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Roundtable (10 May)

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First off great show fellas. I really enjoyed listening to this roundtable discussion and thought everyone involved, from presenters to guests, offered an insightful look into a field often clouded with lies and personal agendas. The whole idea of using critical thinking and being open to the possibility of anything and not just seeking one ultimate answer was bang on in my opinion and this was truly refreshing to hear.

As for the whole Roswell thing, I also agree with pretty much everything said and it's time to let it go. We're well past the point of being able to take any definitive answers away in regards to what occurred in the New Mexican desert back in 1947, let's start looking forward to what is happening now. If we, and the field as a whole, spent half the energy looking at events which are currently unfolding before our eyes instead of focusing on events which occurred so far the past we might then gain some real insight into the phenomena. Hell even if we shifted our focus to events such as Shag Harbour, Varginha, Rendlesham etc. which weren't so long ago. It's time that Roswell is no longer regarded as the "Holy Grail" of ufology.

Anyways guys, once again, brilliant show and it was amazing to listen to so many forward thinking individuals come together like this. I hope to hear everyone back again in the future!
 
paulkimball said:
Ahh, the irony - that's exactly how Greg, Nick, Mac and I usually feel whenever we have to deal with the nuts-and-bolts die-hards who have run UFO research into the ground over the past 30 years. ;)
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IMHO, the input from a trained nuclear physicist should offer a bleeding edge interpretation of the phenomenon, as far as what is testable by human brains right now. A scientific perspective can be presented to peers and be evaluated, duplicated to be subsequently validated or debunked.

When a scientific mind gives credibility to something like MJ-12, there's usually a very convincing structured foundation of evidence or experience that supports the idea. If there isn't and the argumentation is weak, it should be fairly evident to everybody.

What currently lies beyond testability and offerred as a solution may have validity and may be the correct answer... but it cannot be validated/debunked. For example, look at all the varied interpretations that religions offer to solve the 'meaning of life' question. Is this the direction ufology should take ?

At this point in time, UFOlogy looks a bit like a scaled down version of the evolution/creationist tirade... with incomplete data they both cannot be fully be proven wrong.

However, there is enormous pressure on a 'nuts and bolts' persona like Stanton Friedman who has to/should conform to scientific standards and methodology. I reasonably expect that, after more than 30 years in the field, the solidity of his argumentation on the MJ-12 issue will be compelling.
 
I enjoyed Stanton's Mj-12 book. The Truman signature and Bill Moore's involvement kill it for me though. Anyone have a picture of Bill Moore's thumb? I'd like to compare it with the photo that shows a thumb in it. If I remember correctly, one of the photos of the documents, (or more than one) show's someone's thumb. Wonder if anyone has tried to see if there's a match. Sorry, if that sounds silly btw.

I heard Paul mention some work Brad Spark's (think it was him) has done. I'm not sure if I'm familiar with it or not. Sometime later I'll hopefully find it and give it a read. I hopefully should be able to find it in a search, but if anyone has a link to it, feel free to post or PM it to me. Thanks.
 
Ezechiel said:
However, there is enormous pressure on a 'nuts and bolts' persona like Stanton Friedman who has to/should conform to scientific standards and methodology. I reasonably expect that, after more than 30 years in the field, the solidity of his argumentation on the MJ-12 issue will be compelling.
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And just what, exactly, is Stan's training as a historian, which is what the MJ-12 question is really all about? Sure, he's rumaged through plenty of archives, but what Stan lacks is an understanding of context. He's good at mining data (like the Menzel papers), but that alone doesn't make one a competent interpreter of the data itself. Stan sees what he wants to see with MJ-12, and always has, because it buttresses his conclusions re: Roswell. If anything, his pre-existing belief in the Roswell crash scenario should have disqualified him from looking into the MJ-12 docs, because his objectivity was compromised from the get-go.

As for his qualifications as a scientist, that's nothing more than an appeal to authority. Carl Sagan was a scientist, and a better and more experienced one than Stan (with a Ph.D.) - by your reasoning, that should make him more reliable than Stan. With MJ-12, I'm happy to agree if that's the way you want to play it. ;)
 
Brad wrote a paper on the MJ-12 docs for MUFON. I believe a search of the MUFON docs at the Black Vault should bring it up. It's fairly compelling, just ignore the fact that Kal Korff is in one of the footnotes...
 
Nice show, I like all the speakers but I feel like it was sort of a preaching-to-the-choir episode.

I think the audience for the paracast is generally more informed regarding these topics, and the informed public has for the most part already dropped the ETH, Roswell and MJ12. There are no active threads here on those subjects, for example. The informed public also agrees that the mass media does a very poor job of informing everyone, and already entertains the possibility that there is a thread of connection between all the various paranormal phenomenon.

I could be mistaken though. What do you guys think? I would assume that paracast listeners would be slightly more discerning than the average joe.

Regardless of all that, it's always interesting to listen to experts chatting so no real complaints here.

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On a tangent note, David mentioned the video proof supporting the validity of the Arigo story. He specifically cites documentary film footage of a woman being operated upon while wide awake.

Well I couldn't help but recall my "debate" on an earlier thread about the fact that hypnosis *can* work, and some guy was asserting that hypnosis never works. I specifically cited documentary film footage of a woman being operated upon while wide awake, after being hypnotically anesthetized. In addition to this, video footage of a man who was released from prison based upon hypnotically-recovered lost memory.

I say if it's good enough for Arigo, then it's good enough for hypnosis.
 
