Some Assumptions have been bothering me

[Ezechiel]

The US does appear to have the cooperation of foreign governments like Brazil.

Safe to say that members of the G-20 are probably part of the pact.

Bulgaria wants to be part of the euro zone in 2013 ... notice how fast it processed the Lachezar Filipov affair.
Space research institute no longer exists and Filipov is not reachable

Filipov is also reported to have expressed his belief that these extraterrestrials will make open contact with the human race within the next 10 to 15 years, and that the aliens are critical of humanity’s amoral behavior and of their "interference in nature’s processes".

Oh wait a minute.... where's is the straight jacket !!!
Take a look at this .... looks like Lachezar has a few issues !!

http://www.ourplanet.cc/category/answers2/

 

[Trajanus]

Safe to say that members of the G-20 are probably part of the pact.

Russia seems to have been for the past 10-20 years at least.

 

[Kieran]

I'm sure Randle and others have argued otherwise.




Right and Brazel would've cleaned up the mess completely and without delay or asked the military to do it, long before July, since the wreckage hindered ranch operations. For this reason, I don't believe it fell there as early as June 24 or earlier. And that in turn means that the possible MOGUL launch on June 4 couldn't have ben responsible.

I don't want to get into a tiresome debate about Roswell, we have discussed it enough here and on other threads. So this be my last post to this thread. What ever Randle and other researchers opinions are, this date was the original date for the reporting of the wreckage. Of Course, it would have hindered ranch Operations, if the wreckage was widespread across a large patch of land that was been used for that purpose, however it doesn't really matter if the wreckage was found in June or July. I'm of the believe a substantial amount of time would have to past before the Roswell Base would announce a find like this to the public. I really doubt they would announce this find the day after finding this wreckage, without being sure they had retrieved every piece of metal that could be out there or that somebody could have found and kept.

 

[Ezechiel]

With no physical proof they can still claim that: 'They pose no threat to national security'

They could claim the same thing with it; as long as there's no actual invasion.

I meant the general population knew for sure there existed a piece of physical evidence. This is crucial and game changing and they know that.

Remember the 'planet of the apes' series ? 2000 year old human dolls found while digging were quickly burned by archeologists for the same reason. Aware of the fundamental impact on their culture and social order, these items had to be destroyed or hidden

We are the monkeys here LOL

 

[Trajanus]

What ever Randle and other researchers opinions are, this date was the original date for the reporting of the wreckage.

Sure, after Brazel had been "coached" by the military.

I'm of the believe a substantial amount of time would have to past before the Roswell Base would announce a find like this to the public. I really doubt they would announce this find the day after finding this wreckage, without being sure they had retrieved every piece of metal that could be out there or that somebody could have found and kept.

But they established a cordon by then to keeep civilians away from the critical sites to the west of the highway leading north.

 

[Flatwoods]

The quantity was way too much for that and the nature of the material was way too exotic for any prosaic explanation.



A UFO was seen prior to the crash, MPs did report bodies, and an unearthly craft--possibly an escape pod.

The quantity was not way too much, as the mogul "balloon" was actually a train of 25 balloons, radar reflectors, and microphones that stretched more than 600 ft. That would create an awful lot of debris. A field full of debris, one would think.

As for the nature of the material, nobody is entirely sure what materials the Air Force used in the project. Even the Air Force doesn't quite remember, because it was so long ago and much of the construction was improvised.

Did the MP's go on record with their testimony, or was it second-hand? The only first hand testimony I've read involves debris.

 

[Frank Stalter]

The quantity was not way too much, as the mogul "balloon" was actually a train of 25 balloons, radar reflectors, and microphones that stretched more than 600 ft. That would create an awful lot of debris. A field full of debris, one would think.

As for the nature of the material, nobody is entirely sure what materials the Air Force used in the project. Even the Air Force doesn't quite remember, because it was so long ago and much of the construction was improvised.

Did the MP's go on record with their testimony, or was it second-hand? The only first hand testimony I've read involves debris.

http://www.roswellproof.com/haut.html

Public information officer Walter Haut affidavit is certainly eye opening. Of course, it was signed on his deathbed, so no one can follow up with him on it. Now Haut did have a financial interest in the Roswell museum it's fair to note, but what does it say about him waiting until near death to make such a revelation? There was no financial gain in waiting so long.

 

[Experiencer7]

I know I have brought it up before but since it keeps coming up I wanted to address it yet again. On the Aztec show it was brought up that if UFO's are supposed alien craft and that such craft are highly advanced somehow that translates into nothing we low tech humans have could be capable of causing it serious problems.

I just can't subscribe to this and I am sort of shocked that anyone that has worked with any level of high technology would either. So in the off chance that anyone cares I have compiled a list of reasons that run counter to that premiss.

