How about reading her books and telling us what you think AFTER you've done that? Seems to me that you're basing all this on one radio interview -- period!
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Rosemary Ellen Guiley
- Thread starter wwkirk
- Start date
Free episodes:
It's called "field work," conducting investigations, helping hundreds of people who have and are experiencing inexplicable events. Going out on hundreds of cases and comparing event generated data to come up w/ an informed opinion. If you had spent decades doing this I would respect your informed insight. You haven't bothered to do this, but you sure seem to have a high opinion of your armchair-generated wisdom.
DaveM
Paranormal Adept
So Chris, you are saying that Ms. Guiley has thousands of documented 'Djinn' stories? I think you are talking apples and oranges here. I am sure she has many documented paranormal stories. The only Djinn stories are folklore. Besides, we can't see what she wrote because the book isn't available yet.
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
How in the world would you know what I've done and haven't done? You're making your own armchair assumptions there, pal. You haven't answered my question though, how does this take us to the next level? I didn't attack her field work or her helping people, I criticized her theory for being nothing more than your typical ET's are demons Christian fundamentalist nonsense only from an Islamic perspective. The Chinese have a lot of history/folklore about Dragons, maybe ET's are dragons, see how easy this is? How in the world does that take anything to the "next level"
Actionsquid
Skilled Investigator
Honestly, it doesn't sound like you paid a lot of attention to the actual interview. Did you actually listen? I mean really listen? Because your reaction, to me, reads more like someone who was already predisposed to a very negative reaction to the guest and didn't really listen much to the dialog.
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
I have no opinion whatsoever on Rosemary Ellen Guiley, my beef is with the whole ET's are Djinn/Demons theory and how it does absolutely nothing to increase our understanding of the phenomenon or to help this field become more scientifically credible. It does the exact opposite.
Yeah, you're right. You prefer the safety of the anonymous avatar, how could I possibly know? That's true. But, reading your posts for almost a year, its pretty obvious that the last thing you would ever do is go out on investigations and try to help people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since you don't think any of these subjects are worthy of respect (or the people that are interested in investigating them) why would you bother going out to find out for yourself? You've obviously made up your mind that all these subjects and events are bullshit, why would you bother? It's really easy being anonymous and all... you can come across as some "know-it-all" casting aspersions and judgements on others hard work without doing the work yourself. It still baffles me why you bother to post here. You have such disdain for these subjects, your presence here is rather bizarre.
Actionsquid
Skilled Investigator
My take-away from the conversation wasn't that the guest was trying to say "ALIENS"=DJINN=DEMONS and ok, let's just call it a day. I understood her as saying that many people, especially in other parts of the world, attribute some of the activity we might see as "ET-related" to the Djinn, or they might simple be associated with it.
I think that perspective certainly might further our understanding of the phenomenon by deepening our ideas of how humans perceive it.
As for "helping 'this field' become more scientifically credible", I don't really think that's the responsibility of the Paracast, and it's not the stated intent of the guest, so I feel like your objections are a little bit like yelling at a coconut because you're mad that it's not a banana.
Her first book on the subject is available, did you read it?
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
That's funny because you couldn't be more wrong about what I think, so obviously you haven't been paying much attention. Do I think there's something to the UFO/ET phenomenon? Absolutely. I don't think anyone truly knows yet, but in my opinion yes there is something there and yes it is worthy of study. What I don't do is take the claims of people who refuse to back them up with evidence, seriously. That's my perspective. Now when it comes demons or Djinns or spirit world visitations, you're absolutely right, I don't think these things are worthy of respect and I think they do nothing but distract us from what the real answer may be. They are simply impossible to prove or substantiate in any meaningful way and always have been. Saying the UFO phenomenon is due to Djinn or Demons is completely meaningless, because nobody knows exactly what a Djinn or a Demon actually is, or if they even exist. It's nothing but mythology and folklore, it doesn't take us to the next level it smacks us back into the damn dark ages.
I wonder if these paranormal forum skeptics have a little cyber club that they attend late at night to pump each other up and maybe engage in some kind of weird cyber circle jerk to pictures of ETs and cute little faeries? Naw, that's TOO weird, but I just can't fathom their motivations
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
Lol I like your analogy but like I said, many people in the US and probably other countries with a heavy Christian influence think that aliens are demons, how is that any different? I'm not even saying that it isn't interesting, sure it can be if you're into folklore, but Chris said it takes us to the next level and I just can't see it myself. To me it says much more about us and our prejudice against things that we may not understand than it does about the ET phenomenon.
