September 10, 2017 — Daniel Liszt, the Dark Journalist

[Linton]

I’m not sure where all of this angry political banter is coming from. I really didn’t get a political vibe out of the show at all, and Gene was pretty quick to stifle anything that would have leaned heavily one way or the other.

Perhaps in his own arena, or on other shows, Daniel has expressed some strong political attitude, but on this show, at least, he came across as one the most level headed, sensible, open-minded guests that you have had. When it comes to ufology and paranormal claims he seems pretty quick to call people on B.S. and willing to give others the benefit of the doubt if there isn’t enough to counter their claims. He came across as a truth seeker, and oddly that tends to make people very uncomfortable, because it often tends to take one down a path somewhere in the middle…or off the map entirely.

A big problem with ufology and paranormal research in general is that so many want you to fall into one camp or another and drive the research in that particular direction. As demonstrated by this feed, people take the same approach with their politics. There doesn’t seem to be much room for pointing out the realities residing on all sides and calling either side on their nonsense.

Its like we live in a world where all of our groceries come as package deals. If you want oranges, then you can only purchase the bag that comes along with blue cheese taffy and fish oil lollypops, but if you want apples then you can only buy the bag that includes pickled grubs, and a tin of questionably prepared blowfish. You can’t buy both apples and oranges. That would be lunacy! That sort of approach hinders any sort of potential for progress if one’s research or even one’s thoughts on a subject are going to be rejected simply on principal.

People want you to be either friend or foe, and get REALLY uncomfortable if you won’t pick a side, and choose to simply observe reality; not the filtered “reality” from this perspective or that, but actual observable this-is-what-is-what reality.

Pulling in political/world views does little for the big conversation. What are my views on the breeding habits of cats? Who cares? It has nothing to do with the conversation (unless the coversation started with "so, there were these two cats mysteriously floating across my room when all of a sudden they began to..."). I find it perplexing that one's political view should have ANY sort of worth or impact when dealing with these subjects. If they do, then, frankly, you’re going about it all wrong and wasting everyone’s time (including your own) with your nonsense. If you want to debate politics, run for office. The rest of us are here are trying to chisel out answers from a big ol’ block of the confounding.

More guests like Daniel would certainly be welcome; it’s a shame the discussion here hasn’t lived up to the show.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Gene,
Other podcast on technology and gather you will review the new IPhone (looks like a Samsung and other Chinese products) . On the matter of cyber the groups who's using their call sign "Dragonfly" should be hunted down and removed from this earth.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I am in touch with Apple so we'll see what they choose to send. I haven't asked for an Apple Watch, and trying to justify why I'd need one instead of my $12.88 Walmart stainless steel watch.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Shea, I'm sure your a nice man and you have good intentions.

In the words of Neil DeGrasse Tyson:

"A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you're doing it right, but not enough to know you're doing it wrong."

So what do I "Stand for", roughly speaking:

Freedom of speech & civil discourse NOT shutting down of opinion & thought control

Personal responsibility and ability to control your own results NOT Victim culture and externalising blame

Facts and mass data trends to drive policy NOT Feelings and individual human interest stories

Identity = Character & actions of the individual NOT skin colour, gender or sexuality

True diversity is diversity of thoughts and ideas NOT diversity of race/sex/sexuality who all think the same

Promoting paradigm challenges NOT group think paradigm preservers

And based on those principles the Democratic party have excluded me by default

I doubt there is anyone who would disagree with your lovely lofty sentiments here. But how this manifests as policy is the problem, isn't it? I see that you still refuse to take this step and comment on the actual conservative policy actions that the glorious GOP has taken since Trump became President and their goals. Anyone can say they believe in freedom, for example. But does that then translate to a total lack of regulation on business, promoting a totally free marketplace where environmental concerns are a restriction on that freedom? How about the GOP agenda in several states to claim that people have the freedom to drive into protesters (Assumed liberal) with their cars? Yes, this is actually being prepared as bills in several GOP controlled states.

You see, anyone can believe in Freedom, but what does that mean in terms of policy? I will stick with the much more benevolent community minded definition of progressives instead of the "every man for himself" rat race definition of the conservative.