1 - Pilot Error, I am a pilot and I get many pilot oriented publications. Including a very bland looking one called Aviation Safety. Here and at the AOPA's version you can get some insight to the incidents and accidents and their causation. Very eye opening. Not just private pilots but professional and military pilots screw up. I think it is safe to assume "alien" ones could as well.

(Here are a few sites if you are interested. Aviation Safety Network > and Aviation Safety Magazine)

2 - Craft Malfunction or Failure. Again, read the above stuff and you can see that this, while more rare, is also a valid causation of an accident or incident.

3 - Unforeseen complications due to unfamiliar technology. For instance, microwaves affect pace makers, cell phones cause monitors to warble and speakers to buzz, the list can go on and on. the point is these technologies were all independently developed, tested, and deployed without that slightest consideration for the other. Yet they can affect the proper performance of the other device. Now, they all use the same basic principles of technology developed by humans. There technological pedigree is mutually descendant. I think it is safe to assume that if we introduce a technology that may make use of a significantly divergent base technological pedigree that we can not possibly be certain of its affects on one another. I think it is not at all counterintuitive to assume that such divergent technologies could adversely affecting one another.

4 - Vulnerability to Weapons. I come from simple train of thought here, if it can be made it can be broken. Why should we assume that because it is higher technology that it is impervious to our weaponry. We have Fighter jets that are about 100 million orders of magnitude more advanced that a sword carrying knight of France or England. But if the F22 Raptor was struck by the projectile of a trebuchet of that era I am sorry to say that 50 million dollar technological marvel and most likely its pilot are screwed.

I will add more to this later. If anyone has more to offer or would like to talk about one or more of these I would love to hear it.

Thanks,
Ron

Something else that no one seems to consider., is that "ALIEN" works both ways. You can be armed to the teeth with your own tech., spawned by a thousand years of whatever culture/world/dimension., and still be totally unprepared for the rigors of an alien world aka Earth. Why must we always judge other cultures by standardized criteria?, THIS IS WHAT WE ARE/ WE DO., so etc....

 

[Trajanus]

The quantity was not way too much, as the mogul "balloon" was actually a train of 25 balloons, radar reflectors, and microphones that stretched more than 600 ft. That would create an awful lot of debris. A field full of debris, one would think.

The only mogul launch might conceivably have come down on the ranch was the one which MIGHT have been launched on June 4rth. If it caused THAT much of a mess, Brazel would've notified the authorities a month earlier to clean it up. He didn't mention balloons in his description of the stuff to the Proctors but he did mention incomprehensible figures and writing.

As for the nature of the material, nobody is entirely sure what materials the Air Force used in the project.

It could hardly have been materials unrecognizable to a base intelligence officer, nor stuff which couldn't be burned or cut.

Did the MP's go on record with their testimony, or was it second-hand? The only first hand testimony I've read involves debris.

I think it was first hand. Or at least Holden was.

 

[diny]

I know I have brought it up before but since it keeps coming up I wanted to address it yet again. On the Aztec show it was brought up that if UFO's are supposed alien craft and that such craft are highly advanced somehow that translates into nothing we low tech humans have could be capable of causing it serious problems.

I just can't subscribe to this and I am sort of shocked that anyone that has worked with any level of high technology would either. So in the off chance that anyone cares I have compiled a list of reasons that run counter to that premiss.

1 - Pilot Error, I am a pilot and I get many pilot oriented publications. Including a very bland looking one called Aviation Safety. Here and at the AOPA's version you can get some insight to the incidents and accidents and their causation. Very eye opening. Not just private pilots but professional and military pilots screw up. I think it is safe to assume "alien" ones could as well.

(Here are a few sites if you are interested. Aviation Safety Network > and Aviation Safety Magazine)


2 - Craft Malfunction or Failure. Again, read the above stuff and you can see that this, while more rare, is also a valid causation of an accident or incident.

3 - Unforeseen complications due to unfamiliar technology. For instance, microwaves affect pace makers, cell phones cause monitors to warble and speakers to buzz, the list can go on and on. the point is these technologies were all independently developed, tested, and deployed without that slightest consideration for the other. Yet they can affect the proper performance of the other device. Now, they all use the same basic principles of technology developed by humans. There technological pedigree is mutually descendant. I think it is safe to assume that if we introduce a technology that may make use of a significantly divergent base technological pedigree that we can not possibly be certain of its affects on one another. I think it is not at all counterintuitive to assume that such divergent technologies could adversely affecting one another.

4 - Vulnerability to Weapons. I come from simple train of thought here, if it can be made it can be broken. Why should we assume that because it is higher technology that it is impervious to our weaponry. We have Fighter jets that are about 100 million orders of magnitude more advanced that a sword carrying knight of France or England. But if the F22 Raptor was struck by the projectile of a trebuchet of that era I am sorry to say that 50 million dollar technological marvel and most likely its pilot are screwed.

I will add more to this later. If anyone has more to offer or would like to talk about one or more of these I would love to hear it.