You obviously weren't listening to the same interview Gene and I just conducted. Sheesh... go back and re-listen. She said several times that the haunting, poltergeist may be misinterpreted, possible some ET abduction claims and that this was in no way a blanket explanation. Obviously you heard what you wanted to hear. I don't have anymore time to waste responding to your whinny posts. I'm a busy guy—doing "the work," not editorializing, taking pot-shots and criticizing other's work. I've got to go now, so play nice, ok? If not, you can go join Lance and throw darts at my picture, or something.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Chris, you have to get off the whole "armchair research" high horse. Every time someone challenges you or one of your friends, you retort with, "you haven't done the research" argument. Meanwhile, with all the research people like Ms. Guiley have done, we've got nothing.
You get frustrated with skeptics because you know that we actually have a point - there's nothing beyond folklore to the Djinn. They are no more real than fairies and the boogeyman. Taken in from a cultural/anthropological point of view, this is interesting. Thinking that these things are actually real is like a child thinking that Christmas gifts come from Santa.
You get frustrated with skeptics because you know that we actually have a point - there's nothing beyond folklore to the Djinn. They are no more real than fairies and the boogeyman. Taken in from a cultural/anthropological point of view, this is interesting. Thinking that these things are actually real is like a child thinking that Christmas gifts come from Santa.
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
Man I'm really starting to think you have trouble with reading comprehension, I never criticized her integrity or her work, just her interpretation of it and her theory. Seems like you hear what you want to hear in my posts, as evidenced by your interpretation of my position, which couldn't have been more off. I'm glad that she doesn't think of it as a blanket explanation and yes I do remember her saying that but my point still remains even if it's just a partial theory. We don't know what Djinn are or if they even exist so it really doesn't explain anything. If anything it introduces more questions than answers.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Well ... I kind of like Rosemary, but her worldview, or at least her expression of it, doesn't seem to equate with reality. She lost me at 04:40 minutes by classifying Djinn as supernatural entities. By doing that she's putting them into the realm of mythical creatures like witches on brooms, unicorns, mermaids, angels, fairies, demons and so on, and that makes them either fables ( fiction ) or makes the explanations for them ( as real ) faulty. The next issue is in the "multidimensional world" explanation for them, which carries with it a whole lot of other logical problems. Then she moved on to psychic communication with them. I'm not saying that telepathic communication isn't possible between real people, but extending it to mythical creatures as if they are also real is an unreasonable leap in logic.
Then we move on to Chris' buffering of the woo factor using ancient and traditional beliefs and familiarity with the jargon as a rationale for credibility. Unfortunately, no matter how good we are at using new age gobbledygook, it doesn't add any credibility to the claims. There's a reason why the world has progressed out of the dark ages and why we don't employ witch-doctors in our hospitals. It's far more likely that the people who were experiencing health problems while administering poison to trees is because they were also exposed to the poison. It wouldn't be the first time that people have been poisoned by the chemicals they were putting into the environment. Why invoke supernatural entities?
Let's move on to Rosemary admitting that there's no scientific evidence and that her interpretations are entirely subjective. For me, this translates into, "There's no rational reason to believe me." Which is ironic considering that she also says she wants to explain the phenomena and bring them into a better light, which sounded OK until she adds that it would give us a better "supernatural footing". The only better "supernatural footing" we can gain is to have a more complete picture of the mythology. A better "supernatural footing" won't give us a better scientific or rational footing.
Then we move on to the accusations by the Islamic wackos that there are politicians who are using the Djinn ... like we're supposed to take that as evidence? This was half way through the show.
Then we have the first comment that makes sense. Like Chris, I'm in complete agreement that if presented with an opportunity to be granted three wishes, my first wish would be for more than three wishes. Add to that the crack about the lawyers and the allusion to the connection between Dijinn and Gin and we're making some real progress. I've personally been heavily influenced by some very tempting double martinis ... and I'm sure that they could account for most, if not all gin like encounters. In fact, just substitute the word "Gin" for "Djinn" and it all makes perfect sense.
Moving along ... then we have these strange background noises. You can definitely hear them in the interview, and some sounded like there was a voice in there, so how about we get one of our sound techs on this and see if we can extract out anything intelligible.
The rest of the show included more of the same type of stuff. I liked Gene's question toward the end of the show, to paraphrase: "Why assume these Djinn aren't something else?" And Rosemary's answer, although sounding self-contradictory, also reinforced the idea that the phenomena as a whole may involve one kind of entity that takes on different forms. Gene also asked why it couldn't be explained by an advanced ET presence ( good one Gene ), and the answer didn't preclude that possibility.
