Sherif’s nephew claims Travis Walton Hoax well known?

[ArchieBedford]

I'm really sorry, but there are NO/NONE/ZERO alien abductees that can show that they were actually abducted by aliens. Many of them are probably not lying about their experiences, but they were probably experiencing a high level of brain activity, like what is being done with the so called god helmet (God helmet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

How then do near-identical scoop scars on the soft tissue originate? These are very prominent, up to 10mm in diameter and quite deep. Looking at them, they should bleed and bleed because they are so deep. But there is no evidence, or memory, of bleeding nor of how they happened. When fresh they are red and prominent, and the scars are so deep they last for life.

I've seen several close-up on real people, and photos of about 80 different ones. All these people report abduction-type experiences. If all these people are "experiencing a high level of brain activity" then please explain, biologically, how these scoop marks occur. I would be interested, as my medical colleagues, including dermatologists, cannot explain them even physically when the patient has no memory of having been bitten or biopsied so deeply.

I am genuinely interested if "brain activity" can explain these phenomena, and would like an explanation of exactly how the brain can do this. It would be something new to medical science.

---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 AM ----------

And furthermore, do you maintain that all multiply-witnessed abduction events, like the Walton case, are somehow collective delusions or some kind of hoax? The evidence is against you, my friend. You're the one here with extraordinary claims which go against the evidence, and you need to make it stick.

How familiar are you with the Walton case? Have you for example, read Travis's book, met and interviewed him or met any of the other witnesses? If so, let's hear your explanation of what happened. Travis for one would be interested to know.

 

[Ron Collins]

How familiar are you with the Walton case? Have you for example, read Travis's book, met and interviewed him or met any of the other witnesses? If so, let's hear your explanation of what happened. Travis for one would be interested to know.

Hi Archie, I happen to believe the Walton story. I have read his book, watched an unknown number of videos, read every word on his site, and listened to him whenever he appeared on the radio or podcast. But, I have never met or interviewed him. That last bit doesn't disqualify my opinion of the story and nor should it invalidate Angelo's. I have not read him to be saying that Walton is a liar.

I think sleep paralysis is a good candidate for some episodes of the abduction phenomenon. Certainly not applicable in multi-experiencer scenarios. I am in the process of learning more about the Allagash abductions and I have to say it is a very intriguing case that I somehow avoided learning too much about. Probably because the experiencers have not been talking about it now for several years.

I too am curious to hear what the ardent skeptical opinion of these type of cases is. The allegation of them lying has never been proven to my satisfaction and coupled with the fact that not one of the 7 guys has ever changed or altered their story is a huge bolster to their credibility.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

How then do near-identical scoop scars on the soft tissue originate? These are very prominent, up to 10mm in diameter and quite deep. Looking at them, they should bleed and bleed because they are so deep. But there is no evidence, or memory, of bleeding nor of how they happened. When fresh they are red and prominent, and the scars are so deep they last for life.

I've seen several close-up on real people, and photos of about 80 different ones. All these people report abduction-type experiences. If all these people are "experiencing a high level of brain activity" then please explain, biologically, how these scoop marks occur. I would be interested, as my medical colleagues, including dermatologists, cannot explain them even physically when the patient has no memory of having been bitten or biopsied so deeply.

I am genuinely interested if "brain activity" can explain these phenomena, and would like an explanation of exactly how the brain can do this. It would be something new to medical science.

---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 AM ----------

And furthermore, do you maintain that all multiply-witnessed abduction events, like the Walton case, are somehow collective delusions or some kind of hoax? The evidence is against you, my friend. You're the one here with extraordinary claims which go against the evidence, and you need to make it stick.

How familiar are you with the Walton case? Have you for example, read Travis's book, met and interviewed him or met any of the other witnesses? If so, let's hear your explanation of what happened. Travis for one would be interested to know.

I think that Walton is along the same lines as the other famous abductees. They saw something interesting and embellished it.
As usual, I like Brian Dunning's take on the story:

Fire in the Sky: A Real UFO Abduction?

With regards to evidence, your asking me to provide proof to show that the evidence for alien abductions is not real? I'm not sure what you want actually. There's no need for me to provide proof. Interesting scars to not prove to me that aliens are kidnapping these people.