 

[Paul Kimball]

Clinton did win, by about 3 million votes. In any game, if you get the most points, you win. Imagine telling the New England Patriots that they lost the Super Bowl last year because points scored in the first half counted for more than those scored in the second half (and also that the game was probably fixed by gamblers from Russia). Absurd.

In an actual democracy, that would have been the end of it. But thanks to the archaic Electoral College, you now have a bona fide loser as the President. The republic is so full of bananas at this point, you could feed an army of chimps for years.

 

[kanakaris]

Clinton did win, by about 3 million votes. In any game, if you get the most points, you win. Imagine telling the New England Patriots that they lost the Super Bowl last year because points scored in the first half counted for more than those scored in the second half (and also that the game was probably fixed by gamblers from Russia). Absurd.

In an actual democracy, that would have been the end of it. But thanks to the archaic Electoral College, you now have a bona fide loser as the President. The republic is so full of bananas at this point, you could feed an army of chimps for years.

And what was the idea behind this electoral college ?To prevent that some demagogue would become president ?
Hm...

 

[Randall]

I'm not as up on all the politics and nuances that connect ufology to liberal vs. right wing politics. I'm more outside that ketchup bottle. Consequently I enjoyed the episode because of the relatively high knowledge on those issues by everyone on the show. In particular I feel that the unethical behavior by pro-CG people was, assuming that's all true, ( and I don't have any reasons to think it wasn't ) a necessary exposé. Journalists ( Dark or otherwise ) IMO have a responsibility to expose that kind of stuff, and to know that MUFON gives guys like CG any platform at all shows how the organization simply cannot be taken seriously, especially its motto that portrays it as being scientific.

Also what I really liked about the approach was that it wasn't using the various examples as reasons to simply trash ufology itself, but to expose specific problems created by specific people in an effort to move attention toward better sources. I'd like to see Liszt appear for at least part of a show on a monthly basis to update us on the dark goings on within paranormal, ufology, scientific and skeptical camps ( but leave mundane political issues out of it ).

 

[technomage]

I'm not as up on all the politics and nuances that connect ufology to liberal vs. right wing politics. I'm more outside that ketchup bottle. Consequently I enjoyed the episode because of the relatively high knowledge on those issues by everyone on the show. In particular I feel that the unethical behavior by pro-CG people was, assuming that's all true, ( and I don't have any reasons to think it wasn't ) a necessary exposé. Journalists ( Dark or otherwise ) IMO have a responsibility to expose that kind of stuff, and to know that MUFON gives guys like CG any platform at all shows how the organization simply cannot be taken seriously, especially its motto that portrays it as being scientific.

Also what I really liked about the approach was that it wasn't using the various examples as reasons to simply trash ufology itself, but to expose specific problems created by specific people in an effort to move attention toward better sources. I'd like to see Liszt appear for at least part of a show on a monthly basis to update us on the dark goings on within paranormal, ufology, scientific and skeptical camps ( but leave mundane political issues out of it ).

I'm not interested in hearing about politics on the show or reading about it in the forums. This is not why I listen to the show or go to the forums. I have simply ignored people who have posted political commentary (outside of the political thread) that had no paranormal bearing whatsoever.

Regarding this particular episode, Chris asked a particular question about media bias and Daniel answered it and some politics was involved in the answer as it couldn't be avoided. Gene, however, did a good job of moving the subject away from that and I think it was very well handled.

Regarding your points: I'm in total agreement.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

I probably started the political bent on this thread. I took my cue from Gene on the ATP episode where he initially took Daniel to task for some of his (to me) right wing views in the actual Paracast episode. Then just as it got interesting and others added their 2 cents, Gene shut it down. I have a long history of observing Daniel so I posted my thoughts on his views which entail total support for Donald Trump and the GOP. Then another poster started responding with right wing generalizations, and the debate was begun. The right winger just tried to laugh me off and refused to answer direct questions, which is par for the course.

I realize this is not the political area of the forum so I will cease and desist. On a personal basis, after 7 months of this "regime" in DC, I am just totally fed up, and have a very short fuse when glib right wing remarks are made. I envy the people here who can live in blissful ignorance of what is going on in the USA. But I again understand how irrelevant it is to the subject matter.

This is not blame, but if Gene had not taken Daniel to task on ATP, I would not have felt empowered to fill in the blanks about Daniel and the impact of right wing conspiracy theory on ufology as a whole. Then someone else started making glib generations supporting a right wing view, and I tried to nail the guy and make him take ownership of what his beliefs led to in terms of policy.

