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Remembrance day 2016
- Thread starter Han
- Start date
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Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Lest we forget - what exactly? Does anyone even know? How about: ... lest we forget how easy it is for people regardless of their homeland, to get sucked into going to war for corrupt business, political, or religious leaders who are hungry for power instead of saying "No, I won't go. Go fight your own war." Heavens no! We can't say that! That is deemed to be downright unpatriotic, criminal even. Why exactly? Don't think about it too much or you might not be too popular among the war hero fan club crowd because there would have been no war to create heroes in, no enemy to kill or need defense against.
In fact the only enemy left would be the psychopaths who force or manipulate the otherwise innocent and uninvolved people into war in the first place. They are the true enemy, and they tend to hide at safe distances from the actual battles, watching from the sidelines, orchestrating events so that their investments perform and the lines on their maps move in the right direction for their interests. So yes, lest we forget that they are the real enemy. Oh wait, it seems we've already forgotten. Remember WWII, the war in Iraq? How many more will it take before the phrase, "Lest We Forget" actually registers where it counts?
Us And Them
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When I see what I consider to be an absolutely mind bendingly stupid remark like this ufology ... and by the way I mean your remark NOT YOU, I have to really chuckle.
Tell me, how would you have handled the Nazi menace in 1939-1945? Would you have invited Hitler to tea?
How would you have handled the Japanese menace when they attacked the US, attacked Great Britain, when they sunk British warships, etc.?
How would you have reacted to North Korea and then the Communist Chinese when they attacked and invaded South Korea?
Would you have ignored our obligations with the SEATO treaty and allowed the communist Vietnamese to overrun South Vietnam ... which they did when the Democratic majority in Congress cut off the funds to the Vietnamese in 1975?
How would you have reacted when the Islamic terrorists attacked NYC and Washington DC in Sept. of 2001 ... and what would you do about ISIS today? I really would like to know.
What all you "progressives" fail to understand is ... sometimes there really are some very evil bastards out there that simply would like to kill your asses just because .... they can.
Decker
DaveM
Paranormal Adept
My father fought in the Pacific theatre during World War II. In particular on the island of Okinawa. The gist of the battle was that the Japanese were entrenched in caves throughout the island. The way the US troops had to remove the Japanese was with flame throwers and grenades. That meant getting close to the mouth of the cave.
My Dad said a lot of good men lost their lives that way. There was a different mindset seventy years ago. The Japanese were going to fight to the last man. If we had invaded Japan it was estimated there might be a million casualties. People were weary of war and a majority approved of using atomic weapons after the fact. It is easy to look through the lens to the past and say we never should have used those weapons. It did end the war quickly. Thankfully we haven't had to use those weapons again.
My Dad said a lot of good men lost their lives that way. There was a different mindset seventy years ago. The Japanese were going to fight to the last man. If we had invaded Japan it was estimated there might be a million casualties. People were weary of war and a majority approved of using atomic weapons after the fact. It is easy to look through the lens to the past and say we never should have used those weapons. It did end the war quickly. Thankfully we haven't had to use those weapons again.
Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
I figured you'd have something to say, and you've missed the entire point as I suspected you would. You probably glossed over the part where I said, "regardless of their homeland". The German people were victims of the same propaganda and evil as everyone else. The bombing of Berlin was tragic. People were forced into the war on both sides and then forced into killing each other under threat of death from those who put them there. Meanwhile corporations and banks were playing for both sides. So don't give me weak arguments about Hitler. If nobody had financed him or gone to war for him he'd have been a nobody.
Same point missed. Maybe try watching the excellent Clint Eastwood film Letters From Iwo Jima. Don, the victims were everyone who died, everyone who was forced to fight, everyone who was sucked into fighting, everyone who was injured, every parent who lost children, everyone who suffered, regardless of what side they were on. People are people wherever you go and parents don't like to see their children shipped off to war no matter what side they're on. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone here. I'm doing my sincere part to give real meaning to the phrase, "Lest we forget.", because the whole point seems to be to me, that if we can prevent war, then we should.
Same point again. If everyone in North Korea and South Korea said, "No, I'm going to fight your war." There would have been no war.
I made no deal with SEATO. It's not "my obligation" to fight and kill for politicians anywhere. They can take their propaganda and burn it.
Again you've missed the point I made. ISIS recruits are mostly disenfranchised people with few, if any, other choices, who have been sucked into fighting by religious leaders motivated by their own lust for power and control. If when those nutbar leaders had given their war cry, the people had said, "No. Go fight your own war." There would be no ISIS.
I don't fail to understand that or much else when I put my mind to it. I'm looking at war from a bigger picture than you are. The thing is, the really evil ones are the ones behind the scenes pulling the strings and sucking people in to doing their bidding or forcing them into war under threat. They are the few, and without support from the common people, they couldn't have their wars. The rest of the trouble makers are relatively few and can be handled by local police.
