Skeptic, Michael Shermer.., Not As?

[Burnt State]

And for me that bar is still in flux, seemingly going higher and higher the more I investigate paranormal phenomena and think perhaps there is only normal phenomena that we give different labels to. Of course I jest about O'Brien's dual service company. At the moment my head lit off about the impossibility of it all. It's still a little weird but reading & listening more here and elsewhere makes me think twice about such things now. Doubt increases as belief wanes.

 

[Wade]

It's still a little weird but reading & listening more here and elsewhere makes me think twice about such things now. Doubt increases as belief wanes.

Is be interesting in knowing what reading sources..Besides here... you have come across that brings you to any conclusions you have. For my part, I heard about a possible connection between that which we would consider synchromistic acts and the level of dopamine in your system. On a whim I googled...and mind this is as far as I went, I didn't actively go to any sites...dopamine + lucid dreaming (which I pretty intimate with and dopamine + time perception (i am one of those people who swear that time is speeding up) apparently there are indications all three things are related to a goodly production of dopamine. Too much dopamine and you could lead to schizophrenia, too little and you could be subject to Alzenheimers. Being that this affliction runs in my mother's family I would be OK if I found out that my perception of synchronicity is merely an aspect of my brain having a good supply of the neurotransmitter.

 

[Constance]

Too much dopamine and you could lead to schizophrenia, too little and you could be subject to Alzenheimers. .

Do you remember where you read that? I read in a neuroscience paper today that dopamine's primary effect is alertness rather than a particular pleasureable sensation. Makes sense in terms of what you've posted [too little and one could be subject to Alzheimer's; also the other side: too much and the result is attentional overload]. I'll try to backtrack to the link to the paper I referred to.

Steve had written:

I've read something like a billion bits of info in the environment that we could pick up at any given time ... and we consciously process I think four bits at a time.

Obviously a staggering gap. How do we then remain functionally oriented to the environment and our own situation in it moment by moment? It has to be accounted for, imo, by the 'subconscious mind', an aspect of the consciousness complex that is finally being recognized and taken up in neuroscience. The subconscious clearly absorbs and maintains immense amounts of information from the environment and from our experience in the world -- affectivity, feeling, sense of significance, sense of interconnection -- in and with our environment. The question is becoming to what extent the subconscious mind processes and collates (correlates) what it receives and remembers . . . re-members, reconnects, puts back together . . . and how that integration is manifested at times to conscious awareness. Of course it's in 'para-normal experiences' such as telepathy, precognition, strokes of genius and insight, mediumship, etc., that we see the subconscious in action. And of course these experiences are so abnormal and anomalous that science has thus far refused to study them. That will probably change.

 

[Constance]

And for me that bar is still in flux, seemingly going higher and higher the more I investigate paranormal phenomena and think perhaps there is only normal phenomena that we give different labels to.

Paranormal phenomena have been suppressed, our attention to them discouraged, by the official culture of physicalist science and the political requirements of government. How we think about such phenomena is thus highly influenced toward doubt in our time. I think we have to pursue such phenomena against the grain of the dominant paradigm. We can't do better than following Steve's links in this regard.

 

[smcder]

Do you remember where you read that? I read in a neuroscience paper today that dopamine's primary effect is alertness rather than a particular pleasureable sensation. Makes sense in terms of what you've posted [too little and one could be subject to Alzheimer's; also the other side: too much and the result is attentional overload]. I'll try to backtrack to the link to the paper I referred to.

Steve had written:



Obviously a staggering gap. How do we then remain functionally oriented to the environment and our own situation in it moment by moment? It has to be accounted for, imo, by the 'subconscious mind', an aspect of the consciousness complex that is finally being recognized and taken up in neuroscience. The subconscious clearly absorbs and maintains immense amounts of information from the environment and from our experience in the world -- affectivity, feeling, sense of significance, sense of interconnection -- in and with our environment. The question is becoming to what extent the subconscious mind processes and collates (correlates) what it receives and remembers . . . re-members, reconnects, puts back together . . . and how that integration is manifested at times to conscious awareness. Of course it's in 'para-normal experiences' such as telepathy, precognition, strokes of genius and insight, mediumship, etc., that we see the subconscious in action. And of course these experiences are so abnormal and anomalous that science has thus far refused to study them. That will probably change.

