Rosemary Ellen Guiley — Dream Messages from the Afterlife

[Randall]

I have always advocated looking for natural explanations first. After that, if we're going to make any headway, other possibilities have to be considered.

Can you be more specific? Like natural explanations for what ( example )? And what are the explanations that qualify as "possibilities" ( as opposed to beliefs or myths ) for such an example?

 

[Rosemary_Guiley]

Hi Ward,

As an example in ufology almost without exception all the the information given to an experience by the "aliens" be it predictions or information turns out to be false.

A -- I don't think we can lump all contact experiences together as being of the same ilk. It is also difficult to separate the contact itself from the content of the message. If the prediction is false, does that mean that there was no entity to begin with? I don't think we can say that. The overwhelming majority of dream visits from the dead deal with personal matters. Even the small number of predictive dreams are usually about the dreamer's life and immediate concerns. The whole alien thing is on a different level of contact. (And why they are the source of so many false predictions is another topic!)

How do you verify any of this information as coming from a legitimately dead source?

A -- We can't, at least at present. Doesn't matter what means of communication are used -- dreams, ghost boxes, automatic writing, vision, mediumship, Ouija board, runes, bones, EVP, whatever. The actual contacts are face value, and the experiencer vets them according to content. So dream visits from the dead still wind up being "evidence in support of" rather than undeniable proof of actual contact. The inability to pin down proof was a stumbling block that the early psychical researchers of the SPR and ASPR were never able to overcome, no matter how many mediums they studied looking for proof of survival after death. Too many things could not be ruled out -- subpersonalities of the mediums, clairvoyance on the part of the medium, telepathy between the medium and subject/sitters, etc. Later on the whole theory of "super ESP" became the biggest stumbling block of all -- it was impossible to rule out psychic access to information known by someone somewhere, or records kept somewhere.

From the standpoint of occultism, spirits are capable of imitating anything, even the human dead. From this perspective we have to consider the possibility of being yanked around by some trickster (like the Djinn).

Dream visits from the dead and contact with the dead remain in a murky area of exceptional human experience. Unless they are rejected, they become part of personal truth. We can't prove they are real, we can't prove they are not real. I have come to the conclusion they are a real experience, based on the evidence in support of them, which is traceable throughout history, as well as on my own experiences.

It often takes having one of these profound experiences to have a scales-falling-from-the-eyes conversion about their reality. Not very satisfying to the Aristotleans out there, but... we don't have a good understanding about the reaches of consciousness.

Do the "dead" some how loose the ability of deception they had in life?

A-- IMHO I don't think all dead people become saint-like post mortem. Messages of farewell and reassurance do not seem deceitful, however.

Could these "dead" simply be your beloved Djinn or similar trickster having the last laugh?

A -- See above

I see a forthcoming book is Black Mirror Scyring, how would this differ from using say a ouija board and how can you possibly trust any of the information coming from it or the source it claims to be?

A -- A black mirror is one of many tools/interfaces used to open contact with otherworldly realms. People can have intensely personal and meaningful experiences by using one, as Moody discovered with his psychomanteum process for grief. Black mirrors also have a long history of use for divination purposes.

Interface tools are neutral, and their use facilitates a person's natural psychic ability. The nature and quality of experiences can vary considerably. Same thing applies as above. The mirror offers a subjective experience vetted by the user for personal truth/meaning/significance.

As for trusting the info... well, the sheep/goat effect and experimenter effect documented in the parapsychology literature show that people often get results according to what they expect.

(BTW I wrote a book on the Ouija. It is also a neutral tool. People are usually the problem. Spirit communication devices are not toys and should not be treated as such.)

 

[Rosemary_Guiley]

Can you be more specific? Like natural explanations for what ( example )? And what are the explanations that qualify as "possibilities" ( as opposed to beliefs or myths ) for such an example?

When people think their house is haunted, there are often natural explanations for sounds, smells, etc. Many "UFOs" are explainable lights. Nightmares don't automatically mean you've been attacked psychically. Images and orbs in photographs that look peculiar are not automatically spirits.

One cannot apply the rules of ordinary reality to the paranormal, the mundus imaginalis, and otherworldly phenomena. If you engage enough in otherworldly realities, you walk in two worlds, a foot in each. One side is as real as the other.