Ron, here's a link to Brian Dunning's analysis of several UFO cases:

Skeptoid Episode Guide - Aliens & UFOs

I pretty much agree with everything he has to say. Have I mentioned that he's awesome? He is.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

I think that Walton is along the same lines as the other famous abductees. They saw something interesting and embellished it.
As usual, I like Brian Dunning's take on the story:

Fire in the Sky: A Real UFO Abduction?

With regards to evidence, your asking me to provide proof to show that the evidence for alien abductions is not real? I'm not sure what you want actually. There's no need for me to provide proof. Interesting scars to not prove to me that aliens are kidnapping these people.

Ron, here's a link to Brian Dunning's analysis of several UFO cases:

Skeptoid Episode Guide - Aliens & UFOs

I pretty much agree with everything he has to say. Have I mentioned that he's awesome? He is.

Ha ha, the ol', "I ain't gonna' give it any thought until it's proven, in which case I won't need to think about it anyway." Gotta' love scoffers, they always want the answer before they'll even consider the question.

But anyway, if you ever have the misfortune to be close enough to a saucer to be able to bounce a rock off of it if you wanted to perhaps you'll get to experience firsthand the frustration guys like Walton and his coworkers must feel when know-it-alls who were nowhere around at the time flippantly say, "Meh, he's mistaken."

 

[trainedobserver]

I'm really sorry, but there are NO/NONE/ZERO alien abductees that can show that they were actually abducted by aliens. Many of them are probably not lying about their experiences, but they were probably experiencing a high level of brain activity, like what is being done with the so called god helmet (God helmet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

Well you know, we don't know what it is. It could be any number of things including what it seems to be. Personally, if I were having these types of experiences I would go have myself checked out completely by a neurologist. You have to know the condition and calibration of the equipment before you can make any judgments about the validity of any readings it is giving you. Only after I had satisfied myself that my central nervous system was in good working order would I venture out in other areas of inquiry and I would never allow myself to be hypnotized by an alien abduction researcher of some kind.

There is no doubt something going on with this business. The question is, "What is it really?"

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Ha ha, the ol', "I ain't gonna' give it any thought until it's proven, in which case I won't need to think about it anyway." Gotta' love scoffers, they always want the answer before they'll even consider the question.

But anyway, if you ever have the misfortune to be close enough to a saucer to be able to bounce a rock off of it if you wanted to perhaps you'll get to experience firsthand the frustration guys like Walton and his coworkers must feel when know-it-alls who were nowhere around at the time flippantly say, "Meh, he's mistaken."

I've given it thought. I don't think he was abducted by aliens. Let me turn it around and ask why you won't consider alternatives. Is it really "case closed, aliens did it" in your mind? I'm not scoffing, I'm saying that there's no definitive proof saying that it was aliens that did it. Why is that so hard to understand?

You can question my judgment all you want: THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE PROOF THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY BEING ABDUCTED BY MUDDERFRAKKEN ALIENS.

Also, I'm pretty confident that I don't need to worry about being abducted by aliens. Apparently you can only see stuff like that if your mind is open to it. People like me will never be able to see "them" since I'll just explain it away using a crazy rational explanation.

 

[justcurious]

I think that Walton is along the same lines as the other famous abductees. They saw something interesting and embellished it.

As usual, I like Brian Dunning's take on the story.

I pretty much agree with everything he has to say. Have I mentioned that he's awesome? He is.

Here's the awesome conclusion of the awesome article :

Fire in the Sky: A Real UFO Abduction? Brian Dunning
To summarize, there is, and never has been, any proof that anything ever happened. The far more plausible explanation, that of a youthful moneymaking or attention-getting scheme by a couple of UFO enthusiasts, has worked out well. To critically analyze a far-out, incredible story like an extraterrestrial abduction, the first request we make is to show us any evidence. And, at this first hurdle, the Travis Walton story has failed completely.

In other words : Travis didn't drag back an alien in a sack so he's a liar. Absence of proof IS proof of absence... simple. Never mind the fact that the first degree ETH is only one of the various hypothesis that are envisaged by researchers. Skepticism looks like the perfect excuse to not do some actual thinking. Obviously, when you set yourself the goal to explain away every single anomalous phenomenon on the planet in a single website, you got to be swift, there's so many, one or two pages each and move on. Never mind the serious researchers with all kinds of credentials who spend up to 30 years on a case, they're all either liars looking for money or fame, or mentally impaired. Just ask Brian (awesome) Dunning.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

I've given it thought. I don't think he was abducted by aliens. Let me turn it around and ask why you won't consider alternatives. Is it really "case closed, aliens did it" in your mind? I'm not scoffing, I'm saying that there's no definitive proof saying that it was aliens that did it. Why is that so hard to understand?

