Religion

[Bob Watson]

I read the post on Jesus on if he existed or not. I Don't beleve he did. BUT I feel its how we conduct our lives. Jim Baker Peter Poppoff and jimmy swagart call themselves Chistians. so did Hitler. Bin ladin called himself a "lion of Islam" But honestly were they servants of the powers they claimed to serve?
for evey Jim baker there is a mother tresia. for every Hitler there is a deli Lama.
its following the TEACHING of these thAT i FEEL SHOULD BE FOLLOWED. for example
John paul II went to see mother tresia. when he arived he found she was not there. He was angry after all it had been aranged and he was the POPE. so the nuns found her and told the pope she would not come. the pope in anger went to her. and found her feeding and washing the feet of lepers. "why did you not come when i called? I am POPE." he asked her. she looked at him and said "I do the work of the LORD who YOU will kneel to." she went back to her work.
NOW if the pope had thrown off his rings and his rich vestments and his gold shoes and sold the gold cross he wore. and joined her in the work I would be one of those calling for him to be a saint. But truly it is all that is good and rich in the heart of man that speaks of religion.
I hold my daughters every night Give them warm milk I make sure they are loved and cared for.why? not becuse A God comands but it is right and good.
its not the size of the sancuary its if you do the things that was taught.
Religion is that guidepost. and even if the teacher is absent. then you can still find wisdom. and who can be that teacher? I showed even Charly Chaplin can be one. and so can you. so I hope that this can be civil and not lead to personal attacks on some ones faith.
I close with the words of Robert Ingesoll: HANDS THAT HELP ARE FAR BETTER STILL THEN LIPS THAT PRAY.
and that is the core of what I live by.
BOB

 

[mike]

But religion is not a prerequisite for good deeds.

There is no need for an equation that joins the two concepts.

Humanity can do the right thing by each other, the other creatures here and the planet as a whole without the need for superstition and belief in imaginary beings.

Religion is NOT that guidepost, thats a sad indictment of humanity

Can I be a good person without religion? Many religious people do not seem to think so. I once connected my morality with religion too, believing that apart from religion there was no way to define morality. However, the longer I live the more I realize there are bad people who claim to be religious and there good people who do not believe in the existence of a god.

To go one step further, some of the meanest and most depraved of mind that I have known in my life were religious. Moreover, I know a man who is one of the most honorable humans I have ever met – and he is an agnostic atheist. This fact alone breaks down the argument that humans need religion to be moral.
In fact, although we very seldom have this choice, I would rather choose leaders without any religious affiliation. Just look at what George Bush has done to the world with his brand of Christianity. Look at what Osama bin Laden has done with his version of Islam.
There are some who believe religion could help rid the world of its moral ills. However, I cannot help but wonder if religion is not what helped to usher in these moral ills in the first place.

You do not need religion to be moral « de-conversion

Outside of the context of religion, I could not lie, cheat or steal and think that some god would forgive the deed and thus make my sin not really count. I could no longer wait for some unseen hand to supernaturally feed the poor or to help the weak.
Moreover, I could not sit idle when I see others do evil because I no longer believed they would get their due in the next life or burn in hell. If anything, my religious upbringing held me back from being a truly moral person.

 

[stonehart]

nice post but Mother Teresa was no saint really.

"Christopher Hitchens, author of The Missionary Position, believes Mother Teresa was not a friend of the poor but of poverty"

Mother Teresa Was a Fraud

Mother Teresa: Where are her millions? - TRUTH IS GOD

Christopher Hitchens Interview

Sam Harris "A letter to a Christian Nation" is very much worth reading.

I do not expect this to be a popular post and simply do not care.

Peace and out.

 

[mike]

The whole sin/forgiveness aspect of religion negates the entire premise.

A person who has helped out at soup kitchens and animal shelters all their adult life goes to hell because he/she doesnt believe in jesus, but a serial killer on death row, can accept jesus, confess his sins, eat his last meal of fried chicken, and then spend eternity in heaven.

How can a system where you commit the sin, get absolution, and then commit the sin again, knowing all you have to do is confess and light a few candles and its all forgiven, possibly be a signpost for good moral behaviour.

Religion encourages sin, buy handing out get out of jail free cards, it removes the natural safeguard of conscience from the equation.
People should own their ill deeds, it should weigh on their minds when they do wrong, instead they are "forgiven" and wash their hands of their crimes.