Sorry it bored some of you who again have somehow been able to float above all this the last 7 months. It won't happen again.

Note: If I was really casting a great shadow on the picnic, I am sure a private message from Gene or Chris would have sufficed to have me cool it.

 

[Celeste]

I'm not sure why this had to devolve into a political word war, but in another situation, I would enjoy some political discussion. However, it isn't going to change people's minds. People see what they want to see and their minds are made up. A discussion on a message board isn't going to change any minds. What I have noticed is that the pendulum swings and will change with the generations. Our parents generation was quite conservative, as was the nation as a whole, up through the 50s. When people began to grow a conscience, things began to swing left. As things will often do, they swung so far to the left it was getting ridiculous, so now we have the inevitable backlash. The young always seem to blame their parent's generation and take a turn in the opposite direction. I listen to a podcast with two guys who are in their 30s. One of them defends his fall into conservatism as a rebellion against the mainstream. Liberalism has been mainstream for decades now and he prides himself in being 'counter-culture'. So he considers his conservatism as his counter-culture rebellion. I often wonder if a lot of people stick their finger in the wind to figure out which way the trend is going and then decide to go the other way.

I was born into a democratic household, but it wasn't anywhere close to the extreme end. These days there isn't a place for the majority of us who fall into the more moderate category. You have to be one extreme or the other. I came of age in the early 70s and lived through the Man Men era and it isn't a time or place I wish to repeat. When the civil right's demonstrations were in full-force I was in college. and I fully supported them. Feminism became a way of life for me. I grew up fully committed to bringing basic human rights to everyone. There is absolutely nothing in my being that believes that I am more deserving of the life I lead than anyone else in the world. I inherited my life as an accident of birth. I could as easily have been born starving in Africa. This practice of social Darwinism is not acceptable. There is enough wealth in the world to feed and clothe every human being and instead, we grab everything we can get for ourselves and to hell with anyone else. I just don't get that mentality. I would gladly pay more in taxes to ensure that everyone could have the same privilege as I have, to insure that people over 67.5 years of age have access to quality healthcare without having to sell their homes to cover premiums.

SheaOlmsford, I agree 100% with your comments. And Omnivourous Intellectual, Linton...YES! I love your comments about the package deals. I absolutely hate the assumption that one must buy the entire package. But then again, I hate labels.

So OK, all that said, I enjoyed the episode of The Paracast with Mr Lizst. I can't say I agreed with every word he said, but he did say what many of us are thinking or wondering about. I admit to being a Gaia TV watcher. However, I watch with my BS detector at full-mast. He focused on Corey Goode and David Wilcock, but there are a host of other people who, over the years have gone off the deep end. I watched a lot of these people rise to prominence on the Art Bell radio show, way back in the 90s. Sean David Morton, Linda Moulton-Howe, Ed Dames, John Lear, Richard C Hoagland, Al Bielek, Dannion Brinkley and a host of others. In the beginning, I bought into their stories, but then they kept coming back and coming back. Their stories grew into wilder and wilder tales, and have gone on to reach epic proportions. A week doesn't go by that I don't get emails from the Ed Dames people with the latest headlines splashed across the top saying, "Ed Dames Has Been Warning the World of this for Years!" "This is Your Final Warning!" I have listened to him babbling about the "Kill-Shot" forever, and like everyone else's dire predictions...it never happens! I'm open-minded enough to ponder the possibility, but it is ridiculous to think I can change anything by running out and buying Ed Dames remote viewing tapes.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with some of you about is the alien issue. Given the vastness of the universe, I don't find it much of a stretch to imagine an alien presence here. There are things happening that we can't explain, but I find it harder to imagine civilizations living in the Earth's core/mantle or extra-dimensional crossovers than alien presence.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

I'm not sure why this had to devolve into a political word war, but in another situation, I would enjoy some political discussion. However, it isn't going to change people's minds. People see what they want to see and their minds are made up. A discussion on a message board isn't going to change any minds. What I have noticed is that the pendulum swings and will change with the generations. Our parents generation was quite conservative, as was the nation as a whole, up through the 50s. When people began to grow a conscience, things began to swing left. As things will often do, they swung so far to the left it was getting ridiculous, so now we have the inevitable backlash. The young always seem to blame their parent's generation and take a turn in the opposite direction. I listen to a podcast with two guys who are in their 30s. One of them defends his fall into conservatism as a rebellion against the mainstream. Liberalism has been mainstream for decades now and he prides himself in being 'counter-culture'. So he considers his conservatism as his counter-culture rebellion. I often wonder if a lot of people stick their finger in the wind to figure out which way the trend is going and then decide to go the other way.