You can question my judgment all you want: THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE PROOF THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY BEING ABDUCTED BY MUDDERFRAKKEN ALIENS.

Also, I'm pretty confident that I don't need to worry about being abducted by aliens. Apparently you can only see stuff like that if your mind is open to it. People like me will never be able to see "them" since I'll just explain it away using a crazy rational explanation.

I don't know if he was or not. The difference is I am open to the possibility that he was and I don't need the scientific community to give me permission to suspect that he was. I'll do my own thinking, thank you very much. What science knows is a grain of sand, what it doesn't is all the beaches in the Milky Way. And I don't even see how science can answer this specific question anyway. How will it ever be possible to scientifically prove that Travis Walton was abducted by aliens even if he was? Sure, science may someday be able to prove that there are aliens but I fail to see how it will ever resolve this. This is more like an allegation of a crime than a scientific question. Whether or not he was spacenapped is more a judgment call, something a jury might be more fit to decide, not something you can get a definitive answer for by putting under an electron microscope or working out equations.

 

[justcurious]

BTW where is the definite proof that Brian Awesome Dunning is not an undercover alien disinformation agent ? And no, I will not be satisfied with a DNA analysis. Type III civilisations may be giving "MY FIRST DNA ASSEMBLY SET* " to their kids.

*contains REAL human DNA scooped up from REAL human abductees. Do not swallow.


OK seriously, skeptic or else, if we are really honest with ourselves we see that we know really nothing. We're left to evaluate probabilities.

"The nature of reality is essentially probabilistic" Max Born, 84 years ago, upon solving the Schrödinger equation

 

[dyingsun]

While that is possible for single witness events when someone tries proposing that explanation for a multiple witness event I can't help but roll my eyes. Proposing that a group of people would all hallucinate exactly the same thing at exactly the same time is equally as extraordinary as alien abduction.

---------- Post added at 11:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

This Paratopia interview of Walton has been quite good. In the latter half of it they ask him if he has had any other experiences and Walton evades the question. So they say they'll just assume that he has and he never really denies it. So it looks possible that this was not an isolated incident for Walton.

Eh, sorry, but if anyone asks me if i like fish (Troy McLure ) and I don't wan't to answer that or address it, I love fish ? What's there to deny from Walton's point of view, except anything he didn't deny ?

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Eh, sorry, but if anyone asks me if i like fish (Troy McLure ) and I don't wan't to answer that or address it, I love fish ? What's there to deny from Walton's point of view, except anything he didn't deny ?

Lol, it's not quite like that. Did you listen to it? The whole thing goes down in such a way that it seems like Walton is hinting at it but just doesn't want to actually say it.

 

[Xylo]

This argument reminds me of a joke I heard...

A golfer was playing a round and God came down and spoke to him. He asked God to prove that it's him... So God said "your next tee off from a par 5 will be a hole in one." The guy, golfing solo, shrugged and continued playing. Sure enough he hits a hole-in-one off the tee shot on his next par 5.

In retrospect the golfer ponders over the events and asks himself which was worse: doubting God or hitting a hole in one with no witnesses.

 

[Ron Collins]

This argument reminds me of a joke I heard...

A golfer was playing a round and God came down and spoke to him. He asked God to prove that it's him... So God said "your next tee off from a par 5 will be a hole in one." The guy, golfing solo, shrugged and continued playing. Sure enough he hits a hole-in-one off the tee shot on his next par 5.

In retrospect the golfer ponders over the events and asks himself which was worse: doubting God or hitting a hole in one with no witnesses.

Without question it is the latter.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Wow. That blogger have a period (.) phobia?

 

[Ron Collins]

Wow. That blogger have a period (.) phobia?

Nah, he is channeling ee cummings.

 

[SoCalGNX]

I saw Travis Walton at an event. By all accounts, I would say he is a genuine and sincere person. I think he is telling the truth about what he experienced.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I contacted Travis about this. He says the guy is a total fraud. I'll post his response if I get an ok to do so.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

First reply.