When i worked at a busy sydney hospital i could always spot someone who was lost, and i always no matter how busy i was took the time to help them, often taking them to the dept they were after personally, and introducing them to the desk clerks.
I didnt do it for a heavenly reward, i did it because helping people is the right thing to do.

Doing good for good's sake is far nobler than doing it because religion says i should, or in return for a plate at the pearly buffet

 

[mike]

Morality without religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A variety of positions are apparent regarding the relationship between religion and morality. Some believe that religion is necessary as a guide to a moral life. This idea has been with us for nearly 2,000 years.[1]:5 Others see no requirement for religion to provide a guide to right and wrong behavior. Various commentators have supported this position. Others have offered further thoughts regarding how this idea has arisen. For example, Greg Epstein suggests that this idea is connected to a concerted effort by theists to question nonreligious ideas: "conservative authorities have, since ancient days, had a clever counterstrategy against religious skepticism—convincing people that atheism is evil, and then accusing their enemies of being atheists."[1]:7 Some believe that religions actually provide poor guides to moral behavior. Various commentators, such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are among those who have asserted this view.

Secular ethics is a branch of moral philosophy in which ethics is based solely on human faculties such as logic, reason or moral intuition, and not derived from purported supernatural revelation or guidance (which is the source of religious ethics). Secular ethics comprises any ethical system that does not draw on the supernatural, such as humanism, secularism and freethinking.

The very fact that there are "good" and moral people who dont believe in the supernatural proves that morals and ethics do not come from a supernatural source.

We do not need superstitious religious frameworks in order to be good.

Goods "value" is far far higher without such things

 

[stonehart]

The whole sin/forgiveness aspect of religion negates the entire premise.

A person who has helped out at soup kitchens and animal shelters all their adult life goes to hell because he/she doesnt believe in jesus, but a serial killer on death row, can accept jesus, confess his sins, eat his last meal of fried chicken, and then spend eternity in heaven.

How can a system where you commit the sin, get absolution, and then commit the sin again, knowing all you have to do is confess and light a few candles and its all forgiven, possibly be a signpost for good moral behaviour.

Religion encourages sin, buy handing out get out of jail free cards, it removes the natural safeguard of conscience from the equation.
People should own their ill deeds, it should weigh on their minds when they do wrong, instead they are "forgiven" and wash their hands of their crimes.

When i worked at a busy sydney hospital i could always spot someone who was lost, and i always no matter how busy i was took the time to help them, often taking them to the dept they were after personally, and introducing them to the desk clerks.
I didnt do it for a heavenly reward, i did it because helping people is the right thing to do.

Doing good for good's sake is far nobler than doing it because religion says i should, or in return for a plate at the pearly buffet

Very good post.

I have had this argument with a street preacher before. I was told that as an Atheist I could not have any moral fiber or ethics. My answer was simply that which has been echoed many times by greater thinkers than myself.. If you are moral only because god tells you to be then where dose that leave you? Would you then go mad a shoot people? would you steal because you have no god?

I am moral because I chose to be not because I am told to be by some sky daddy. Most people do the right thing for exactly that it is the right thing to do.. no gods or scripture needed.

 

[mike]

Well said, im astounded at this OP to be honest, Morality does not need gods or scripture, the two concepts do not belong in the same equation.
They are seperate entities that do not rely on each other for validation.

Its offensive to suggest that man can't be moral without instructions or signposts from some imaginary being in the sky.

Its a very old counterstrategy against religious skepticism—convincing people that atheism is evil, and then accusing their enemies of being atheists.

 

[stonehart]

 

[mike]

Exactly......

There is something deeply wrong with a culture where a parent teaches a child that some poor bastard nailed to a plank and tortured to death, is a thing to be admired and worshiped.
That the symbolic drinking of this poor sods blood and eating of his flesh is "good", and will reap you a reward.

Its no wonder we seem alone in the cosmos, who in their right minds would land on the lawns of a culture that thought such obvious barbarity was a "good" thing.

