Rosemary Ellen Guiley 12.07.29

[Red Arrow]

I wonder how many cases there have been where the messages coming from a ouija board claimed to be a real person and gave personal details about where they were born, their name, where they were buried, etc. and these details were later verified to be correct.

It seems like a single verifiable story of that nature would prove one of two things: a) spirits exist, or b) psychic ability exists. In either case, it would prove the existence of something that science generally does not acknowledge. That would be a true smoking gun, in my opinion.

I would also be interested to know that. I know that my brother was never able to confirm any details. Of course, this did happen in the ancient time that was before the internet.

 

[nameless]

Great show guys!! Good to hear one of my fave guests.

 

[SPX]

I would also be interested to know that. I know that my brother was never able to confirm any details. Of course, this did happen in the ancient time that was before the internet.

Yeah, from most of the stories I heard where the "spirit" did give details, they were never able to be verified.

I want a spirit to say, "I am Samuel Jackson Harris, born in Poppycock, Indiana in 1863, and died in that same town in 1952. My grave is in the Holy Ghosts Cemetary on 1224 Oak Wood Lane. I was a tailor. I had two sons, John and Poindexter. John's still alive. You can call him at 901-464-1222."

And then have all that pan out.

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

I have to say that it just makes me laugh to hear people tell spooky tales about a toy. George Noory apparently has a real phobia about them. I almost cracked a rib laughing so hard listening to the Coast to Coast on the drive in this morning. They were talking about the evil unleashed on the world by Ouija boards in one segment with such seriousness and fear in their voices and all I could think was, "It's a toy people." A board with letters and numbers and a marker to point with. Beyond that it is all the operators imaginations and fears playing with them.

So, this website was somewhat disturbing, though for reasons the author probably did not intend:
ZOZO the Ouija Demon | Demons, Ouija Boards | True Ghost Tales

I have to say that Zozo the ouija demon might not be the most dangerous element in the author's home:

One time after ZOZO was being extremely evil, I walked into my bathroom only to see my 1 year old daughter about to drown. Her mother had left her alone in the tub “just for a second” and somehow the water got turned on and was overflowing. Instinctively she had her face tilted up and was seconds from going under when I grabbed her from the water.

I'll go out on a limb and say that leaving your infant/toddler unattended in the bathtub is probably more dangerous than a ouija board.

 

[nameless]

Bozo says "check out these weejer bhoards";

Talking Board Show

 

[SPX]

I have it on good authority that she is a top notch field Investigator. Surely you can't deny the overwhelming evidence (in the form of independent video tapes and the testimony of the fairies themselves)? What about the lilting background track?

Proof. Done.

I literally LOLd.

 

[mike]

I'll go out on a limb and say that leaving your infant/toddler unattended in the bathtub is probably more dangerous than a ouija board.

Quoted for truth

If the child had drowned it would have been the "evil demons" fault, not the fact that a one year old was left in a bath unattended.

Humans seem to be hard wired to blame something rather than shoulder responsibility

 

[starise]

I have done quite a lot of examination and investigation into the ouija board.I have actually studied and continue to study all things UFO and paranormal. I am sure that I'm not alone in this regard in a forum full of others with paranormal interests or questions.So having studied the subject I can't agree with all of Rosemarys conclusions.

I did pick up on the double speak that a few others here noticed in that Rosemary basically portrayed the ouija as an innocent toy at the beginning and then went on to tell us about the entities. I heard Rosemary in another radio show and she did the same exact thing. This made no sense to me at all. It's one way or the other.

There aren't a lot of common avenues to contact entities,or I should say, ways that are now employed by the masses. One of the few seemingly innocent ways is the ouija board. I mean, if you wanted to do it you could try other techniques and probably get similar results but the fact is that this opens up a way to do that regardless of the techniques employed. The results will vary depending on things we can't see and on the individuals involved.

If I were writing a similar book I would be telling everyone to stay away from it. Even given Rosemarys experiences who would want to do it? "They" know us infinitly better than we know "them". The entities have their own agenda. They easily CAN pretend convincingly to be anyone. The old saying about playing with fire well applies here. If you fooled with a ouija board and nothing happened consider yourself very fortunate.

The scenerio usually plays something like this, curious person goes looking for "it".Curious person is surprised that something was really there after all. Curious person is drawn into it. Curious person starts to realize that they are being toyed with. Curious person is no longer curious but the entity may have already attached to them by now. Curious person wants out but can't get away.....the definition of a trap.

 

[trainedobserver]

I have to wonder, "At what point in the process did the entities begin using the toy for their nefarious purposes?" It's a chicken and egg question. Did the entities suddenly notice it after its construction and say, "We can use this!" and suddenly the cosmic protocols are established to allow them to communicate and worse through it? This is to the point where the idea of a Ouija Board is considered the portal to another world. You could make one from a napkin for example. Or did the evil entities cause the Ouija Board to be constructed according to some spectral physics? I find it incredibly hard to believe.

The evidence leads me to believe that it is a toy which draws on the human imagination, playfulness, and deceit inherit in all of us to function.