The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

" Therefore, people's maximum performance on one-dimensional absolute judgement can be characterized as an information channel capacity with approximately 2 to 3 bits of information, which corresponds to the ability to distinguish between four and eight alternatives."

information theory (mathematics) :: Physiology -- Encyclopedia Britannica


"The table Information transmission rates of the senses shows how much information is processed by each of the five senses. This table immediately directs attention to the problem of determining what is happening to all this data. In other words, the human body sends 11 million bits per second to the brain for processing, yet the conscious mind seems to be able to process only 50 bits per second"

 

[smcder]

Also Brittanica:

It is often assumed that consciousness is the dominant feature of the brain. The brief observations above suggest a rather different picture. It now appears that the vast majority of processing is accomplished outside conscious notice and that most of the body’s activities take place outside direct conscious control. This suggests that practice and habit are important because they train circuits in the brain to carry out some actions “automatically,” without conscious interference. Even such a “simple” activity as walking is best done without interference from consciousness, which does not have enough information processing capability to keep up with the demands of this task.

 

[Burnt State]

Is be interesting in knowing what reading sources..Besides here... you have come across that brings you to any conclusions you have. For my part, I heard about a possible connection between that which we would consider synchromistic acts and the level of dopamine in your system. On a whim I googled...and mind this is as far as I went, I didn't actively go to any sites...dopamine + lucid dreaming (which I pretty intimate with and dopamine + time perception (i am one of those people who swear that time is speeding up) apparently there are indications all three things are related to a goodly production of dopamine. Too much dopamine and you could lead to schizophrenia, too little and you could be subject to Alzenheimers. Being that this affliction runs in my mother's family I would be OK if I found out that my perception of synchronicity is merely an aspect of my brain having a good supply of the neurotransmitter.

The more you dig into the paranormal & UFO studies in general the more you run into believers, interesting stories, original theorists who are trying to make sense of it all and then there's the skeptical voice. After taking in this spectrum with my own critical eye I notice that I have a hard time not critiquing believers because there's more supposition than evidence. Good stories leave me baffled and some are even worthy of pursuit. Strong theory and contemporary science, along with healthy skepticism, not the rabid kind, offer more concrete answers than anyone else.

So I return to thinking about how much we have invented collectively by giving special names to perhaps very common occurrences that don't get much attention, or by giving special attention to uncommon occurrences that we have no clue about their actual origins. Out of this mix comes folklore, pseudo-science, traditional tales, new mythologies, religions, cults and the invention of paranormal phenomenon.

But take your dopamine piece: I recently discovered that in moments of high trauma our survivalist skills kick in and alter our brain chemistry so that our perception of time radically slows down to allow us to complete a numer of split second decisions & bits of reasoning in order to save our asses. That totally explained how during my one car accident my 1.5 seconds before the crash exploded into a good 15 seconds or more of internal narrative experience, and processing of the net effect of the impending accident just before our speeding car slammed into the stationary van. In this same study it was noted that one person having a brain aneurysm in the shower actually saw water droplets freeze almost in time and they could see air currents moving the frozen beads of water. So time can alter according to our brain chemistry, just as in the same way our perceptions of sudden nefarious and menacing beings in our room result frequently from sleep paralysis. Before we even knew what sleep paralysis was we created the old hag syndrome, succubi coming to our bedrooms to steal our souls and now it's alien abduction.

So I agree with Constance, we should investigate these rare stories and see what we can glean from them as a lot of our altered experiences of reality may have a lot to do with experiences of our physiology under great duress. There's something to be learned there for certain - it just may not be fantastic, but just a function of a unique biological makeup.

As for UFO's, we'll never figure anything out there as that's just beyond our capacity, and cases that appar to be measurable are probably the wrong cases to look at. But some stories really demand solid investigation and are worth repeating:

 

[Burnt State]

This Esalen video isn't the one I want. There's a rough cut by Kripal of a movie that features an absolutely brilliant synchronicity where the home invasion being detailed by a graphic artist unfolds exactly as he drew it right in his very own home immediately after he finishes the drawing - talk about messing with time, but that video has disappeared on me. Maybe someone else can find it under its title, Authors of the Impossible, or at least that's how i remember its title.

 

[Wade]

Do you remember where you read that? I read in a neuroscience paper today that dopamine's primary effect is alertness rather than a particular pleasureable sensation. Makes sense in terms of what you've posted [too little and one could be subject to Alzheimer's; also the other side: too much and the result is attentional overload]. I'll try to backtrack to the link to the paper I referred to.

Dopamine in schizophrenia: a review and... - PubMed Mobile - NCBI

I apologize i may have interpreted this incorrectly, this study indicates that abnormal dopamine activity...not necessarily excessive amounts ...is connected to schizophrenia

also I read a similar study here : Schizophrenia is associated with elevated amphetamine-induced synaptic dopamine concentrations: Evidence from a novel positron emission .

This indicated that a production of dopamine brought on by aphetemine use could be a casual agent which I guess could be a different ballgame, but I would wonder if any stimulation of extra dopamine could induce this condition regardless of the agent.

