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Rosemary Ellen Guiley

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Other than her looking like she's either really stoned or really tired, I don't see anything. Am I missing something here?

Looks like really rapid blinking to me.I can't look her in the eyes and have enough time to see them before she blinks. I was just curious what it could be . Stoned maybe, tired is usually not super rapid blinking is it? I can't say it's nothing, might be trivial but it's something and struck me as odd. Make of it what you will I guess.
 
LOL !! Halfway through listening to this episode, I just started laughing. Not because of what REG was saying, the lady knows more than a little
bit. I laughed because I knew without a shadow of a doubt that this episode would piss debunkers and skeptics off to no end. Draw them like moths to a flame.
Thanks for verifying this for me folks.:)

Where to begin? Chris, Dude. You've got to stop letting these snarky skeptic types push your buttons man. You've got a more than good idea about what's going on.
Stop wasting your time replying to these gentleman. You're not going to change their minds. The point of view they've taken prevents it.

To all skeptics, debunkers, hecklers, & trolls. I'd like to save you all quite a bit of wasted time. you keep asking for "evidence", for "proof".
By the way all of you frame this demand, you desire this evidence, this proof to be of the gross physical variety, reproducible, able to stand up
to the rigors of the legendary Western Scientific Method (double blind studies for everybody, boys & girls!!)

I'm going to save you time, because in case you haven't noticed, there isn't any gross physical proof, and there won't BE any gross physical proof. Period.

The 10% of this Russian Matryoshka Doll that is the so called paranormal, the "high strangeness", the real deal, doesn't originate here in the dense physical.

There's no such thing as "Supernatural", or "Paranormal". It's all very natural. The term Nature is from the latin "Natura", which itself originates from the Ancient
Egyptian term Neter (plural Neteru), which corresponds to the divine powers.

But when the ancients talked about divine powers, neteru, gods, archangels, etc., they were talking about the prime ideas, or psychoid archetypes of Jung.

The very important point to understand, is that they understood that all of these original patterns originated in the realm of mind. They also understood,
unlike most westerners ( with exceptions such as Jung, and Wolfgang Pauli), that everything originates in mind, manifesting into the gross physical.

In other words, the truly strange aspects of this phenomena originate in the noumenal, or mental realm, manifesting or expressing effects temporarily in the
the phenomenal realm.

People keep tossing the word "reality" about, not understanding what the term truly encompasses. Not understanding that beyond the world of standard physics,
it ALL begins to turn to sand, to dust, to nothing. Things, structures, are composed of atoms, which are composed of sub-atomic particles, which, as you go deeper
and deeper down into their structure, are composed of more and more nothing.

To get all William of Ockham about it, everything comes from nothing.

So up to a point, atheists are right.

Everything physical is structured. Limited. Defined. God is supposedly all powerful, unlimited in it's ability. As such, if God "existed", it couldn't be
made out of structured matter, and would be immaterial. "made" of no thing. You could never "see" God. You would just observe it's effects in the
world.

So atheists are also wrong.

And up to a point, theists (caveat, depending on their level of comprehension) are right.

But since it's unstructured, unlimited, you can't put an image on it, or anthropomorphize it, as organized religion does.

So theists are also wrong.

So I ask you, what is this evidence, this proof, this reality you keep pining for? Don't you get it yet that it's ALL shadows on the wall of a cave?

This is all a hologram with force feedback capabilities. Or if you want to be romantic about it, a dream. And as we all know, all kinds of strange crap can show up in a dream, now can't it? You're shown the truth of this every night you go to bed. Nothing. Void. Then images. And thoughts. You're "dreaming". Then void. Then another
dream. And so on. But every once in a while, you wake up in the dream, realizing "I'm in a dream". And then you "wake up". It's in front of your face, but you can't (or refuse to) see it.

Utilizing what I just said as a basis, this all comes down to incorrect nomenclature. REG says Djinn. Now what Djinn is she talking about?

There's the supposed humanoid Djinn that exists here (?) with man, according to arabic culture.

There's the Genii of the ceremonial magic of Franz Bardon, which correspond to various archetypes, including angels, and archangels. These are actually
different powers that exist in the mental realm. They're more commonly known as talents, and personality types. People in later times anthropomorphized
them, separating and putting these faculties of the mind as entities above us.

These faculties operate both within us, and in the world (because at the end of the day, there is no separation between the two).