 

[Burnt State]

Dream visits from the dead have distinctive characteristics different from "ordinary" dreams, and fairly consistent from person to person regardless of their knowledge of dreams. One can make the choice to disregard dreams as meaningless because there is no scientific proof of their content, and thus derive no benefit from them, or choose to find meaning in them. Those who have realistic meetings with the dead in dreams can experience profound grief healing, validation of faith-based belief, and also changes in belief, usually about the existence and nature of the afterlife.

This is good and true material. Personally, my research into dream studies have convinced me that almost all dreams are about learning, teaching us new skills and nothing very symbolic or worth interpreting. I just see it as our brain just calling up imagery and sensory input from the grey matter library to help us out with whatever is preoccupying us at the moment in the conscious world.

However, dreams of the dead are entirely profound! I have dreamt of my dad and a good close friend about maybe six or seven times over twelve years since their deaths. In each case I am extremely awe filled the following day. It feels like getting touched by the spirt world somewhere deep in my core. These have always been my favourite dreams. I cherish them deeply and freely throw my critical analysis of dreams out the door every time one of them visits. Dreaming of the dead has the power to alter world views, at least temporarily.

Thanks for hanging out in the forum answering questions. It's greatly appreciated.

 

[Rosemary_Guiley]

This is good and true material. Personally, my research into dream studies have convinced me that almost all dreams are about learning, teaching us new skills and nothing very symbolic or worth interpreting. I just see it as our brain just calling up imagery and sensory input from the grey matter library to help us out with whatever is preoccupying us at the moment in the conscious world.

However, dreams of the dead are entirely profound! I have dreamt of my dad and a good close friend about maybe six or seven times over twelve years since their deaths. In each case I am extremely awe filled the following day. It feels like getting touched by the spirt world somewhere deep in my core. These have always been my favourite dreams. I cherish them deeply and freely throw my critical analysis of dreams out the door every time one of them visits. Dreaming of the dead has the power to alter world views, at least temporarily.

Thanks for hanging out in the forum answering questions. It's greatly appreciated.

Many thanks for the testimony. There is room for accepting these kinds of experiences along with pursuing science as far as it can go in relation to the paranormal/spiritual/mystical. It doesn't have to be one or the other... the paranormal is never black and white, just constantly shape-shifting gray.

 

[wwkirk]

So this is the official thread for the episode.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

It's worked put that way, yes.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

With regards to prophetic dreams, I find that this can explain a lot of it in a more mundane manner:

Law of truly large numbers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's nice to think we have special powers, but it's usually something else. However, to the person it happens to (myself included, as I have definitely had some crazy dreams) it seems real.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

What Rosemary said about pets is super interesting. A few years ago we had two cats, and both were quite different. Then, after they were both gone for over a year, we decided to get another cat. I've always said she has a mixture of the personality of both our previous cats. However, I attribute this to the fact that all three cats shared a home with the same owner (us). She also exhibits very different traits as well since she will hide anytime we have new people over (she'll come out for you if you've been over a few times). The other two loved meeting new people.

EDIT: corrected a few small erros

 

[Wade]

With regards to prophetic dreams, I find that this can explain a lot of it in a more mundane manner:

Law of truly large numbers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's nice to think we have special powers, but it's usually something else. However, to the person it happens to (myself included, as I have definitely had some crazy dreams) it seems real.

My issue with prophetic dreams mostly stems from the fact that In many cases i'm a "hands on" dreamer, many times molding a dream to my liking...or so it seems. If that is the case, then it would call into question anything I dream about.


Welcome back Angelo, how's the new addition(s)...child and basement ??

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I've always been interested in dreams, and I used to believe there was more to them. However, I've come to the conclusion that they're just vivid thoughts. I'm still fascinated by them though.

 

[Wade]

I can really relate to Gene's question about dreaming about those who have passed on but there is nothing extraordinary about the dream itself. My mother passed on a couple of years ago and I dream about her a lot, mostly in the context where I just drop in unexpectedly on my folks (my dad is still alive) and we act as if nothing had happened but in many....but not all.... cases I will tell myself "I must be dreaming because my mother passed away"

 

[Rosemary_Guiley]

My issue with prophetic dreams mostly stems from the fact that In many cases i'm a "hands on" dreamer, many times molding a dream to my liking...or so it seems. If that is the case, then it would call into question anything I dream about.


Welcome back Angelo, how's the new addition(s)...child and basement ??