Summary:
Interesting discussions in the context of mythology, history, and religious belief systems, but it goes off the rails when these things are promoted as real and supernatural at the same time. While I don't doubt that there are a lot of unexplained phenomena, and that people like Rosemary, Chris ( and even myself ) have experienced them, explaining them in the context of primitive supernatural belief systems is a step backward. Also, applying fuzzy but incomplete and irrational interpretations of modern thinking to them, ( e.g. multiple dimensions ) doesn't add any credibility. Nevertheless, Rosemary has certainly done a lot of personal research over the years. I buy her books because I believe it's important to be aware of all the ways that people look at these phenomena. If we arbitrarily dismiss them, then we not only miss an opportunity to gather more pieces of the puzzle, we also become prejudicial. Rosemary appears to make a genuine and constructive effort to provide something worthwhile, and that always deserves some applause.
Then we move on to Chris' buffering of the woo factor using ancient and traditional beliefs and familiarity with the jargon as a rationale for credibility. Unfortunately, no matter how good we are at using new age gobbledygook, it doesn't add any credibility to the claims. There's a reason why the world has progressed out of the dark ages and why we don't employ witch-doctors in our hospitals. It's far more likely that the people who were experiencing health problems while administering poison to trees is because they were also exposed to the poison. It wouldn't be the first time that people have been poisoned by the chemicals they were putting into the environment. Why invoke supernatural entities?
Let's move on to Rosemary admitting that there's no scientific evidence and that her interpretations are entirely subjective. For me, this translates into, "There's no rational reason to believe me." Which is ironic considering that she also says she wants to explain the phenomena and bring them into a better light, which sounded OK until she adds that it would give us a better "supernatural footing". The only better "supernatural footing" we can gain is to have a more complete picture of the mythology. A better "supernatural footing" won't give us a better scientific or rational footing.
Then we move on to the accusations by the Islamic wackos that there are politicians who are using the Djinn ... like we're supposed to take that as evidence? This was half way through the show.
Then we have the first comment that makes sense. Like Chris, I'm in complete agreement that if presented with an opportunity to be granted three wishes, my first wish would be for more than three wishes. Add to that the crack about the lawyers and the allusion to the connection between Dijinn and Gin and we're making some real progress. I've personally been heavily influenced by some very tempting double martinis ... and I'm sure that they could account for most, if not all gin like encounters. In fact, just substitute the word "Gin" for "Djinn" and it all makes perfect sense.
Moving along ... then we have these strange background noises. You can definitely hear them in the interview, and some sounded like there was a voice in there, so how about we get one of our sound techs on this and see if we can extract out anything intelligible.
The rest of the show included more of the same type of stuff. I liked Gene's question toward the end of the show, to paraphrase: "Why assume these Djinn aren't something else?" And Rosemary's answer, although sounding self-contradictory, also reinforced the idea that the phenomena as a whole may involve one kind of entity that takes on different forms. Gene also asked why it couldn't be explained by an advanced ET presence ( good one Gene ), and the answer didn't preclude that possibility.
Summary:
Interesting discussions in the context of mythology, history, and religious belief systems, but it goes off the rails when these things are promoted as real and supernatural at the same time. While I don't doubt that there are a lot of unexplained phenomena, and that people like Rosemary, Chris ( and even myself ) have experienced them, explaining them in the context of primitive supernatural belief systems is a step backward. Also, applying fuzzy but incomplete and irrational interpretations of modern thinking to them, ( e.g. multiple dimensions ) doesn't add any credibility. Nevertheless, Rosemary has certainly done a lot of personal research over the years. I buy her books because I believe it's important to be aware of all the ways that people look at these phenomena. If we arbitrarily dismiss them, then we not only miss an opportunity to gather more pieces of the puzzle, we also become prejudicial. Rosemary appears to make a genuine and constructive effort to provide something worthwhile, and that always deserves some applause.
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
Bravo. The you haven't done your research crap is ridiculous, you're running a radio show that is meant to inform people, why would I bother to listen to it if I was already 100% completely informed? Not to mention there is no way to get 100% without a doubt informed on demons or Djinn or Snarks or Grumkins because they have never been proven to exist. Period. Hey I know, maybe ET's are manifestations of Greek Gods, have I taken the subject to the next level?
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
An excellent summary of the interview, Ufology, thank you for posting it. I agree 100% with your analysis and while I may come off as harsh, my intent wasn't to disparage the guest, simply to question the theory and its implications and point out how easy it is to extrapolate from mythology. Aaron Kaplan does the same thing with internet mythology, but he's not buddies with Chris, so he gets hammered and rightly so, he deserves it, but there's definitely a double standard here when it comes to guests that have a personal relationship with one of the hosts that myself and many others have noticed.
Jeff Crowell
Paranormal Annoyance
So I guess what you're saying here, Muadib, is that the Paracast has it's share of pet guests for the show? One's that don't fall under the same scrutiny as others?
Please understand I'm not trying to be short here, just clarifying you're beef with the episode.
J.