These different aspects of the mind manifest in all kinds of interesting ways. As a great basketball player. As an amazing surgeon. They're our repositories
of "Genius". they're the intelligences responsible for our "intelligence".

These mental faculties are also responsible for our psychical abilities, which everyone possesses, whether they acknowledge it or not. And when I say psychic,
I'm not talking about the flashy stuff. A lot of everyday psychical phenomena comes under the heading of what people call synchronicities. Things only noticeable
to people paying attention, that most folks blow off as coincidence. It's in front of your face, but you can't (or refuse to) see it.

To paraphrase Lon Milo DuQuette "It's all in your head, You just don't realize how big your head is."

So since a large part of this core phenomena originates in the mind, you're never going to "catch it". You'll just catch effects. Soil samples. mutilated cattle. A blurry
photograph (like a phantom). Anecdotal evidence. Doesn't mean it's not "real", but not at the density that you desire, not permanently.

That's the core phenomena. Now there are also actual extraterrestrial entities running about. But you're not going to prove them either. Most of them function
between the mental and phenomenal realms, shifting between the two. There's hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of different types of these. All cultures
describe them (some better than others). Most of them don't deal with regular humans. Can't be bothered. You'll run into them doing certain Eastern practices,
utilizing legit ceremonial magic (oxymoron?:), ingesting ethanogens, scrying. There's a number of different ways of accessing the circles they travel in (some ways safer than others). More than a few of them even look like us. Just more actors in this movie. more special effects.

But these entities are "alien" in it's truest sense, and can have potentially negative effects on the average human psyche that isn't prepared to interact with them, as Keel and others have reported. And once you start this machine up, there is no off button.

To use a movie geek analogy, to prove the existence of Cenobites, are you going to open the Hellraiser box? (good luck with that):rolleyes:

REG has an extensive information database. The problem is that a lot of the concepts are being mixed up (not necessarily through any fault of her own. This stuff can get
complicated). Definitions are garbled and/or inaccurate.

There's a lot of "Analytic Overlay" that goes on in this field, which is to be expected. Most people reason utilizing associative thinking. When someone says "UFO",
or "Bigfoot", or "Djinn", a corresponding association automatically pops up in their head. For Bigfoot, it could be "Ape", "ET", or "BS". And all associations could
be wrong.

All of the skeptics here are very intelligent and insightful. Their reasoning is usually impeccable. It's just that their premises are mostly built on quicksand.
("logical, but not necessarily true" and all that good stuff). We need healthy skepticism (especially considering 90% of everything is BS :)

I will say that some of you need to drop the Western arrogance thing, and look into other cultures, if you sincerely want to find out about another way of looking
at all of this. Primitive is from the from Latin primitivus "first or earliest of its kind". And just because something's first, it doesn't mean it's incomplete.
More often than not, you just haven't taken the time to learn the nomenclature. That pesky Western arrogance again.

All in all, fantastic episode Gene and Chris. I salute you :D
 
My reading of the interview is that Rosemary is researching a long-reported phenomena. It doesn't really matter if she calles it Djinn or Djinn=ET, she is well aware that she doesn't know for sure but she is reporting on experiences people have related to her and if she chooses to put a Djinn slant on it, she is doing no worse than saying UFO's=ETH. There are a multitude of explanations for various phenomena and I am happy that this is a contribution to the discussion of all these topics.
I don't think she is the same as a religious person or 'true believer'.
 
My reading of the interview is that Rosemary is researching a long-reported phenomena. It doesn't really matter if she calles it Djinn or Djinn=ET, she is well aware that she doesn't know for sure but she is reporting on experiences people have related to her and if she chooses to put a Djinn slant on it, she is doing no worse than saying UFO's=ETH. There are a multitude of explanations for various phenomena and I am happy that this is a contribution to the discussion of all these topics.
I don't think she is the same as a religious person or 'true believer'.

Since part of the core phenomena reacts in response to your thought associations, it's actually very important the labels that are put on things, and the thoughts running around in both the conscious and especially the so called subconscious mind.

I'm probably dating myself, but did you ever see "Forbidden Planet"?

http://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Planet/dp/B001N3GUIE/ref=tmm_aiv_title_0
 
===========================================

===========================================================

Thanks for asking about that, Bob. If ISKON went to the police instead of trying to sweep it under the carpet in house, that is important to know.