If I were a frequent lucid dreamer (instead of an occasional one as I am), I would not question the validity of dreams, but I would be experimenting with directing dream content for the present and the future. The scientists and experiencers who study lucid dreaming believe this faculty to hold great potential for advancement of consciousness and even our ability to affect reality. My perspective on the "future" as it is placed within the context of our linear time is, it is a probable outcome based on forces in motion. Most people who have precog dreams about big events (disasters) are previewing an outcome after critical mass of the forces in motion has been reached/passed. The event is going to happen. If a critical mass of humanity learned how to direct thoughts and dreams in concert... well that would totally change reality as we know it.

At the very least, lucid/precog dreaming might offer us ways to affect our own personal lives. So I would not dismiss this faculty, but embrace it wholeheartedly and experiment with it.

One other perspective: if we are constantly spinning off alternate realities, then everything happens somewhere, including precog dreams that do not pan out in this reality -- but they do happen somewhere else. Another way of looking at the everpresent now. Would volition in a lucid precog dream in this reality affect that reality? Personally, I believe we are plugged into an intricate Indra's Net far more complex than we can perceive.

 

[Wade]

I think one of the most interesting dream sequences I ever experienced happened several years ago (it was shortly after I rented inception) and I dreamt I was in the Bathroom at my childhood home and I was about to shave and my right hand was missing. I remember saying to myself "That's funny, it was there this morning, I must be dreaming" and there upon I woke up, or so I thought as upon opening my eyes I was looking into the faces of two former roomates bending over me and I remember thinking "wait a minute, I don't have any roomates, i must still be dreaming" then I woke up Again for real. I think I only had one more dream within a dream experience since then, but I forgot all the details. I sometimes wonder if my rather fanciful dream life is somehow compensating for the fact that I have such a boring real life.

At any rate, more often than not I tuck in early and very much look forward to going to bed it sure beats anything on t.v.

I was so blown away by the above dream, so much so that (quite unusual for me) I shared it with many of my customers at work. The funny thing is, several people focused on the fact that my hand was missing. now keep in mind that many of the people I come in contact with are from all over the world from various countries and different background and I noticed that these same people also interpreted the missing hand several different ways so that is another reason why I sometimes question the viability of interpreting dreams it seems to be dependent on what culture one is from, i would have preferred that these interpretations were more Universal and consistent

 

[Wade]

"...At the very least, lucid/precog dreaming might offer us ways to affect our own personal lives. So I would not dismiss this faculty, but embrace it wholeheartedly and experiment with it...."

I certainly do embrace this aspect of my life, I wish it happened every night. but I guess it was just a matter of not seeing the forest for the trees. I enjoy the fact thati am capable of directing input in my dreams and recoginizing that I do so, BUT as I mentioned I thought that would negate my ability to have precognitive dreams or visitation dreams because my thinking was... like others mentioned earlier and you answered...how did I know I didn't dream of a flood and escape it because I willed it.?

 

[Rosemary_Guiley]

I think one of the most interesting dream sequences I ever experienced happened several years ago (it was shortly after I rented inception) and I dreamt I was in the Bathroom at my childhood home and I was about to shave and my right hand was missing. I remember saying to myself "That's funny, it was there this morning, I must be dreaming" and there upon I woke up, or so I thought as upon opening my eyes I was looking into the faces of two former roomates bending over me and I remember thinking "wait a minute, I don't have any roomates, i must still be dreaming" then I woke up Again for real. I think I only had one more dream within a dream experience since then, but I forgot all the details. I sometimes wonder if my rather fanciful dream life is somehow compensating for the fact that I have such a boring real life.

At any rate, more often than not I tuck in early and very much look forward to going to bed it sure beats anything on t.v.

I was so blown away by the above dream, so much so that (quite unusual for me) I shared it with many of my customers at work. The funny thing is, several people focused on the fact that my hand was missing. now keep in mind that many of the people I come in contact with are from all over the world from various countries and different background and I noticed that these same people also interpreted the missing hand several different ways so that is another reason why I sometimes question the viability of interpreting dreams it seems to be dependent on what culture one is from, i would have preferred that these interpretations were more Universal and consistent

It's true that interpretations are quite subjective and personal and also specific to cultural context -- which is why dream dictionaries don't always translate well into foreign languages. The puns and plays on words in dreams, as well as culture-specific POVs, don't carry over. Also, some of those 10,000-dreams-interpreted books are holdovers from Artemidorus and contain translations of translations of meanings that were relevant centuries ago. We dream within context of 1) personal life 2) culture, race, religion, place & time in history 3) the collective unconscious (archetypes). Dreams always have meaning to the dreamer in all of those layers. In prevailing dreamwork approaches, only the dreamer can truly interpret a dream. Others, such as in group dreamwork and facilitated dreamwork, can offer interpretations from their POVs ("If it were my dream...") that the dreamer can use as aids. A contemporary dream dictionary is a good aid, too. However, it should suggest possible meanings to the dreamer. It's a good starting point for free association.