War requires the cooperation of big players and big money or it won't work, and big players with big money don't do the dirty work themselves. They get the common people to do it for them. Without them they can't have their wars. Therefore if people around the world really don't want wars, then they need to oppose those who want to start them, and they need to do it on their home turf and not get sucked in by propaganda and politics.
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Randall
J. Randall Murphy
ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
Maybe you should sit down with US Veterans who were at Iwo Jima and then sit down with a WWII war widows in the US . Maybe even a POW of the Japanese or their wife who nursed him back to health? Thank goodness for US Veterans of WW1,WW2 , Korea, like Don and my brother in laws father a Aussie Vietnam Veteran those commies (China and Russians ) would never stopped . All types of terrorism stinks. Its about remembering the fallen and their families. Keep politics out of it for one day. Veterans and their families live with everyday.
Lest We Forget
Lest We Forget
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Randall
J. Randall Murphy
I have talked with people who were in World War Two. I worked under a German who didn't agree with Hitler's Superior Race propaganda, and down the hall was Brit I used to bring parts to. Both told me some of their experiences. One of them stuck in my mind and I've told it before, but I'll repeat it here again because on Remembrance Day, it deserves to be heard.
As concise as I can make it: It was the Brit who told me how the two sides on an obscure front line in Europe decided they didn't want to get into the nasty business of killing each other and simply setup camp and held their positions. They got to know each other, talked, shared pictures of family, drank coffee together, played cards and agreed that the war was a horrible thing they had been forced into, and just wished it would be over. Eventually higher-up commanders from both sides found out about the situation and visited the lines. They ordered the men to start shooting to kill, or else they would be executed then and there. Now you tell me, who are the really evil ones. Hmm?
BTW: Eastwood did another film related to Letters from Iwo Jima called Flags Of Our Fathers. Together these films are IMO among the best WW2 film ever made, and I wouldn't be surprised if Eastwood did a lot of research for both.
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ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
Ufology, what I am trying to get across is leave it alone for one day man and Don is (bloody hero ) US Green Beret
these men are the best of the best elite and (wounded Police Detective ) proud of meeting his fellow Veterans plus Delta Force, Rangers Veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq Wars few years back in the Normandy at the Omaha Memorial for the fallen ,France for WW2. When some going take your life you understand.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Sorry, but if there ever was a day to get this message across, this is the one day that is most important to do it. I'm also 100% confident in saying that any true war hero ( including @Decker ) would in their heart prefer that the war they had been in had never happened in the first place. This is the message that needs to be delivered, not messages of glory and celebration. If you or they don't see this, then you're either sucked in by the propaganda or part of the evil that feeds the war machine and pushes us toward the next one.
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ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
If you read it right in the first place Remembrance Day is about the fallen and Veterans and families pay their respects.
Wade
FeralNormal master
Perhaps this should be included on the other thread but I'm not adverse to @ufology point. There are a myriad of reasons why these conflicts over the millennial have started with multiple causes that historians will always point out and argue over, point and counterpoint but I do know there is a couple of very distinguished and medaled former officers, one by the name of Smedley D. Butler; the other by that name of Dwight D. Eisenhower who would probably be the among the first to give an ear to what @ufology is saying here. I know I wouldn't shout either of them down and no I'm not saying that's what's happening here.
But at the same time I'm not opposed to giving those who served a day of their own in remembrance. I remember on Memorial Day my father would place flowers at the grave of his mother and later on his dad after he died...neither who served... and I thought it strange because I always thought it was to honor those who died in service, that's what I was conditioned to think. His answer was yes them as well but it's called Memorial Day to memorialize those who died regardless of circumstances. At the time I didn't know Whether that was right or wrong and I didn't care. And I wasn't alone for to a certain extent this memorializing had been done by others. Heck it started as Decoration Day created after the Civil War where we were killing each other. If Veterans get two days to be honored more power to them and even two days isn't enough.
But at the same time I'm not opposed to giving those who served a day of their own in remembrance. I remember on Memorial Day my father would place flowers at the grave of his mother and later on his dad after he died...neither who served... and I thought it strange because I always thought it was to honor those who died in service, that's what I was conditioned to think. His answer was yes them as well but it's called Memorial Day to memorialize those who died regardless of circumstances. At the time I didn't know Whether that was right or wrong and I didn't care. And I wasn't alone for to a certain extent this memorializing had been done by others. Heck it started as Decoration Day created after the Civil War where we were killing each other. If Veterans get two days to be honored more power to them and even two days isn't enough.
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Han
piscator ψ
That is exactly my interpretation of Memorial/Remembrance day.
In England we celebrate Christmas, whilst a huge number of people don't believe in god or Jesus, it is an opportunity to have time off work and spend time with your friends and family.
We were doing this before Christianity arrived in England, it was just called something else (the winter solstice).