I was born into a democratic household, but it wasn't anywhere close to the extreme end. These days there isn't a place for the majority of us who fall into the more moderate category. You have to be one extreme or the other. I came of age in the early 70s and lived through the Man Men era and it isn't a time or place I wish to repeat. When the civil right's demonstrations were in full-force I was in college. and I fully supported them. Feminism became a way of life for me. I grew up fully committed to bringing basic human rights to everyone. There is absolutely nothing in my being that believes that I am more deserving of the life I lead than anyone else in the world. I inherited my life as an accident of birth. I could as easily have been born starving in Africa. This practice of social Darwinism is not acceptable. There is enough wealth in the world to feed and clothe every human being and instead, we grab everything we can get for ourselves and to hell with anyone else. I just don't get that mentality. I would gladly pay more in taxes to ensure that everyone could have the same privilege as I have, to insure that people over 67.5 years of age have access to quality healthcare without having to sell their homes to cover premiums.

SheaOlmsford, I agree 100% with your comments. And Omnivourous Intellectual, Linton...YES! I love your comments about the package deals. I absolutely hate the assumption that one must buy the entire package. But then again, I hate labels.

So OK, all that said, I enjoyed the episode of The Paracast with Mr Lizst. I can't say I agreed with every word he said, but he did say what many of us are thinking or wondering about. I admit to being a Gaia TV watcher. However, I watch with my BS detector at full-mast. He focused on Corey Goode and David Wilcock, but there are a host of other people who, over the years have gone off the deep end. I watched a lot of these people rise to prominence on the Art Bell radio show, way back in the 90s. Sean David Morton, Linda Moulton-Howe, Ed Dames, John Lear, Richard C Hoagland, Al Bielek, Dannion Brinkley and a host of others. In the beginning, I bought into their stories, but then they kept coming back and coming back. Their stories grew into wilder and wilder tales, and have gone on to reach epic proportions. A week doesn't go by that I don't get emails from the Ed Dames people with the latest headlines splashed across the top saying, "Ed Dames Has Been Warning the World of this for Years!" "This is Your Final Warning!" I have listened to him babbling about the "Kill-Shot" forever, and like everyone else's dire predictions...it never happens! I'm open-minded enough to ponder the possibility, but it is ridiculous to think I can change anything by running out and buying Ed Dames remote viewing tapes.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with some of you about is the alien issue. Given the vastness of the universe, I don't find it much of a stretch to imagine an alien presence here. There are things happening that we can't explain, but I find it harder to imagine civilizations living in the Earth's core/mantle or extra-dimensional crossovers than alien presence.

I enjoy listening to people and information that I do not consider at all true, merely for the entertainment level. For me, a rainy afternoon with some hot tea and cookies is perfect for listening to someone talking about the Archons, or the ET Reptilian agenda, or how our Pleiadian Space Brothers love our American square dancing and how Mabelline cosmetics draw many young Pleiadian maids to Earth! I tried GAIA for this purpose a couple times, but GAIA just takes it too far. There is entertainment and there is ludicrous absurdity, pomposity and indoctrination for financial ends. I just couldn't stomach GAIA. If I want to find some good trash ufology talk, I go to YOUTUBE where it is free. Right now I am enjoying Cameron Day who is trying to convince me that after death I should head for the molton core of the Earth, which is a portal back to Source at the center of our Galaxy. Cool, eh? LOL

In response to your social note: I also cannot respect citizens who rant and rave about the $36 a year in taxes that are paid for the food stamp program. I certainly feel compassion for the patients within the "Screw the Sick" mentality of for profit health care in the USA. Universal Health Care is the norm in just about every other advanced nation on Earth, but not in the heart of predatory capitalism. Anyway, keep your compassion and empathy, even if it is currently very unfashionable in the halls of government. I can only surmise that my beloved citizens who are indoctrinated to be hysterical about such programs simply have a stereotypical image of the average recipient that is very negative. I see single mothers, the poor, the elderly, the disabled, our vets..... It seems that many citizens automatically think such programs only assist Reagan's Black welfare mom with 10 kids (each with a different father) driving a new Cadillac.