Regarding your missing hand, only you know the real meaning of it, not just as a discrete symbol, but also for what it says within the dream and to you in relation to you and your life. That's the truth of the dream. Perhaps one of those persons who weighed in said something that resonated and enabled you to understand from your POV. You're not obliged to accept anyone else's interpretation. There are no "wrong" interpretations per se, since two people having exactly the same dream would relate it to the unique circumstances in their lives, and arrive at something meaningful. They might see some of the symbols and themes the same way, but differ over other meanings.

The hand is not the only significant thing in the dream, BTW. In dreamwork, everything in a dream says something about the dreamer. If you keep a dream journal, you will see the same themes and symbols appear, perhaps in general or in stretches of time. And sometimes dreams make even more sense in retrospect.

Most of our dreaming is about us and how we feel we're doing in life. But all of us do share common ground in dreaming, in the archetypes from the collective unconscious and in the exceptional dreams we have.

One of the undercurrents I see here in the forum is the search for, and even insistence on, definitive, immutable black-and-white answers. I'm all for the hard data. But those kinds of answers are not always going to be found in the paranormal or the dreamworld (at least at present). There are no apples versus oranges, no right versus wrong, no neat little pie charts separating this from that. There are no spirits or entities or dead people giving us a thumbprint to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt who they are. The absence of those definitive answers does not render these realms meaningless, invalid, or phony.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

I had a close friend who was dying of cancer, she knew months ahead. I was close to her and the family, husband and son, and practically moved in to help them through these last few months. She had a deep fear of dying so we talked through it, all of it. Probably one of the most intense times of my life. When she died I was devastated but stayed on task helping the family get through. About a month after her death I had this dream where her and I were sitting on a hillside, talking, she asked me how things were. I replied like it was everyday stuff, then I noticed this barbed wire between us. It was just suddenly there. I said, I can't come over there, can I? No, but you'll be ok. ....The next day I painted what I saw on canvass, kinda crude in technique, but it was exactly what it was. The following week her son came to my apartment and asked me if I had any dreams of his mom, we shared our dreams and we both knew she came to check in and say goodbye. I've never doubted the validity of those dreams....there was no science, proof, or even an explanation needed.

 

[Jimi H.]

Hi Rosemary

Thanks for your replies.

2-- We can be visited by the dead, including animals, in dreams. Entities of all kinds can invade dreams. No know limits to the dreasmcape.

Sure, they can 'invade' our dreams, probably because our subconscious presents them to us in our dreams. But I don't think that there is any active 'spirit' invading us.

How do I infer this? By noting that we can also dream about people who don't even know us, or of our existence. They don't even have to be 'real'. For instance, if you watched a movie the night before, you may see characters from the movie appearing in your dreams. Since they are movie characters they are fictional and not real to begin with.

With that in mind, I think we are not 'visited', instead we imagine.

3-- Speculation: perhaps certain entities take advantage of natural sleep paralysis, or know how to cause it.

Well, I was thinking more like this: If people are unaware of the phenomenon of sleep paralysis, they may experience all sorts of visitations, and take them at face value. So, if people are often visited it could be an indicator that they suffer from somatic disturbances they were not aware of.

I cannot see how the condition of sleep paralysis should open/be a 'portal' of any kind. The portal-idea is typically put forth by alien abduction proponents who try to skirt the fact that sleep paralysis is a physical condition that has everything to do with the human mind and imagination.

4-- Dreams do deal with material from the subconscious, but they are far more.

If you want to believe so you may do so, but to proclaim it as fact puts you on very thin ice imo.

Mind you, I'm not a spiritist, something which seems to be an appropriate prerequisite to believing that dreams about other deceased beings, human or otherwise, should be visitations from a spirit world.

 

[marduk]

I have to say to everyone involved that I went into this show with more than a little groaning and skepticism, but instead it's left me scratching my chin with many things to think about.

Thanks for it, and well done.

 

[Rosemary_Guiley]

I have to say to everyone involved that I went into this show with more than a little groaning and skepticism, but instead it's left me scratching my chin with many things to think about.

Thanks for it, and well done.

Much appreciated. I've enjoyed all the discussion, too.