I think the North American equivalent is Thanks Giving.
What I am trying to say is that we are individually free to choose, how, or if we, commemorate the dead.
I acknowledge that I am biased because my family been affected by wars, but I don't think I am unique in this, in fact, I think it is impossible to find a Human being that has not been affected by violent conflict.
In other words Remembrance day is my Christmas, it is a day where I reflect on the sacrifice of others, in the hope of the freedom I am so fortunate to enjoy on a daily basis.
My signature says Peace and Love because these are things that I value, but these are not pacifist words, I think it is a very natural thing to be willing to lay down your own life, in the hope of a future for your offspring. I can give multiple examples in animal behaviour.
I don't like saying the following because of how it could be interpreted but: I am convinced that wars are sometimes the only option, of course every possible step should be taken to prevent them, because ultimately it is the little people that suffer the most, but there are times when the "peace" must be protected and fought for, at any cost.
War is never good, just or acceptable, but it is sometimes a necessity.
I respect where Randall is coming from, but I have spent a lot of time studying various conflicts and have learned the further away in time we move from a war, the less understandable it becomes.
I have listened to first hand testimony from both veterans and civilians who endured WWII, and the common theme was that war is hell, but tolerable compared to the prospect of life/death under the Axis.
Thank you everyone for your contributions in this thread.
Best wishes.
Han
piscator ψ
Yes my understanding is that they do, and they are certainly commemorated in the UK ceremonies, my own Grandfather served alongside Canadians in the "Battle for the Atlantic".*
*Battle of the Atlantic
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Let's not start a war over it ... lol.So Ufology, while your sentiment is valid maybe your timing is off a little
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Cat Jockey
Skilled Investigator
Well, join forces with the Bolshevik Menace, a Menace responsible for killing far, far more innocent people than the Nazi Menace, for starters? What do you know of this 'Nazi Menace' in regards to all of the money and support it received from the US PRIOR to Hitler kicking off his World Tour in Poland? Since I brought up the Bolsheviks, what do you know of them, and the funding they received out of New York (Jacob Schiff of Kuhn, Loeb & Co. was involved) and Germany? Or favorable treatment from Britain when Mason and B'nai B'rith member Leiba Bronstein (Leon Trotsky - I guess he thought Trotsky sounded more like a good Russian proletariat, so he changed is name) shipped out of the US (where he was hanign out in New York with the International Bankster types) with fistfulls of cash and was detained in Canada (until Britain ordered Canada to release him.
Are you aware of how much more there is to that 'Nazi Menace' you throw out there than the 'official' stories? Waaaaaaay more than any History book will tell you about it ...
Me? I'd be sayin' "Eh" a lot while watching curling and hockey were I my father's age. You want me to do what? Go get shot at and kill INNOCENT people I don't know who have no ability to invade us and have never done anything wrong to me? No thanks, I'll pass. I'm not a mind reader, but perhaps what UFOlogy is hinting at is that many of these wars are UNNECESSARY and CONTRIVED and are engaged in for reasons other than what you think. Being used as cannon fodder by TPTB for their little pissing contests (and far, far worse and more devious) is not something to celebrate, IMO. I throw that out there since you threw out, "but, but UFOlogy, what about the Nazi Menace? There is no choice but to go to war and kill and be killed." A false dilemma you provide, for there was no Viet Nam menace, PROVEN by the fact that after the US slaughtered 50,000 of its own, along with over 1,000,000 Vietnamese, including old ladies and children, pulled out and lost that war, nothing bad happened to the US, did it? What menace overtook us after the US lost and Viet Nam went Communistic, north and south. How about the LBJ Gulf of Tonkin BS to get people of my parents generation KILLED? Where is your argument of necessity with all of that stuff?
An ounce of prevention is worth an ocean of tears on gravestones in military cemeteries, and those gravestones should cause you to condemn war, not loftily remember it as necessary ...
25,000 children under 5 will die today, Decker. And 25,000 will die the next day. And the day after that. And the day after that. Over 9 million per year, more than multiple wars you want to reminisce about.
Where the hell is their special remembrance day? Where is their HELP? Where is this World's priorities, and who is governing and dictating those priorities?
Don't mistake that as callousness for the loss of life, the cannon fodder the Profane have become, for it is not. It is BROKEN, Decker. The System of Wars you want to venerate and remember as good and necessary is as broke and effed up as it can get and has been since before your birth. Don't believe me or UFOlogy? How 'bout Major General Smedley Butler:
WAR is a racket. It always has been.
It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
In the World War [WWI] a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.
How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?
Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few -- the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill
From Smedley's book, War is a Racket. War Is A Racket, by Major General Smedley Butler, 1935
Indeed, Smedley, indeed. War is a Racket and NOT to be supported or glamorized, and to take pride in the fallen, as people do with Memorial Day, is the WRONG way to go about it ...
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