No, that is an interesting sidebar about TM. If I understand correctly, it seems to be a tool that one can use outside of the movement itself. You mentioned the increasing commercialization of TM. This website is by an alleged former teacher who seems to have a number of criticisms of the organization:
Falling Down the TM Rabbit Hole, How TM Really Works, a Critical Opinion

One thing I read about TM was the intent to bring the unconscious into consciousness. In the book Owning Your Own Shadow, the author discuss the Jungian concept of the Shadow and the notion of how ignoring or denying it tends to amplify its power. I was wondering if this has any relevance to the concept of the Djinn. That is, is the Djinn concept ever used as a means of externalizing one's own desires and placing them into a scapegoat? I'm thinking of the-Devil-made-me-do-it thing. Sometimes, it is easier to blame the darkness within ourselves on another force. Or to quote Gogol Bordello, "It is easier to see evil as entity/Not as condition inside you and me."

Or if we look at the Djinn as a truly external entity, does it draw power from the Shadow? Does a person with unexpressed and unowned negative desires not provide energy for the Djinn? And are paranormal events at times a manifestation of one's Shadow?

In discussions of the paranormal, I seem to often hear things described in ways that make them entirely separated from the experiencer/witness. But I wonder if there isn't something to be gained by examining the human's role in evoking or expressing a given phenomenon. I also wonder if the experiencer's religion or belief system doesn't play a crucial role in how the phenomenon interacts with the person.

One other thing I wanted to ask- does the concept of the Djinn have any relationship to Rakshasa?

Thanks!
Konrad[/quote]
Konrad,
Thanks for your kind comments and further questions. I can address all of them, but I wanted to get some input from my Hindu monk friend regarding Rakshasa. I'll get back ASAP. Bob
 
It's been said by others before me but I like to state that possible all paranormal phenomena cannot be proven either way by 'normal' means. It is possible that a whole other way of being, reality, realm, laws etc is impinging on our reality but because it is not made or 'of' our reality, us using our normal scientific and research processes will never get a handle on it. Perhaps this other side can sense or see us from time to time and they too can not prove or otherwise that we actually exist.
Is there something inherent in all paranormal fields that means they just cannot be properly measured and quantified by us in our reality?

I suppose it's like the question, can you prove you love someone? I think you can provide evidence that points in that direction but it's not a properly tangible thing and therefore unprovable.
 
It's been said by others before me but I like to state that possible all paranormal phenomena cannot be proven either way by 'normal' means. It is possible that a whole other way of being, reality, realm, laws etc is impinging on our reality but because it is not made or 'of' our reality, us using our normal scientific and research processes will never get a handle on it. Perhaps this other side can sense or see us from time to time and they too can not prove or otherwise that we actually exist.
Is there something inherent in all paranormal fields that means they just cannot be properly measured and quantified by us in our reality?

I suppose it's like the question, can you prove you love someone? I think you can provide evidence that points in that direction but it's not a properly tangible thing and therefore unprovable.

This is the very problem i have with some of these theorys, since we cant get a handle on it via current scientific processes, we must look for paranormal explanations.

This is akin to someone 500 years ago, looking at an Iphone and deciding it must operate via magic.
Not having a scientific explanation for something, isnt an excuse to substitute a supernatural explanation.
 
Mike, what is your exact, to the letter definition of science? What is your exact definition of supernatural?

And why exactly do you have an issue with an explanation that doesn't fit your paradigm?

I'd really like to know.
 
ex·pla·na·tion

[ek-spluh-ney-shuh
thinsp.png
thinsp.png
n
]

noun
1.
the act or process of explaining.
2.
something that explains; a statement made to clarify something and make it understandable;exposition: an explanation of a poem.
3.
a meaning or interpretation: to find an explanation for a mystery.
4.
a mutual declaration of the meaning of words spoken, actions, motives, etc., with a view to adjusting a misunderstanding or reconciling differences: After a long and emotional explanation they werefriends again.
Origin:
1350–1400; Middle English explanacioun < Latin explānātiōn- (stem of explānātiō ), equivalent to explānāt ( us) (see explanate) + -iōn- -ion

Related forms
o·ver·ex·pla·na·tion, noun
pre·ex·pla·na·tion, noun
re·ex·pla·na·tion, noun

Synonyms
1. elucidation, explication, exposition, interpretation, description. 3. solution, key, answer.
 