 

[Burnt State]

I found the Authors of the Impossible video. If you enjoy Kripal's work or just like hearing really strange stories then this has what you need :

 

[Wade]

It occured to me, and I probably have this wrong, is that such states as the feelings of synchronicity as well as a sensitivity to the perception of time and lucid dreaming while technically not paranormal in substance do have a connection to altered state of awareness if there is a connection between these states and dopamine I find it interesting that an elevated abnormal dopamine enviornment could produce schizophrenia which has been used to explain why some people have a paranormal type experience.

 

[Wade]

At the risk of derailing this thread here are a couple of links to a very interesting story from a few years back I had bookmarked regarding david eagleman's work at baylor university and our perception of time especially while under duress
The Possibilian - The New Yorker

BRAIN TIME | Edge.org

 

[smcder]

And for me that bar is still in flux, seemingly going higher and higher the more I investigate paranormal phenomena and think perhaps there is only normal phenomena that we give different labels to. Of course I jest about O'Brien's dual service company. At the moment my head lit off about the impossibility of it all. It's still a little weird but reading & listening more here and elsewhere makes me think twice about such things now. Doubt increases as belief wanes.

Darn you, you've taken the standard from purple prose to downright maudlin ... you'll have to excuse me ... a little lachrymose am I.

Although it does occur to me the vice above is versa ... or the verse above is - oh never mind, believing is seeing still works for me.

 

[Burnt State]

Making belief out of experience, when we guess about the true nature of experience, is where I see the problem begin about dividing experiences into categories like normal or paranormal.

 

[smcder]

Making belief out of experience, when we guess about the true nature of experience, is where I see the problem begin about dividing experiences into categories like normal or paranormal.

*sigh* you may take me too literally here, I'm not sure ...

The middle of the road isn't always the best place to make guesses or divide experiences into categories ... I've personally found it is a good place to get run over.

And, to stretch the hell out of an innocent metaphor, most people don't stand right in the middle of the road ... you know which way they're going to jump when the traffic comes.

Another metaphor is those signs on the road that you can't read unless you are driving at a certain speed and then the resolve from distortion into clear text ... what's nice about that is you have an illusion that serves the truth.

 

[Burnt State]

I think we are speaking across porpoises.

 

[smcder]

I think we are speaking across porpoises.

I've never come across a cross porpoise ... a selfish shellfish and a cuddly cuttlefish, a snarky shark and a wily, willful, wailing whale and once even a dolphin who would be Dauphin ... but no, I never came across a cross porpoise.

Not intentionally.

 

[boomerang]

What we seem to be dancing around is what constitutes coherent information vs what is random noise. From that question arises (I think) whether information is inherently and qualitatively different from noise without the participation of an observer to crunch patterns into meaning.

To belabor the yellow helicopter example--for anyone passing this sight on the road but someone familiar with the yellow copter and cattle mutilation scenario, no particular meaning could be possible. Is the same thing true of more sophisticated means of encoding transfer of information between conscious minds? Obvious examples would be written language or binary code.

It seems to me that for transfer of information between two parties to occur there must be some kind of third or more referent, normally accepted by human consensus as something within the boundaries of the "normal", to which it corresponds. And in fact, we live immersed in a sea of such transfer, our brains probably engaged at least as much in the act of filtering what is not meaningful to the individual as in processing what is meaningful.

Much of what we refer to as paranormal is information vividly perceived by and meaningful to the experiencer, but not accepted by society as within the bounds of the possible or "normal."

 

[boomerang]

Re-reading my previous post, I can almost hear an old philosophy prof pointedly asking "What are you trying to say?" This tends to happen when an idea is either poorly expressed, or just plain half-baked.

Maybe this one can be saved. In lieu of the stipulation that information conveyed fall into the realm of "normal", it might better be described as an informational paradigm rooted in experience governed by accepted laws of cause and effect. And of course, conveyed by rules previously established between sender and receiver or perhaps imbued by biological instinct.

Sheesh. Now it reads as if written by Noah Webster's slower brother. At any rate: Is this better or worse ?

 

[smcder]

Re-reading my previous post, I can almost hear an old philosophy prof pointedly asking "What are you trying to say?" This tends to happen when an idea is either poorly expressed, or just plain half-baked.

Maybe this one can be saved. In lieu of the stipulation that information conveyed fall into the realm of "normal", it might better be described as an informational paradigm rooted in experience governed by accepted laws of cause and effect. And of course, conveyed by rules previously established between sender and receiver or perhaps imbued by biological instinct.

Sheesh. Now it reads as if written by Noah Webster's slower brother. At any rate: Is this better or worse ?

Yes.

Better or worse ... depending on the observer.