salvia divinorum

[CapnG]

Ask yourself which one of us is making the assumptions here. Which one of us is assuming that people, in their ordinary state, are able to perceive everything around them in their world exactly as it is?

Evidently, I am. But equally are you assuming this is not the case. Now, the fact of the matter is there are a great many things in both the light spectrum and audio frequency spectrum that I cannot percieve but none of that accounts for the radical shifts you're talking about.

There are a tribe of men in the jungle who are all red/green color blind. Put a tomato and a leaf in front of them and they see the same colors for both. One of the tribal members ingests a substance, and in his altered state he sees that the tomato and the leaf are two distinctly different colors.

Stop. Which colours? Blue and yellow? Magenta and grey? I had a friend in college who told me about how when did acid he percieved snow as smurf-blue. Should I then assume that I am mis-interpretting snow because my chemically induced collegue has pronounced it so?

The man ingesting the plant once again sees these strange new colors.

Why would that happen? By all indications from people I've talked to who have taken drugs, trips tend to be unique.

He comes out of the altered state, and they all watch the video. In the video, all they see throughout the ceremony are two identically colored objects sitting there. So the tribe decides that the man ingesting the substance is simply "tripping balls", and nothing he perceives should be taken seriously.

And quite rightly so! Have you ever dealt with someone who is mentally ill? I have, it's unpleasant and extremely frustrating. No amount of demonstration, illustration, logical discussion or explanation can break them of their convictions, no matter how absurd. Such individuals aren't seeing "alternate realities" however, they're sick and in need of help. Why then should voluntary insanity be considered a "valid" experience?

There's no reason to accept any of this as a factual metaphor, but it should be held as a possibility that we might be unable to discover the true nature of reality by staying within our ivory tower and peering out the window. Perhaps sometimes the only road is direct experience.

Possibilities are all well and good but considering them superior to probablities is just silly in my book. Remaining in the ivory tower forever is not necessary but I don't see the point in leaving if there's nowhere worth going. Meantime, peering out the window is better than throwing oneself out it on the off chance you can fly and just don't know it... and a helluva way to find out for sure!

 

[Don Keyhoe-Ti]

I took this once, and apparently I walked around our shared house with no trousers for two days! So at least everyone got a good laugh.

My only recollection was sitting around with friends, (with pants on,) when the stuff kicked in ..."This is not real...THIS IS NOT REAL!!!!!...this is not real!" It was like some monkey was pressing a lever attached to the "this is not real" button in my brain, like that's how the monkey got it's daily feed or whatever. It didn't come along with any particular paranoia at all, just a very insistent "this is not real" impulse. I was looking around for any clues as to exactly what just wasn't real, but everything seemed as mundane as you could like.

Weighing the pros & the cons, I wouldn't recommend it to an arsehole.

 

[BrandonD]

I took this once, and apparently I walked around our shared house with no trousers for two days! So at least everyone got a good laugh.

That's very odd, considering that the effects last about 15 minutes max. For myself, it was about 5.

 

[grannysmith]

Jusr because OP wondered about other countries : salvi is legal in the UK - some head shops sell it.

 

[BrandonD]

Evidently, I am. But equally are you assuming this is not the case.

Not true. I'm making no assumptions, which is why I investigate. Those who make assumptions, like yourself in this particular case, do not investigate because they have assumed the answer is already known. It's important for me to assume as little as possible regarding things that I don't know first-hand.

Possibilities are all well and good but considering them superior to probablities is just silly in my book.

I agree. So I can't figure out why you keep doing it

Remaining in the ivory tower forever is not necessary but I don't see the point in leaving if there's nowhere worth going. Meantime, peering out the window is better than throwing oneself out it on the off chance you can fly and just don't know it... and a helluva way to find out for sure!

Is there nowhere worth going? Are you sure?

Looking at things from a sociological point of view, the dumbest people in my life have been quite certain about everything. They have strong and unbending opinions, backed by massive emotional programs. It is a psychological trait that they all have in common, I can't think of a single exception.

