Reframing the Debate: A Path Forward or Backward?

[Walter Bosley]

Even though I agree that some of the arguments made in the 'Reframing' circle are arguably flawed, I think the point of the whole thing is that the ETH proponents can often be as flawed in their dedication to it being the answer. The ETH is not as solid an explanation in all cases as some think it is and other possibilities should indeed get as much consideration. I'm not in the camp that says those other possibilities eliminate the ET possibility. That would be ridiculous. I say there are ETs and there are other things and neither explain all the cases. The problem ETH fans have is when someone suggests that one of those other possibilities may better explain a certain case (take your pick). But there will be a bunch of senseless discussion and debate and even arguments between the factions anyway.

 

[Thomas R Morrison]

Even though I agree that some of the arguments made in the 'Reframing' circle are arguably flawed, I think the point of the whole thing is that the ETH proponents can often be as flawed in their dedication to it being the answer. The ETH is not as solid an explanation in all cases as some think it is and other possibilities should indeed get as much consideration. I'm not in the camp that says those other possibilities eliminate the ET possibility. That would be ridiculous. I say there are ETs and there are other things and neither explain all the cases. The problem ETH fans have is when someone suggests that one of those other possibilities may better explain a certain case (take your pick). But there will be a bunch of senseless discussion and debate and even arguments between the factions anyway.

I don't know if any of the ETH advocates around here think that it explains away all anomalous reports - I certainly don't. It's a big, weird old cosmos - I'm sure there are all kinds of rare exotic phenomena that we've haven't even begun to understand yet (like the kinds of inexplicable events at the Skinwalker Ranch, and black-eyed children, and on and on).

But I think the ETH is by far the best hypothesis for explaining the anomalous solid technological devices that are frequently reported in our skies by credible witnesses. That's only a sliver of the paranormal realm though, and I'm sure that the kinds of things that Dr. Barry Taff has investigated, for example, have very different explanations that remain well beyond our comprehension and almost certainly have nothing to do with extraterrestrials.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Paranormal is left field until you clean up the field and use science investigations which is not loaded / bias with all types of agendas it will keep rumbling on. Yes , Chris idea and his science partners are on the right track but how do we know the force has not already moved onto another type of activity in its actions. NASA and other space agencies don't just focus on the mundane research rocket propulsion like it or not they have to follow the rules of a the money funders. The George Knapp story on Mr Lazar not the so called "ET" stuff rather the method the story came about and having seen the triangle craft which was massive not some small stealth bomber . The off world civilisation of which late John Keel , Richard Dolan is just another meme being thrown into the mix whatever the technology is all humanity has right to know unless it's there to stop rogue nations using nuclear weapons on mass scale . Nuclear Physicist Stanton Friedman, was interview on another podcast which he was spot on nations keep secrets which none of us will know if going to protect the humanity from nuclear holocaust.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Classified unmanned/manned space operations could actually explain as much as the ETH (some would argue more). And I don't think ufology is less 'left field' than the paranormal field, though I agree that the field does need some housecleaning, as does ufology. I think we here are open to options, yes, but there are those out there who are not.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Classified unmanned/manned space operations could actually explain as much as the ETH (some would argue more). And I don't think ufology is less 'left field' than the paranormal field, though I agree that the field does need some housecleaning, as does ufology. I think we here are open to options, yes, but there are those out there who are not.

Yes, Ufology? the lable. Agree like all classified research in companies which is protected as other discipline Walter no doubt those nations have a right to protect themselves as Staton suggest. Your stuff on MKULTRA is another topic which horrid as nuclear experiments of the past towards armed forces and civilisans. It will be intresting in next decade what types of sighting will occur and agree housecleaning. This forum has folks who want to research on the topic of para-normal not coolie driven stuff like the brothers. not infightng discourse which occurs each week when the two hosts ask questions . Gene and Chris do a excellent job with limited budget and the money from a Elon Musk would help using the computer experts on this forum.