Some of the folks here, to my new presence on the forums, are highly technical and much more mainstream science oriented. This offers them a vast world of knowledge, but can possibly at times limit the imagination. How many times have we seen some scientist as a talking head on a TV documentary proclaiming that space travel between stars is impossible (with the understanding in HIS mind that since humans do not know how to do it, then no one can do it anywhere). This is a common hubris. But I must admit I tend to think that aliens originate much closer to home, like distant cousins who show up when we win the lottery. If transversing dimensions seems too improbable, then maybe it is just semantics. They come from somewhere "over the rainbow" or within "Fairyland" or between 2 earth seconds of time (betwixt and between). That is my current take on it but it won't impress the hard core left brain scientists in our midst. They legitimately want to know HOW this can be true and I can't help them there.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

I'm not as up on all the politics and nuances that connect ufology to liberal vs. right wing politics. I'm more outside that ketchup bottle. Consequently I enjoyed the episode because of the relatively high knowledge on those issues by everyone on the show. In particular I feel that the unethical behavior by pro-CG people was, assuming that's all true, ( and I don't have any reasons to think it wasn't ) a necessary exposé. Journalists ( Dark or otherwise ) IMO have a responsibility to expose that kind of stuff, and to know that MUFON gives guys like CG any platform at all shows how the organization simply cannot be taken seriously, especially its motto that portrays it as being scientific.

Also what I really liked about the approach was that it wasn't using the various examples as reasons to simply trash ufology itself, but to expose specific problems created by specific people in an effort to move attention toward better sources. I'd like to see Liszt appear for at least part of a show on a monthly basis to update us on the dark goings on within paranormal, ufology, scientific and skeptical camps ( but leave mundane political issues out of it ).

My original point, which got lost immediately, was that many conspiracy theories that feed different camps of thought within ufology have an extreme right wing political foundation. At its most extreme, it can claim that Obama and Clinton are Reptilian shapeshifters with various nefarious goals. Giving Americans universal health care is simply a plot to help the Greys retrieve more DNA material via the government. Such theories are everywhere in ufology. They seem to stem from a great fear and distrust of government in any form so they may have strong Libertarian sympathies. This is not my original idea. Authors have remarked on how the New Age, especially channeling, has become increasingly harsh towards the prescribed "losers" in our society (gays, feminists, racial minorities).

There is a very strong undertow in ufology and the New Age trying to pull people increasingly rightward. For example, the famous Jim Marrs may have had a great folksy style and a sharp mind for conspiracy research, but immersion in all the conspiracies out there gave him an extremely conservative outlook on society (he also adored Trump).

I just threw this out there (which started the entire political discussion) because it is below the surface but very prevalent.

 

[Randall]

My original point, which got lost immediately, was that many conspiracy theories that feed different camps of thought within ufology have an extreme right wing political foundation. At its most extreme, it can claim that Obama and Clinton are Reptilian shapeshifters with various nefarious goals. Giving Americans universal health care is simply a plot to help the Greys retrieve more DNA material via the government. Such theories are everywhere in ufology. They seem to stem from a great fear and distrust of government in any form so they may have strong Libertarian sympathies. This is not my original idea. Authors have remarked on how the New Age, especially channeling, has become increasingly harsh towards the prescribed "losers" in our society (gays, feminists, racial minorities).

There is a very strong undertow in ufology and the New Age trying to pull people increasingly rightward. For example, the famous Jim Marrs may have had a great folksy style and a sharp mind for conspiracy research, but immersion in all the conspiracies out there gave him an extremely conservative outlook on society (he also adored Trump).

I just threw this out there (which started the entire political discussion) because it is below the surface but very prevalent.

Hmm. Interesting. Do you think that started with Reagan and his fortune tellers ( Quiqley ) or how far back does it go? Abraham Lincoln Vampire Killer?