Rather than just toss up the definition of science i'll say this

Our ability to fly
Our ability to dive deep into the ocean
Our ability to travel in space, go to the moon orbit the earth, land probes on mars
Our ability to have a video chat from one side of the planet to the other in real time

Your computer,car, dishwasher and flush toilet

All examples of technological mechanisms

Ive yet to see a supernatural mechanism at work

Unlike poor catweasel


Who sees them everywhere
 
Since part of the core phenomena reacts in response to your thought associations, it's actually very important the labels that are put on things, and the thoughts running around in both the conscious and especially the so called subconscious mind.

I'm probably dating myself, but did you ever see "Forbidden Planet"?

http://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Planet/dp/B001N3GUIE/ref=tmm_aiv_title_0

Commander John J. Adams: What is the Id?
Dr. Edward Morbius: [frustrated] Id, Id, Id, Id, Id!
[calming down]
Dr. Edward Morbius: It's a... It's an obsolete term. I'm afraid once used to describe the elementary basis of the subconscious mind.
Commander John J. Adams: [to himself] Monsters from the Id...
Dr. Edward Morbius: Huh?
Commander John J. Adams: Monsters from the subconscious. Of course. That's what Doc meant. Morbius. The big machine, 8,000 miles of klystron relays, enough power for a whole population of creative geniuses, operated by remote control. Morbius, operated by the electromagnetic impulses of individual Krell brains.
Dr. Edward Morbius: To what purpose?
Commander John J. Adams: In return, that ultimate machine would instantaneously project solid matter to any point on the planet, In any shape or color they might imagine. For *any* purpose, Morbius! Creation by mere thought.
Dr. Edward Morbius: Why haven't I seen this all along?
Commander John J. Adams: But like you, the Krell forgot one deadly danger - their own subconscious hate and lust for destruction.
Dr. Edward Morbius: The beast. The mindless primitive! Even the Krell must have evolved from that beginning.
Commander John J. Adams: And so those mindless beasts of the subconscious had access to a machine that could never be shut down. The secret devil of every soul on the planet all set free at once to loot and maim. And take revenge, Morbius, and kill!
Dr. Edward Morbius: My poor Krell. After a million years of shining sanity, they could hardly have understood what power was destroying them.
[pause]
Dr. Edward Morbius: Yes, young man, all very convincing, but for one obvious fallacy. The last Krell died 2,000 centuries ago. But today, as we all know, there is still at large on this planet a living monster.
Commander John J. Adams: Your mind refuses to face the conclusion.
Dr. Edward Morbius: What do you mean?

Forbidden Planet (1956) - Trivia - IMDb
 
This is the very problem i have with some of these theorys, since we cant get a handle on it via current scientific processes, we must look for paranormal explanations.

This is akin to someone 500 years ago, looking at an Iphone and deciding it must operate via magic.
Not having a scientific explanation for something, isnt an excuse to substitute a supernatural explanation.

While I cannot argue with that logic mike (it's quite logical) when you consider that with the help of science we can, with some accuracy, determine the make up of planets and moons light years away from us it is not unusual to try to establish another answer to things that allude us here in our own backyard using the scientific method.
 
Cute though that was, that's just a "modern" stereotype of that time. They weren't quite that bad. Vicious, barbaric even. But not quite that bad.
Things like that are for "modern" people to do their superior dance to:


What you're describing is technology, techniques, not science.

This is the problem. people using terms incorrectly.

Science (Etymology):
c.1300, "knowledge (of something) acquired by study," also "a particular branch of knowledge," from Old French science, from Latin scientia "knowledge," from sciens (genitive scientis), prp. of scire "to know,"

Technology:
The word technology refers to the making, modification, usage, and knowledge of tools, machines, techniques, crafts, systems, and methods of organization, in order to solve a problem, improve a preexisting solution to a problem, achieve a goal, handle an applied input/output relation or perform a specific function. It can also refer to the collection of such tools, including machinery, modifications, arrangements and procedures.

There are numerous ways to know, numerous sciences.

There are numerous types of technology, numerous techniques to solve problems.

Just because you haven't seen or experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

To say absolutely that what you call the supernatural doesn't exist, is sliding dangerously into the pit of the debunker.