 

[Johnny Nonsense]

The entire notion that an advanced species that can transit the stars needs to personally collect soil samples or gouge or bodies for medical samples is ludicrous at best. Even we can complete non invasive procedures without sawing off someone's arm and then reattach it or by sexually violati g us...we also know how to collect samples from other planets robotically. Are you trying to say that all those scenes of aliens scrambling about the ground and collecting bits of earth actually makes sense?

Do you know something about how advanced the plant-collectors are? Do you know that the ones doing the collecting are not robots themselves? Do you know something about the expense of sending one of these robots off to collect some planets? Should these robots abide by some standards of elegance when going about their plant collecting tasks?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I don't see why ET society's wouldnt see the earth as a treasure trove of biotechnology in the exact same way we do, indeed a case could be made that its "alien" aspect offers them new and novel things they didn't get on their planet/s of origin.

• New Era for Biology, Personalized Medicine
• Why Are There Males and Females?
• Control of Cellular Scaffold
• Single-Molecule DNA Sequencing Advances
• Spread of Insecticide Resistance Mosquitoes
• Microorganisms With Potential to Treat HIV?
• Mycobacteria May Know When Disease Is Coming
• Imperfect Actor in Plant Biotechnology
• New Butterfly Species Has Set of 46 Chromosomes
• Synthetic Biology and Bioengineering

Biotechnology News

World's smallest tape recorder is built from microbes: Microscopic data recorder takes advantage of CRISPR to monitor biological surroundings

Flies could help to monitor disease outbreaks by acting as 'autonomous bionic drones' suggest scientists

Genome of Leishmania reveals how this parasite adapts to environmental changes: Scientists demonstrate that Leishmania adaptation results from frequent and reversible chromosomal amplifications

The argument that it makes no sense to travel millions of light years to do this, only makes sense if traveling millions of light years is a problem for them, If it isn't then its no more unusual than sail-ships traveling to the orient for tea and spices, or the Americas for tropical fruits and vegetables. New World crops - Wikipedia

Yabut, what's up w/ the lame retro tech featuring gross-sized implants vs. nano-sized, or lighting up their "craft" like Xmas trees, or any example of tricksterish behavior? What's up w/ all the countless examples of amateurish theatricality? Who cares about the speed of light, what's the speed of dark?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Paranormal is left field until you clean up the field and use science investigations which is not loaded / bias with all types of agendas it will keep rumbling on. Yes , Chris idea and his science partners are on the right track but how do we know the force has not already moved onto another type of activity in its actions. ...

When we get the SLVCMP off the ground the most we can hope for is providing scientific data that will establish what we are NOT dealing with.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Sounds great Chris and on another aspect of how fast technology in human sense regarding robotic just need to look at "Osseointegration" which is helping wounded Veteran who lost limbs in combat action.

. The advancements in technology going to change the landscape like all inventions drip feed then bang its surrounds our society. Now if the rock star was really interested in finding answers he pop on this forum and say to Chris. Here, my son , would you like some cash for yaha instead it seems they keep spreading the "Green ET Agenda.

 

[Burnt State]

Do you know something about how advanced the plant-collectors are? Do you know that the ones doing the collecting are not robots themselves? Do you know something about the expense of sending one of these robots off to collect some planets? Should these robots abide by some standards of elegance when going about their plant collecting tasks?

The issue is just how many samples have been collected in crude and silly ways up against Sagan's notion that you might need to zap a sample every two or three thousand years as opposed to every few months or so. The very notion of an advanced space faring technological society needing to send a ship down with a bunch of robots or bio forms like they're on a field trip is ridiculous to say the least. So much of what takes place during close encounter cases is patently non-sensical and appears to be a show being put on for the witness's benefit. So it's not about elegance so much as common sense. If you need to collect info and you've got advanced tech capacity why even bother landing on the planet to add to the theatricality of our lives? Just beam that shit up Scotty.