 

[mike]

If anything a strong case can be made religion is terrible reference for morality

I kill ... I wound ...
I will make my arrows
drunk with blood,
and my sword shall devour flesh.
—Deuteronomy 32.39-42

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

a man against his father,​

a daughter against her mother,​

a daughter—in—law against her mother—in—law—​

36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household [Micah 7:6]​

37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

Did you know, for example, that God:

• Forced friends and family to kill each other for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf?
• Burned Aaron's sons to death for offering him strange fire?
• Burned complainers to death, forced the survivors to eat quail until it literally came out their noses, sent "fiery serpents" to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water, and killed 14,700 for complaining about his killings?
• Buried alive those that opposed Moses (along with their families)?
• Burned 250 men to death for burning incense?
• Rewarded Phinehas for throwing a spear though the bellies of an inter-tribal couple while they were having sex?
• Ordered, assisted in, or approved of dozens of complete genocides?
• Accepted human sacrifice in the cases of Jephthah's daughter and Saul's seven sons?
• Helped Samson murder thirty men for their clothes, slaughter 1000 with the jawbone of an ass, and kill 3000 civilians in a a suicide terrorist attack?
• Smote the Philistines of several cities with hemorrhoids in their secret parts?
• Killed a man for trying to keep the ark of the covenant from falling and 50,070 for looking into the ark?
• Approved when David bought his first wife with 200 Philistine foreskins?
• Killed King Saul for not killing every Amalekite as he told him to do?
• Slowly killed a baby to punish King David for committing adultery?
• Killed 70,000 because David had a census that he (or Satan) told him to do?
• Sent a lion to kill a prophet for believing another prophet's lie, another lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet, and some more lions to kill people that didn't fear him enough?
• Killed 450 religious leaders who lost a prayer contest with Elijah and burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill?
• Sent two bears to rip apart 42 boys for making fun of Elisha's bald head?
• Killed 27,000 Syrians by having a wall fall on them, sent an angel to kill 185,000 sleeping soldiers, interfered in human battles to kill a half million Israelite and a million Ethiopian soldiers?
• Killed King Ahab for not killing a captured king, and then sent King Jehu on a series of mass murders to kill all of Ahab's family and friends who had ever "pissed against a wall?"
• Killed Jehoram by making his bowels fall out?
• Killed Job's ten children in a bet with Satan?
• Killed Ezekiel's wife and told him not to mourn her?
• Killed Ananias and Sapphira for not giving Peter all their money?
• Killed King Herod by feeding him to worms?

All of these killings, and more, are found in the Bible, and the God of the Bible is proud of each one.

Drunk With Blood, God's killings in the Bible

Religion is that guidepost.

The signpost should read, Wrong way, Go back

 

[stonehart]

If anything a strong case can be made religion is terrible reference for morality

I kill ... I wound ...
I will make my arrows
drunk with blood,
and my sword shall devour flesh.
—Deuteronomy 32.39-42

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

a man against his father,​

a daughter against her mother,​

a daughter—in—law against her mother—in—law—​

36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household [Micah 7:6]​

37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."


Drunk With Blood, God's killings in the Bible



The signpost should read, Wrong way, Go back

In short a psychopath.

 

[mike]

Exactly,
Another example via that great vid you PM'd me

god could just send those who are unworthy of heaven back to oblivion, the same state of nothing we each and everyone of us were in prior to being born and the resulting cognitive function that followed.

Why punish with an eternity in hell. an equivilent scenario would be a savage dog gets lose and attacks the public. The procedure is we catch and humanely put the beast down. In this case man is more moral than god (proving we dont need gods as a moral compass)

What we dont do, is torture the unfortunate creature in a burning pit , in enduring agony and fire for as long as we can.....

But god does, and he makes that torment eternal to boot.
He could simply, humanely consign sinners to oblivion, like we do with a dangerous dog
But no......
Where is the moral guidance in that example ?

Now dont get me wrong, god didnt kill anybody,the drunk with blood quote refers to an imaginary being, thus imaginary arrows and imaginary blood.
In many examples like noah its just a fairytale it didnt happen, the other deaths we see in the bible were perpetrated by men.

But, and here is why religion is NOT a moral compass, those acts were justified as being by gods command, a deed that by modern standards is rightly, instinctively seen as abhorent, becomes just and righteous since yaweh said so.

Thats why religion is not a moral compass, because its been used and is still used today as a justification to commit acts of barbarity and cruelty.
Exorcisms that have ended in death...

Religion has been and is still used to justify behaviour that is not moral or good.

The very first step to a uniform moral code for humanity, is to get rid of religion
It clouds and confuses the issue something shocking

 

[stonehart]

I guess that is the final word in the argument (not that any here posting disagree with you).

Morality is not given by a god or gods but is derived from the actions of the community around you.

 

[Voyager]

I guess that is the final word in the argument (not that any here posting disagree with you).