BrandonD said:
Nice show, I like all the speakers but I feel like it was sort of a preaching-to-the-choir episode.

I think the audience for the paracast is generally more informed regarding these topics, and the informed public has for the most part already dropped the ETH, Roswell and MJ12. There are no active threads here on those subjects, for example. The informed public also agrees that the mass media does a very poor job of informing everyone, and already entertains the possibility that there is a thread of connection between all the various paranormal phenomenon.

I could be mistaken though. What do you guys think? I would assume that paracast listeners would be slightly more discerning than the average joe.

Regardless of all that, it's always interesting to listen to experts chatting so no real complaints here.

--------

On a tangent note, David mentioned the video proof supporting the validity of the Arigo story. He specifically cites documentary film footage of a woman being operated upon while wide awake.

Well I couldn't help but recall my "debate" on an earlier thread about the fact that hypnosis *can* work, and some guy was asserting that hypnosis never works. I specifically cited documentary film footage of a woman being operated upon while wide awake, after being hypnotically anesthetized. In addition to this, video footage of a man who was released from prison based upon hypnotically-recovered lost memory.

I say if it's good enough for Arigo, then it's good enough for hypnosis.
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I'll just speak for my self. I haven't dropped the ETH. It's still on the table. I don't read up on Roswell or MJ-12 as much these days, but every now and then still will.
 
Aaron LeClair said:
I'll just speak for my self. I haven't dropped the ETH. It's still on the table. I don't read up on Roswell or MJ-12 as much these days, but every now and then still will.
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I guess not so much dropped it entirely, but rather dropped it as the "end-all-be-all" of the ufo mystery.
 
paulkimball said:
And just what, exactly, is Stan's training as a historian, which is what the MJ-12 question is really all about? Sure, he's rumaged through plenty of archives, but what Stan lacks is an understanding of context.
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I think he's invested a lot of time and energy understanding the Roswell context and sequence of events. If MJ-12 is a critical support block and it fails the litmus test, an important part of the 'nuts and bolts' argumentation for Roswell should crash.

That's why having Stanton Friedman on the show to defend his points and credibility as a contextual historian will be interesting to hear. He is very eloquent with many years of debating experience... enough to drive ufology down to the ground as you say.:D

That's what science is all about, presenting an idea and watching how it flies ;) Friedman, Sagan, etc.. present ideas that reflect their backgrounds and the current state of scientific research at the time they formulate the idea. Understanding historical context is a very important component... in the end, its all about doing your homework.
 
We're happy to have him back, but certainly we'd want a credible debater to present a contrary point of view on MJ-12, someone who can handle himself or herself just as well. We're definitely considering such a segment.
 
Gene Steinberg said:
We're happy to have him back, but certainly we'd want a credible debater to present a contrary point of view on MJ-12, someone who can handle himself or herself just as well. We're definitely considering such a segment.
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Kevin Randle comes to mind, but I think he and Stanton are probably sick of discussing it with one another.
 
And maybe we're a little sick of hearing the same ole, same ole, but there are a few issues that ought to be put to bed once and for all. That, however, doesn't always happen.
 
Gene Steinberg said:
We're happy to have him back, but certainly we'd want a credible debater to present a contrary point of view on MJ-12, someone who can handle himself or herself just as well. We're definitely considering such a segment.
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Id rather you get Ryan Wood instead of Stan.

I could be wrong, but he has done more research into the matter I think.
 
Gene Steinberg said:
And maybe we're a little sick of hearing the same ole, same ole, but there are a few issues that ought to be put to bed once and for all. That, however, doesn't always happen.
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Yes, there are a lot of things regarding MJ12 that should be put to bed. Have any researchers moved beyond the debate of the MJ12 content itself and delved into the origin of the MJ12 papers? It would be interesting to hear more from them.

Granted, it's an obvious digression from the main topic, but I've been fascinated by the whole MJ12/Doty/Bennewitz topic since I read Tim Good's Alien Contact. This is an example of how the field has become as intriguing as the phenomenon.

-todd
 
I wouldnt be suprised if all of the people mentioned in the MJ12 documents actually were in a group called MJ12, but that it had nothing to do with aliens, and nothing to do with the MJ12 of Doty/Moore etc.
There's no real proof for this ofcourse but i wouldnt be suprised.
 
Thanks, that was an interesting show. I agree that Roswell should be put to bed. I think that Rendlesham and the nuke-UFO incidents should be the focus.

Sounded like David had a call to arms for everyone to get something done about his sighting. Maybe you guys can create some kind of investigative team. :confused:
 
Well, I expected to enjoy the episode, and I did. Those three guys are always "entertaining," when they're together, to use a dirty word. I've been an admirer of PK's tough but fair style pretty much as long as he's been playing in this sandbox, and I was introduced to Nick Redfern and Greg Bishop through his blog and also by Tim Binnall's podcast. Don't expect to hear anything new, however:

Roswell is too old to solve. It's no longer and may never have been relevant.

There are much better cases than Roswell. Just watch Paul's documentary. You know, the one that you can't find here in the States. :)

UFO's might not be alien spacecraft. This is a big deal to a lot of people.

People who have accepted the idea that aliens are here have automatically surrendered their credibility and probably their sanity.

The following people will be bashed: Harris, Bassett, Webre, Greer, Meier

Bonus bash: SETI

The following people will be lauded: Vallee, Kaku, Tonnies, Corralles

Oh, and there's a lot of weird sh*t going on in South America.

See, I didn't need to listen to this ep at all! :D
 
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