On the other hand, the most intelligent and insightful people in my life have often admitted that they don't know much, and that they feel they know less as they get older, rather than more. Some people parrot this stance to others, because they recognize it as the stance of an intelligent person, but the fakers don't reflect these words in their behavior.

I'm not making any personal jabs at your intelligence here, certainty in our own picture of the world is a fault we all share to some degree. We're all humans here (as far as I know), and we all happen to be subject to human psychology. So consider that just possibly... something that you consider to be absolutely true right now may not necessarily be so. Once that door is opened, points of view other than your own might seem less wacky.

But still, I can't argue with you that my method is not the safest way to go about learning. There are possible risks involved. But I honestly don't feel there are many options open to one who is interested in direct firsthand knowledge of the greater reality, which one will never get from talking about it.

 

[CapnG]

Possibilities are all well and good but considering them superior to probablities is just silly in my book.

I agree. So I can't figure out why you keep doing it

The probablities make psychedelics out to be nothing more than hallucinations. The reasearch points to it and the accounts of our fellow Parasites (I'm gonna make that name stick if it kills me!) who are "experienced" back it up. There only remains the thin posibility that there is more to it. Feel free to disagree but as things stand this is how it appears to me.

Is there nowhere worth going? Are you sure?

Nope but I see no reason to waste my time punting around outside the tower on the off chance I spot something interesting. If something shows up on the horizon I'll consider investingating it. I'm not one of those people who just gets in there car and "goes for a drive", I haven't got time for such things, I got shit to do.

Looking at things from a sociological point of view, the dumbest people in my life have been quite certain about everything. They have strong and unbending opinions, backed by massive emotional programs. It is a psychological trait that they all have in common, I can't think of a single exception.

There's a word for people like that: politicians!

So consider that just possibly... something that you consider to be absolutely true right now may not necessarily be so. Once that door is opened, points of view other than your own might seem less wacky.

I make that consideration all the time (wouldn't be on this board if I didn't). But then I consider whether or not there's any proof for that notion and if I find none, I move on. If it comes up again I'll re-examine it.

But still, I can't argue with you that my method is not the safest way to go about learning. There are possible risks involved. But I honestly don't feel there are many options open to one who is interested in direct firsthand knowledge of the greater reality, which one will never get from talking about it.

Well you're a braver (or perhaps more foolish) man than I. I won't play russian roulette even with a billion chambers in the gun. The thing is you're still assuming that a) there actually is a greater reality and b) that direct, firsthand knowledge of it is attainable. I'm not convinced of either.

 

[Brian Now]

I think I have heard of this plant, as well as the datura that someone else was describing but have never taken either.

Salvia seems to be the lighter of the two, and I don't see any problem at all experimenting with it. Many people have.
I have felt sort of like this before though never heard people say something they didn't say. But then I seem to be highly resistant to hallucinations...believe me, I have tried!
One thing that used to make me feel like Brandon's trip was mixing alcohol and marijuana. I know, I know, there should be no conflict...but in my body there is and it bends and distorts my mind in ways LSD never did...not fun, not fun at all...and it's just alcohol and pot!

I think it is plausible that mind altering substances can change your perception enough to experience something paranormal (assuming "paranormal" exists and lies outside our perception, which I'm willing to assume), just as long as we don't forget they also have very real, mundane effects on our minds.

 

[DBTrek]

I think it is plausible that mind altering substances can change your perception enough to experience something paranormal (assuming "paranormal" exists and lies outside our perception, which I'm willing to assume), just as long as we don't forget they also have very real, mundane effects on our minds.

LIKE EGGS IN A FRYING PAN!

[size=small]*SIZZLE!* *SIZZLE!*[/size]

YOU HAD TO GO AND SMOKE THE REEFER AND NOW YO BRAIN IS SUNNY SIDE UP!!!