Morality is not given by a god or gods but is derived from the actions of the community around you.

I agree.

 

[tyder001]

I gotta be honest with y'all. Except for the first post Voyager made (which was nicely put) I didn't read the rest of the thread. I'm just burned out on propaganda both pro and con when it comes to religion. But, I did see Ben Franklin in a pic up there with other useful idiots. Relax, I'm kidding, I kid the atheist. However, I think Ben believed (as do I) in reincarnation. Otherwise, I am done as soon as possible with this thread. I like a good debate and civil discussion but so far on religion that seems impossible here. No offense to anybody here. If I can be so bold as to say this: If you do have a reply you can private message me and we can talk. Otherwise, as far as religion (especially Christianity) on the paracast forums is concerned I'm done.
Peace
Steve

Benjamin Franklin

"I look upon death to be as necessary to the constitution as sleep. We shall rise refreshed in the morning." And, "Finding myself to exist in the world, I believe I shall, in some shape or other always exist."

The Body of B. Franklin, Printer, Like the Cover of an Old Book, Its Contents Torn Out And Stripped of its Lettering and Gilding, Lies Here Food for Worms, But the Work shall not be Lost, For it Will as He Believed Appear Once More In a New and more Elegant Edition Revised and Corrected By the Author.

 

[Bob Watson]

I expected passionate responsives I agree that religion in many ways causes harm and teaches ill. However I can glan truth from those source and move forward. Its the quest for truth in any point.mike and stone I honor and repect your opinion.and agree in many points.but I think its always going to be that personal choine in the end.
Bob

 

[tyder001]

Opps, I meant the first post by vesvehighfolk not voyager. Sorry, now I'm gone. No, really.

 

[Voyager]

I agree.

I just now heard thunder. It clouded up late in the evening. Has been a low energy day for me. There was some spheres zipping around

Opps, I meant the first post by vesvehighfolk not voyager. Sorry, now I'm gone. No, really.

I will reply anyway:

What is important is that people retain the freedom to believe in whatever they choose. You cannot place all Christians into one single category. There is such a wide spectrum of practices and beliefs. You cannot place the followers of John Hagee into the same category as the Amish. Our lack of knowledge and understanding about the origins of the Universe and the mystery of life creates a void, an emptiness that needs to be filled. Many intelligent people subscribe to Christianity. Years ago I was corresponding with a physicist named Lambert Dolphin. He was a physicist at Stanford Research Institute. He was part of: “A Joint Egyptian-American research team conducted electromagnetic sounder experiments during autumn 1974 with the primary objective of locating archaeologically significant chambers in the Giza area.”
://Electromagnetic Sounder Experiments at the Pyramids of Giza
We discussed the Rosicrucian’s claims about the Great Pyramid. He followed up our discussion by sending me a religious pamphlet he published. Lambert Dolphin's Library
One complaint I have always had about all religions is that I don’t like to be judged. We should all practice what we preach.

 

[mike]

Thanks Guys,
I think the dangerous dog example really nails the case.

When a dangerous dog commits the ultimate transgression, its humanely put down, not tortured in a burning pit for as long as possible

Clearly Humans are more moral than a god, would would torture for eternity, those who transgress against his rules.

 

[stonehart]

I gotta be honest with y'all. Except for the first post Voyager made (which was nicely put) I didn't read the rest of the thread. I'm just burned out on propaganda both pro and con when it comes to religion. But, I did see Ben Franklin in a pic up there with other useful idiots. Relax, I'm kidding, I kid the atheist. However, I think Ben believed (as do I) in reincarnation. Otherwise, I am done as soon as possible with this thread. I like a good debate and civil discussion but so far on religion that seems impossible here. No offense to anybody here. If I can be so bold as to say this: If you do have a reply you can private message me and we can talk. Otherwise, as far as religion (especially Christianity) on the paracast forums is concerned I'm done.
Peace
Steve

Benjamin Franklin

"I look upon death to be as necessary to the constitution as sleep. We shall rise refreshed in the morning." And, "Finding myself to exist in the world, I believe I shall, in some shape or other always exist."

The Body of B. Franklin, Printer, Like the Cover of an Old Book, Its Contents Torn Out And Stripped of its Lettering and Gilding, Lies Here Food for Worms, But the Work shall not be Lost, For it Will as He Believed Appear Once More In a New and more Elegant Edition Revised and Corrected By the Author.

I hear you man