Similarly some of the failed abduction events such as Cisco Grove and Dechmont woods also beg the question of why send incompetent robots out to collect life form samples from Earth? I mean how do you come all this way across the Galaxy but you can't successfully get a human out of a tree or from a field where he's standing? How does that even begin to make sense?

However, if this whole ongoing soil sample collection thing works for you as being perfectly reasonable then there's no way any of this will change your mind. The only people I see accepting the surrealism that is contained within close encounter cases are ETH believers. And as you can tell I'm more about doubt and agnosticism when it comes to this stuff.

 

[mike]

Yabut, what's up w/ the lame retro tech featuring gross-sized implants vs. nano-sized, or lighting up their "craft" like Xmas trees, or any example of tricksterish behavior? What's up w/ all the countless examples of amateurish theatricality? Who cares about the speed of light, what's the speed of dark?

Scents that make you trackable, indoors and out. Nanocrystals that stick to your body, and light up on night-vision goggles. Miniradar that maps your location on Google Earth.

You can run, but you'll learn it's hard to hide from a new range of military tech.


Crazy Military Tracking Tech, From Super Scents to Quantum Dots

And yet we still use these.

Lotek GPS Wildlife Collars


Maybe the larger implant works better from the observation blind than the nanotrackers
(In this case the moon most likely)

It may just be a case of comparative technology, just as the military have better gear than wildlife researchers do here on earth.
Multiple ET societys, with multiple technology bases, and motivations and degrees of care. Just like us, sometimes we are not covert when dealing with animals sometimes we are.

As for tricksterish behavior and amateurish theatricality that's in the eyes of the beholder. Its all relative.
To a Vegan a steak is a cruel and nasty mess on a plate, to a carnivore one cooked to their preference with all the trimmings is a good thing.

There can never be a uniform answer to any of these questions. As the single sole sentient species we have ever acknowledged thats an easy mistake to make.

 

[Thomas R Morrison]

Yabut, what's up w/ the lame retro tech featuring gross-sized implants vs. nano-sized, or lighting up their "craft" like Xmas trees, or any example of tricksterish behavior? What's up w/ all the countless examples of amateurish theatricality?

I was thinking today about our discussion about all of the weird things that human beings get up to - and how we should expect to be even more perplexed by the variety of behaviors from alien entities. It occurred to me that human abductions/torments could be nothing more than a dark source of amusement for extraterrestrials, like cow-tipping: "look how petrified this weird monkey gets when I stick this 6-inch needle in its eye, hee-hee." Or maybe there's a demand for intense visceral experiences in their civilization, and they record our neurological responses to play them back for personal thrills, like we saw in that wonderful film Strange Days. Perhaps the freaky incident that you experienced as a child confronting that eerie 2-dimension creature, was the equivalent of a prank you'd see on the old show Candid Camera.

The point being - if other intelligent beings are as a weird and random and as sinister as we are for amusement, then it would crazy to expect them to play it straight with us and pass up all of these sordid and sundry opportunities to mess with us, while we blindly grope in the dark wondering if we're alone in the universe.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Like Lance Moody , who keeps this field grounded and gives a science position which is healthy. However, these interactions of some type of force has clues but no answers except the technology which they must know sooner or later will come out and then they most likely moved onto something else.

 

[Thomas R Morrison]

Like Lance Moody , who keeps this field grounded and gives a science position which is healthy. However, these interactions of some type of force has clues but no answers except the technology which they must know sooner or later will come out and then they most likely moved onto something else.

See - I doubt that last part, because ever since this phenomenon first appeared en masse (shortly after we murdered over 200,000 innocent civilians with two atomic bombs), the performance characteristics of the devices that we've seen in the skies have been intriguingly consistent across a wide range of very different-looking craft. Apparently the same field propulsion principle is exploited by a wide variety of advanced exosolar civilizations. I don't think that's going to change once we figure out how to manufacture craft with similar capabilities.

So my position is very simple: let's find out. Let's get all of the rigorous scientific data about these devices that we can, and see if we can figure out how to replicate it. Then we can see which one of us is right.