"Aaron, Thanks for the heads up. I have had several people tell me about it. There is no end to the number of people who try to seem important by pretending to have some close connection to someone near the center of this. This guy is a total fraud. Facts proving this are of public record. His "uncle" Sank Flake was never the county sheriff, only the town marshal who was forced out of office when the state investigated him. The Navajo County Sheriff during the incident was Marlin Gillespie. The crew met Gillespie and his men Nov 5 1975 at a gas station closed for the night, not a diner. There has never been a Red Robin diner in Heber. The first Red Robin opened in 1993 in Pennsylvania. There is a Red Onion in nearby Overgaard, but that too wasn't opened until many years later. Every man on the crew lived in Snowflake. Allen Dalis lived in a trailer park behind the El Rancho on Main in Snowflake and never lived in Concho. Concho is 30 miles east of Snowflake. The Turkey Springs contract is 45 miles west of town. It would not be practical for anyone on that crew to travel 150 miles per day to work. During the incident I did not drink or take drugs of any kind. I had blood and urine samples put through the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Drug Screen which showed no trace of any drug on my body. I passed polygraph test questions which specifically addressed this drug theory. The crew boss did not go back alone, all of the crew went back that night. Allen Dalis DID participate in the search. In 1993 he flawlessly passed a polygraph which specifically addressed his having any knowledge of my whereabouts. I most certainly have done many interviews locally and many of those people did go around interviewing townspeople. No one ever told the story this guy tells. None of the debunkers, who have gone to great lengths, even to lying about the case, have ever told this crazy tale. I posted a challenge to this guy that I could take his posting to Sank Flake himself, who was a skeptic about the incident, and he would verify that this tale was totally false. Many of the elements of the poster's tale came from the movie, not what really happened. This desire to seem important even affects my supporters. One pro-Travis person claimed to have attended the homecoming party after my return. The problem is, that party never happened, that was a Hollywood story device. "


Second reply.

"Aaron, Please do. If they will let you. I have tried posting rebuttals on these attack sites and they delete them. Which proves they are not interested in the truth, only in their anti-ufo propaganda, even when they know it is false. However, I probably should write a more thorough list of points of fact that show statements he made are easily proven false. The quick rundown of points I sent to you is far from a complete rebuttal. For instance, he said my book "doesn't say in there are the questions that were asked to him and his co-workers" (sic), when in fact the book contains a complete transcript of the questions of all six polygraph tests that I passed from 3 different examiners, as well as the questions asked of the others. Contrary to his claims that I did not mention Dalis's trouble with the law, I most certainly did, although the posting person is completely wrong about the specifics. After the first round of tests the president of the American Polygraph Association stated that the odds were over a million to one that there could be an erroneous examiner conclusion. Experts pointed out that consistent eyewitness testimony from six people would have been sufficient to convict a person of murder with a death penalty sentence. But now the total number of passed tests of those involved now totals 17. Or 18 passed tests if you count Allen's first test that was publicly announced as "inconclusive", when one officer's report in the copy of the sheriff's file we obtained stated that the examiner said Allen "had basicly told the truth." Neither I nor my sister EVER had any ride in any law enforcement vehicle in connection with their investigation. As far as I know the only ride Mike ever had was when he went back to the site that night with the sheriff and 2 crewmen. As evidenced by the physician's report of his exam of me after my return there were absolutely NO "dirty needle marks" on my stomache or eye. Extensive medical testing was performed, but contrary to his claims, I did not spend even one night in the hospital, that was fiction added to the movie. The Forest Service contract theory was totally disproved in my book with actual contract data and even a signed affidavit from the Forest Service Contracting Officer refuting the theory. Debunkers spoke extensively with the Forest Service and all the lawmen, and these skeptics used some of the thinnest and most absurd theories, including that it was really the planet Jupiter. Yet NEVER have ANY of them ever alleged that there were Air Force helicopter manuevers in the area. Understand that my book first came out 14 years ago with a detailed, documented expose of the fraudulent campaign by the debunkers, and not one of them has responded to deny any of it."

 

[Ron Collins]

"Aaron, Please do. If they will let you. ...

I hope you told him that we would welcome his presence here in the forum. I think it would be amazing to hear his rebuttal to the myriad of accusations and alternate theories.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I hope you told him that we would welcome his presence here in the forum. I think it would be amazing to hear his rebuttal to the myriad of accusations and alternate theories.

I gave him a link to this thread. I mentioned it doesn't appear anyone is buying into the guy's claims.

You ever listen to Ufo Undercover? There's some good interviews there with him. They deal with the milab theory. Also, paratopia just did an interview with him. I'm guessing it is ok to mention other shows still. If not, sorry, I did read the rules and don't recall seeing that listed.