 

[Ron Collins]

I don't buy into this notion of language being limited either. There are now over 1,000,000 words in the english language! If you can't say what you mean, I say expand your vocabulary! To simply declare "there are no words" is laziness. Explainations need not be poetic. Inelegance is secondary to accuracy in it's importance where information is concerned.

Elegant and accurate in my estimation! Well said, sir!

 

[Ron Collins]

There are 1,000,000 words in the english language, yet the amount of known species on the earth is almost double that number.

And each one is named in Latin. Just thought I would point that out.

Some say the Inuit have over 30 words to describe snow. The point is, we as a culture begin using words as a descriptor when it is deemed important to distinguish meaning. Repeatable experiences give us this importance. Psychedelic experiences offer us plenty of quantifiable symptoms, but no repeatable pearls of wisdom from dimension X.

The thing is, are you willing to trade one reality for another? Psychedelic experiences are chemically induced. You start jacking with your brains chemistry and bad things happen. You could be lucky and nothing significantly bad will happen, you can be unlucky and slip into a coma or have an aneurism and die. You could become that guy we all knew in college, "Dude, seriously you gotta try this shit! Im like so enlightened right now!". That guy never turned out well.

Good luck with the quest. I just honestly hope you look at the things you have in this reality and the lives your early demise would affect before you pack your bags for your next trip.

 

[TClaeys]

Well you're a braver (or perhaps more foolish) man than I. I won't play russian roulette even with a billion chambers in the gun. The thing is you're still assuming that a) there actually is a greater reality and b) that direct, firsthand knowledge of it is attainable. I'm not convinced of either.

There are plenty of things that we do in our everyday lives that inherently dangerous. Especially at a billion to one. Have you ever smoked, got up on a ladder, passed someone in your car, ate trans fat, breathed in Los Angelas, not worn sunscreen? Sure these aren't some path to open enlightenment, but they are risks we take all the time that could be prevented. But we do them anyway.

In the context of this thread, I just think you are being especially hard on someone for doing what they want to do and sharing experiences. Risk is risk, whether it is a drug experiment or driving too fast or whatever. And as far as Brandons observations, perhaps they are useful in some way.

Perhaps the paranormal and drug hallucinations are the same thing. Perhaps the paranormal isn't what we think it might be. Perhaps it is a hallucination as well. They both seem very real. They both can envoke powerful feelings that last a lifetime. Likewise we have no proof that either actually happened. This goes for abductions as well. No proof, but very real experiences.

Ron Collins wrote:
"""Psychedelic experiences are chemically induced. You start jacking with your brains chemistry and bad things happen. You could be lucky and nothing significantly bad will happen, you can be unlucky and slip into a coma or have an aneurism and die. """ Endquote

Yes perhaps "the paranormal" is also chemically induced. How so, I don't know, but it seems to be the same side of the coin.

And as far as the other comments, what evidence that a one time user(or repeated user) of Salvia would have an aneurism and die? I haven't come across that information. In fact what I read mostly is that we(the media) compare Salvia to LSD and assume the effects are the same and brains will begin to melt after repeated use, when there is no evidence to indicate this. Chemical structure is different, effects are different, and physical after effects are different.

Some of the posts remind me of the 50's or 60's "Reefer Madness" campaign. Brains frying? There seems to be common belief among people that drugs are bad and evil. Yet we are glad to accept, sell, and promote "legal" drugs that literally dsetroy lives daily.

So keeping with the subject of paranormal and salvia. Just maybe there is something in psychedics that may crossover into an understanding to the paranormal. If we study the effects and catalysts and causes of hallucination then we may begin to understand why people "get abducted" or "see ghosts" or even UFO's.

On the other hand maybe the two aren't the same. It's just a thought. And with a better understanding of psychedlics, brain chemistry, and the physical and chemical embodiement of experiencers maybe we come away with something.

Then again, maybe there is a window to "paranormal" that IS chemically induced. I don't think so, but shamans might disagree.

Oh yeah, sorry I suck with the quoting thing. Forum member in training.