 

[mike]

So my position is very simple: let's find out. Let's get all of the rigorous scientific data about these devices that we can

The debate can be resolved two ways as i see it

A. They make full contact and tell us what we want to know
B. We develop the technology's to answer the question for ourselves

They either give us a fish, or teach us to fish.

Either they will answer the question, or we will answer it for ourselves via the scientific approach you advocate.

I think its the best way for us, it gives us a chance to develop the language the technological parity that lets us walk into the galactic club room as equals.
And based on the current way things are playing out, it looks like they want it that way too.

 

[Burnt State]

How much radar is in operation every day? How many UFOs visit earth everyday? 10……20.....30? 30 is a conservative estimate after knocking 95% of sightings off the top. Where's the evidence?

i say good luck to those who want to throw hard science at the problem. I suspect you'll be waiting an incredibly long time for results.

 

[Burnt State]

See - I doubt that last part, because ever since this phenomenon first appeared en masse (shortly after we murdered over 200,000 innocent civilians with two atomic bombs), the performance characteristics of the devices that we've seen in the skies have been intriguingly consistent across a wide range of very different-looking craft. Apparently the same field propulsion principle is exploited by a wide variety of advanced exosolar civilizations. I don't think that's going to change once we figure out how to manufacture craft with similar capabilities.

So my position is very simple: let's find out. Let's get all of the rigorous scientific data about these devices that we can, and see if we can figure out how to replicate it. Then we can see which one of us is right.

If they enjoy torturing us so much why bother to visit extra following mass murder? Why not sir back and wait for us to finish ourselves off? Technically we're less violent now than we were before ....why have extra interest?

And ufology has had very distinct waves and patterns in terms of styles of ships over the last 120 years, and there are many exceptions to the rules as well as different patterns regionally. There's nothing homogenous about it. You seem to want to force a version of events onto the phenomenon that simply does not exist. Airships, saucers, rivets, glass, spiderwebs, insectoid, ghost rockets, rocket ships, wings, triangles, spheres, tanks, flying hotels, planks, diamonds, balls of light, shifting molten material, foo fighters, size changing, shape shifting, duplicating ghosts and on and on the list goes. And of course Wonders in the Sky tells us the phenomenon is significantly older. You are forcing a narrative on top of it that is simply not true.

 

[mike]

Two very odd assertions there.
Define torture, its all relative. To a card carrying PETA member the animals at the abattoir are being tortured, to the butcher they are being processed.
And on what basis do you claim they enjoy the activity ?

The second question seems simple enough. Nuclear weapons wont just finish us off, they could kill everything from the insects up
Q: Would it be possible to kill ALL of Earth’s life with nuclear bombs?
Study: 'Small' Nuclear War Would Destroy The World

That might be an issue with the guys who consider this particular biofactory their property.

Imagine you had a rental property and the tenant turned out to be a nutter. If he hangs himself in the garage, not too big a deal. If he burns the house to the ground while hes inside, thats a problem.

The disparity of styles can easily be accounted for by the variables already presented. Some are not ET's, some are misidentified elements of a terrestrial nature.
Of the rest we may be looking at very large numbers of individual ET society's, each with their own style and technological evolution.

 

[Walter Bosley]

I'm always amused at the conversation about UFOs veering into what a pile of shit humanity is, assuming the ETs are oh so beyond us in every way, especially morally and ethically, etc. LOL

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

See - I doubt that last part, because ever since this phenomenon first appeared en masse (shortly after we murdered over 200,000 innocent civilians with two atomic bombs), the performance characteristics of the devices that we've seen in the skies have been intriguingly consistent across a wide range of very different-looking craft. Apparently the same field propulsion principle is exploited by a wide variety of advanced exosolar civilizations. I don't think that's going to change once we figure out how to manufacture craft with similar capabilities.

So my position is very simple: let's find out. Let's get all of the rigorous scientific data about these devices that we can, and see if we can figure out how to replicate it. Then we can see which one of us is right.

Yes and what happens if science cannot find the answers?