 

[SPX]

They easily CAN pretend convincingly to be anyone.

This is my primary concern. I mean, if spirits exist, we really don't know anything about their nature. We don't know what they know or don't know, or what their capabilities are. So how could we ever possibly prove that we're talking to who they say we're talking to? I can't come up with a single way to make sure you're not being deceived.

 

[SPX]

The evidence leads me to believe that it is a toy which draws on the human imagination, playfulness, and deceit inherit in all of us to function.

I think you're getting way too caught up in the idea of the board itself having some special property. This is like the skeptic who says, "How could a toy from Milton Bradley have supernatural powers?!"

The thing is that many devices have supposedly been used by spirits to communicate: Ouija boards, tape recorders, computers, telephones, a pen and a piece of paper, and a wide variety of other items. It seems to me--if in fact something unexplained is happening here--that it is the INTENTION to communicate that somehow attracts entities and opens the door. If this is the case, you could just as easily construct your own device and it may very well work.

I think you need to get away from the idea of the board itself having magical properties or using that notion as grounds to discredit reported experiences.

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

Just a couple of thoughts:

Whether you believe ouija boards (or other devices) are legitimate tools for communicating with other entities, or if you find them to be silly toys people use to fool themselves, it seems very hard to disconnect the user from the experience. For people who claim to have dramatically negative events in their life after using a board, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I would really like to know what was going on in their lives anyway, before the ouija board. As Guiley mentioned in the interview, there are quite a few unstable personalities who are drawn to paranormal studies, and I wonder if their experiences don't skew the collection of stories in a certain direction. Moreover, human memories tend to merge with one another, e.g., a group of people share an experience. Interview them immediately and separately, and their accounts differ. Let them talk amongst themselves, and in time their accounts tend to become more unified. Elderly combat veterans sometimes even have memories of anachronistic elements in their service history, often influenced by film and television.

Again, I'm not discounting anyone's experience, I'm just arguing for the role of expectation and malleable memory. I once attended a presentation by a well-known ghost researcher who, before playing his collection of EVPs, handed out a script of what the EVPs said. To me, the EVPs sounded like "mkjhniugcabcn," or static, but maybe if I put more faith in the script I would have heard, "I am a carpenter, and this is my brother John."

Another thing I was thinking of is how people sometimes say that something is just a product of the imagination or the unconscious. The part of this I would disagree with is the word "just." In my opinion, the imagination and the unconscious act as quite potent forces within people, not just with ouija boards but in life in general. As someone suggested earlier in this thread, one may sometimes externalize things from within yourself, and it's easier to accept that occasional malevolence as an Other.

I watched a bit of a documentary about a horse trainer, maybe the horse whisperer dude. He said something like, "A horse is a window into the owner's soul." That may sound corny, but did you ever notice that people with problems tend to have problem pets?

 

[trainedobserver]

It seems to me--if in fact something unexplained is happening here--that it is the INTENTION to communicate that somehow attracts entities and opens the door.

I don't think there is evidence that mental intention or belief has to do with anything other than the mind and actions of the individual. The actions of the individual driven by their intention and directed by their beliefs is what causes change to occur in the physical world. If intention is truly the instigating factor for this phenomena, then I think that is a significant clue as to the true location of the activity, the mind.

I think you need to get away from the idea of the board itself having magical properties or using that notion as grounds to discredit reported experiences.

Whether you are talking about a talisman, a fetish, or something else putting someone in mystical contact with entities you have to deal with what I call the cosmic protocols or mechanisms that supposedly bring these things about. Saying it is all about intention is ascribing some special power to a mental process (if it can even be called that) which doesn't appear to exist in any real way.

 

[SPX]

Again, I'm not discounting anyone's experience, I'm just arguing for the role of expectation and malleable memory. I once attended a presentation by a well-known ghost researcher who, before playing his collection of EVPs, handed out a script of what the EVPs said. To me, the EVPs sounded like "mkjhniugcabcn," or static, but maybe if I put more faith in the script I would have heard, "I am a carpenter, and this is my brother John."

Yeah, this has always been my problem with EVPs. 95% of them sound like garbage and I think you really have to work hard to get to the conclusions that EVP researchers have arrived at.

There are those 5% though that do seem to clearly be spoken words, and sometimes spoken words that are direct responses to something the questioner asked. I'm not sure what think about those. For me, it leads to more questions than answers.

Hasn't Chris talked on the show about some interesting EVPs that he's collected? I'd like to hear more about those.

That's actually a good show idea: Bring on Tom and Lisa Butler from the Association of Trans-Communication (formerly the AA-EVP). They were the guys who were consulted for the movie White Noise. I did an interview with them a few users ago that was published in an eZine. They're accessible and legit and would make great guests.

 

[SPX]

I don't think there is evidence that mental intention or belief has to do with anything other than the mind and actions of the individual. The actions of the individual driven by their intention and directed by their beliefs is what causes change to occur in the physical world. If intention is truly the instigating factor for this phenomena, then I think that is a significant clue as to the true location of the activity, the mind.