A true skeptic would say "show me how it works. if you can't, then the jury's still out." I respect that. Not the slinging around
of absolutes as fact. Believe nothing, especially what I'm saying. But to say none of it exists? That's just an opinion, which we're all entitled
to.

You seem to want this to fit a particular peg in the board. It's not. Anyone who's dealt directly with this phenomena knows it's not. Sorry.

We have to be very careful, and very precise with the words we use. One wrong word can ruin your life. For more on this, check out:

The Word as a Physiological and Therapeutic Factor: The Theory and Practice of Psychotherapy According to I. P. Pavlov

Amazon.com: The Word as a Physiological and Therapeutic Factor: The Theory and Practice of Psychotherapy According to I. P. Pavlov (9781410205506): K. I. Platonov: Books

"Unsound intellection is false understanding, not resting on a
perception of the true nature of things.

When the object is not truly perceived, when the observation is
inaccurate and faulty. thought or reasoning based on that mistaken
perception is of necessity false and unsound."

Yoga Sutras of Patanjali
 
Commander John J. Adams: What is the Id?
Dr. Edward Morbius: [frustrated] Id, Id, Id, Id, Id!
[calming down]
Dr. Edward Morbius: It's a... It's an obsolete term. I'm afraid once used to describe the elementary basis of the subconscious mind.
Commander John J. Adams: [to himself] Monsters from the Id...
Dr. Edward Morbius: Huh?
Commander John J. Adams: Monsters from the subconscious. Of course. That's what Doc meant. Morbius. The big machine, 8,000 miles of klystron relays, enough power for a whole population of creative geniuses, operated by remote control. Morbius, operated by the electromagnetic impulses of individual Krell brains.
Dr. Edward Morbius: To what purpose?
Commander John J. Adams: In return, that ultimate machine would instantaneously project solid matter to any point on the planet, In any shape or color they might imagine. For *any* purpose, Morbius! Creation by mere thought.
Dr. Edward Morbius: Why haven't I seen this all along?
Commander John J. Adams: But like you, the Krell forgot one deadly danger - their own subconscious hate and lust for destruction.
Dr. Edward Morbius: The beast. The mindless primitive! Even the Krell must have evolved from that beginning.
Commander John J. Adams: And so those mindless beasts of the subconscious had access to a machine that could never be shut down. The secret devil of every soul on the planet all set free at once to loot and maim. And take revenge, Morbius, and kill!
Dr. Edward Morbius: My poor Krell. After a million years of shining sanity, they could hardly have understood what power was destroying them.
[pause]
Dr. Edward Morbius: Yes, young man, all very convincing, but for one obvious fallacy. The last Krell died 2,000 centuries ago. But today, as we all know, there is still at large on this planet a living monster.
Commander John J. Adams: Your mind refuses to face the conclusion.
Dr. Edward Morbius: What do you mean?

Forbidden Planet (1956) - Trivia - IMDb

Konrad, you are THE MAN!!:D Classic stuff.
 
The problem is that the djinn/demon explanation doesn't really explain anything, it's simply invoking the supernatural at the limits of our current knowledge. This in and of itself isn't horrible, it has been done for thousands of years and by more brilliant minds than ours, the problem is it doesn't get us anywhere. Newton did the same thing with planetary orbits, but we can look back now and see that if he had just kept going he could've solved his problem, he had all of the tools he needed, he just gave up and said "it must be the hand of god that keeps the system from spiraling into chaos." Thankfully, someone came along years later and didn't accept that explanation, because we now have a real answer to the problem, instead of an imagined supernatural explanation. That's exactly what invoking the supernatural as an explanation is, it's giving up. We can do better, we have done better and we will do better in the future. Even if there is some component of our current reality that eludes us, that doesn't mean it will elude us forever. I'd prefer that we kept looking, rather than tossing up our hands and consigning the whole thing to the realm of the unknown permanently.
 
As much as I love folklore, which may be the reason to my acceptance of paranormal reasons behind unexplained phenomena I do admit that it carries a lot of baggage. At the risk of detailing this thread...I've been meaning to post this thought for some time...if a person on the level of brain greene or lisa randell (spl?) came out with a mathmatical equation that made paranormal explanations a plausible answer...something on the level of einsteins explanation on gravity which from what I understand wasn't proven until two years ago but accepted as probable in the accompanying years would any of you guys be more open to it (paranormal explanations)
 
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