 

[Celeste]

Some of the folks here, to my new presence on the forums, are highly technical and much more mainstream science oriented. This offers them a vast world of knowledge, but can possibly at times limit the imagination. How many times have we seen some scientist as a talking head on a TV documentary proclaiming that space travel between stars is impossible (with the understanding in HIS mind that since humans do not know how to do it, then no one can do it anywhere). This is a common hubris. But I must admit I tend to think that aliens originate much closer to home, like distant cousins who show up when we win the lottery. If transversing dimensions seems too improbable, then maybe it is just semantics. They come from somewhere "over the rainbow" or within "Fairyland" or between 2 earth seconds of time (betwixt and between). That is my current take on it but it won't impress the hard core left brain scientists in our midst. They legitimately want to know HOW this can be true and I can't help them there.

I freely admit that I'm no science expert. I can follow it up to a point and then I just tune out. It isn't my area of interest, although, as a nurse, I support the scientific method. However, I do believe that some things simply fall into a realm to which the scientific method does not always apply. When I encounter people who believe they have had 'alien experiences', I want to say, "Prove it." But it's a lot like religion, to me. I can't prove that there is no God, because I simply do not know, but if someone expects me to accept that there is, be prepared to prove it to me (and I do not consider the Bible to be proof). I'm pretty left-brained, but I'm no hard-core scientist. I've been floating around the fringes of 'new age' for most of my life. I don't take anything as gospel, but I love to ponder the possibilities.

 

[Randall]

I freely admit that I'm no science expert. I can follow it up to a point and then I just tune out. It isn't my area of interest, although, as a nurse, I support the scientific method. However, I do believe that some things simply fall into a realm to which the scientific method does not always apply. When I encounter people who believe they have had 'alien experiences', I want to say, "Prove it." But it's a lot like religion, to me. I can't prove that there is no God, because I simply do not know, but if someone expects me to accept that there is, be prepared to prove it to me (and I do not consider the Bible to be proof). I'm pretty left-brained, but I'm no hard-core scientist. I've been floating around the fringes of 'new age' for most of my life. I don't take anything as gospel, but I love to ponder the possibilities.

That's all a very reasonable place to be coming from.

When it comes to the existence of god, that seems rather simple to me, and that it's reasonable to believe they [gods ] exist ( at least for some people ), but that's only because of the way god is objectively defined ( as a deity of some sort ), not because in every case there is adequate evidence to prove the reality of that deity to everyone. Personally I'm not a deist, so for me there is no god. In an allegorical sense however, I do believe in goddesses e.g. mother nature. Technically that sort of makes me Neopagan.

Consequently your statement, "some things simply fall into a realm to which the scientific method does not always apply" totally resonates with me. Science takes us a long way, then critical thinking takes over for a long ways, but sometimes I get some unexplained sense of satisfaction from simply letting all that go and tuning into the moment, the raw experience of living, the full moon against the night sky, a falling star, the wonder in a child's eyes, before analyzing it to death.

 

[Walter Bosley]

I find it really entertaining that in a thread about an episode, the guest is the subject in only five or six posts out of three pages because one guy had to show his political boner. LMFAO

 

[SheaOlmsford]

I find it really entertaining that in a thread about an episode, the guest is the subject in only five or six posts out of three pages because one guy had to show his political boner. LMFAO

And without that political boner, which has a direct impact on ufology via the right wing conspiracy theorist world, this thread would be perhaps 1 page long. If people had comments to make about David, no one was stopping them.

 

[Walter Bosley]

And without that political boner, which has a direct impact on ufology via the right wing conspiracy theorist world, this thread would be perhaps 1 page long. If people had comments to make about David, no one was stopping them.

A lot of people just get weary of hijacked threads so they've simply stopped bothering. Not the end of the world. Just a fact. But, hey, you keep being a hero and save ufology from right wing politics with left wing politics.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

A lot of people just get weary of hijacked threads so they've simply stopped bothering. Not the end of the world. Just a fact. But, hey, you keep being a hero and save ufology from right wing politics with left wing politics.

Only in the USA today would wanting equality for all citizens under the Constitution be labeled LEFTIST. Really sad.

 

[Linton]

And then the angel, having forgotten about the scroll he had stuffed in his pocket, issued it forth. The eighth seal was then broken, and lo, great men of straw did fall upon the good and the wicked.