Well I guess it depends on how much of these stories you believe. Do you really believe that more than one independent ouija board user has had the Zozo entity communicate with them or is this pure fabrication? Do you really believe that ouija boards have been used to find missing items or uncover other unknown information?

If you don't believe all these things and think the stories are fantasy, then I would see how you'd say "no evidence." But if in fact these things have occurred, then we have to come up with SOME kind of explanation. For me, that either leads to a) yes, the ouija board itself has magical powers, or b) no, it does not. And if it does not, then what is facilitating this communication?

The reason I say it seems to have something to do with intent is that with most cases where spirit communication is reported--whether it be mediumship or EVP or ouija boards--it usually begins with someone wanting to communicate with the "other side." It doesn't usually begin with making some tacos or going for a jog around the block.

Whether you are talking about a talisman, a fetish, or something else putting someone in mystical contact with entities you have to deal with what I call the cosmic protocols or mechanisms that supposedly bring these things about. Saying it is all about intention is ascribing some special power to a mental process (if it can even be called that) which doesn't appear to exist in any real way.

Well it is a mystery. I'll at least go that far. But if mediumship is real, as it seems some people may have a natural penchant for, then I would call that a "mental process" or "special power." I'm not positive it exists, and if it does I'm for damn sure not sure how it works, but it does seem to be tied into the mind somehow.

Maybe it has something to do with quantum entanglement?

 

[starise]

I think a person who is hesitant to believe that these things happen in light of personal testimony from seperate people that correlates with others who don't know one another and who haven't necessarily had in interest in the paranormal can come up with lots of alternate explanations. Here is where the mind tries to make sense of it without accepting the reality of it. You can tell yourself you didn't hear that noise but you know you did....that kind of thing. JMO.

Hesitant people are also wise people in that they don't want to go into something with both feet without the facts. The problem lies in that we don't have all the facts but we have enough of them to confirm some substantial things about this.Not nearly as iffy as I consider many of the UFO stories I have followed.

I do think that certain people are far more suseptable to being preyed on through use of the ouija than others. I think a person can open themself up to this through preparations either unknowingly or knowingly. If you believe in bad entities then how much more of a stretch is it to believe in good ones?The good entities don't play these kinds of games IMHO and if one of those are attached to you in some way then maybe they are keeping the bad entities away.But if you go looking for them and want to contact them, they know this and it won't be nearly as difficult for that willing person. I think this is the main attraction to the entities of the ouija. Someone is trying to contact them and they are given a means to reply in an expected way. How much easier could it be for them? For some reason, in the past the ouija has been recognized by the other side as a way to get through but they can't do that without a willing unprotected participant.

I really don't desire that kind of correspondence,especially after what I know.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

IF things like demons actually exist, I highly doubt that you require a boardgame from the makers of 'Monopoly' to get them to come play? We are supposed to think that for all eternity all these entities had to wait for someone to put letters on a board etc to allow them to come to our reality? (what did they do before the invention of the ouija board?)

I don't believe in demons anyway - the same mumbo-jumbo as angels and religion in general.

All bol-ox.

 

[SPX]

Well first off, I think there could be such as thing as a spirit with evil intent without it being the biblical demon. A lot of mediums and whatnot talk about "unevolved" or "low-level"spirits, i.e. those who have the capacity for good but who, due to a lack of knowledge or understanding, currently choose to cause trouble. That's pretty much exactly the way humans were. None of us are "good" or "evil" per se. In fact, you could even argue that there is no such thing as objective right and wrong. But some people choose to live in accordance with society's idea of right and the accepted norms of what good people do (don't steal, don't kill, try to be honest, try to be kind, etc) while others stray more toward the other direction. It could very well be that the spiritual world works the same way: some spirits try to be good while others get satisfaction from rocking the boat.

Again though, goggs, it seems you are falling into the straw-man trap of arguing that the board itself has some special powers that gives demons the ability to communicate, when in fact demon communication in various forms has been reported for centuries.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

No, I fully understand that if anything, an ouija board is just a single tool for 'contact' and there could indeed be countless variations of these tools.

It's that I don't believe in spirits. Having said that however, I am 99.99% convinced myself and one other saw at least the top-half of a 'full-body apparition' so work that one out! I know what we saw but I still don't believe there are spirits that we can contact or who can interfere with 'our' world.

If there is indeed such a thing as spirits then I would think you could easily draw an 'ouija' board face on a kitchen table and get the same results. What I am getting at is that I don't think an ouija board has anything special about it that allows us, through it, to make contact with spirits. So when someone says something like 'oh, I would not mess with an ouija board', I think they are failing to realise that using an ouija board is not a pre-requisite for spirits to interfere with us humans.

I am open a little to the possibility of spirits tho I know of no evidence backing up their existence. If they exist, then I think they exist completely outside religion, which I think is man-made and if religious texts refer to spirits it's because they existed already and were known. I don't think they are evil or good cos that is also a human construct.

 

[SPX]

So then you would classify yourself as a materialist? Ashes to ashes, dust to dust?

What do you make of near-death experiences and what is your response to those who claim to have been contacted by spirits and given information they had not previously known? What is your take on the Zozo stories?