Thanks,
Ron

Hi Ron,
I would wonder one thing. Although our technology is very advanced, if we don't have planes that fly as fast as ufos or weapons which can be targeted in on ships proceeding as quickly as ufos purportedly do (in the nano or pico second range, I think), how could be shoot them down or even harm them in any way? I think this might be why we consider them more advanced.
Diana

 

[Trajanus]

I would wonder one thing. Although our technology is very advanced, if we don't have planes that fly as fast as ufos or weapons which can be targeted in on ships proceeding as quickly as ufos purportedly do (in the nano or pico second range, I think), how could be shoot them down or even harm them in any way?

Occasionally they hover or go slow enough to be hit.

I think this might be why we consider them more advanced.
Diana

They'd have to be more advanced to be here. But that doesn't make them invulnerable.

 

[Xylo]

Hi Ron,
I would wonder one thing. Although our technology is very advanced, if we don't have planes that fly as fast as ufos or weapons which can be targeted in on ships proceeding as quickly as ufos purportedly do (in the nano or pico second range, I think), how could be shoot them down or even harm them in any way? I think this might be why we consider them more advanced.
Diana

Funny thing is that there are Area of Effect (AoE) weapons and there are weapons which are designed for Point Targets.

Examples of AoE weapons: Shotgun pellets. The pellets fire from the gun and scatter in a fairly reliable pattern that expands as it travels further from the barrel. Another example would be flak from a WWII vintage anti aircraft gun. The shell explodes and the weapon operator hopes for a piece of shrapnel to hit his target(s.)

Point weapons: Rifle, laser, blowgun.

Why do I mention this? One doesn't necessarily have to be able to attack with precision in all cases. Think of the hunter who is shooting at a moving target, or when the wind gusts...they will "lead" the target or use "kentucky windage" to guesstimate where the target will be at the specific time that the projectile will arrive at that range. So if you have a reasonable idea which direction a craft is traveling and at what speed, one could plan for a projectile, shrapnel, or other weapon to arrive simultaneously. Success depends upon one's knowledge of the weapon used, the target's adherence to course, speed and altitude, and sometimes just sheer luck. (Much the same way that torpedoes were once launched in war.)

That being stated, I believe that our weapon technology is much more advanced than any but a few thousand people know. Think about it, the SR71 was late 1950's technology.

 

[Trajanus]

That being stated, I believe that our weapon technology is much more advanced than any but a few thousand people know.

There may also be recovered even backengineered stuff known to fewer still.

 

[Xylo]

There may also be recovered even backengineered stuff known to fewer still.

I'm pretty sure that most people are aware of Velcro and Tang.

 

[Trajanus]

I'm pretty sure that most people are aware of Velcro and Tang.

Yeah, but look at Cash-Landrum. You never know....

 

[Flatwoods]

The only mogul launch might conceivably have come down on the ranch was the one which MIGHT have been launched on June 4rth. If it caused THAT much of a mess, Brazel would've notified the authorities a month earlier to clean it up. He didn't mention balloons in his description of the stuff to the Proctors but he did mention incomprehensible figures and writing.

The testimony I've read states their was a considerable amount of debris. As for the incomprehensible figures, the U.S. Air Force says that the tape used for the balsa structural supports on the radar reflectors was imprinted with flower patterns and similar characters. That's always been the smoking gun for me.

It could hardly have been materials unrecognizable to a base intelligence officer, nor stuff which couldn't be burned or cut.

I've heard this argument before, and it makes me wonder this: why would a base intelligence officer at Roswell Army Airfield would be familiar with all the materials used in a reconnaissance project operated out of Alamogordo? Military intelligence is highly compartmentalized. Unless he worked on and had clearance for that specific project, I would think a number of the materials might be unfamiliar to him - the microphones, for one thing.

As for the exotic materials, there are many kinds of fabrics available that won't burn and are difficult to cut, some of which may have been new in 1947. During my backpacking days, I often carried an emergency survival "space blanket" made of some very odd material that was non-flammable, very tough, and would return to it's original shape after being folded up. Anyone can buy such a blanket at a local sporting goods store.

 

[Trajanus]

The testimony I've read states their was a considerable amount of debris. As for the incomprehensible figures, the U.S. Air Force says that the tape used for the balsa structural supports on the radar reflectors was imprinted with flower patterns and similar characters.

Brazel wouldn't recognize flowers? This whole subject has just been discussed at great length on KDR's blog. Skeptics mentioned this but David Rudiak blew their ducks out of the water.

I've heard this argument before, and it makes me wonder this: why would a base intelligence officer at Roswell Army Airfield would be familiar with all the materials used in a reconnaissance project operated out of Alamogordo? Military intelligence is highly compartmentalized. Unless he worked on and had clearance for that specific project, I would think a number of the materials might be unfamiliar to him - the microphones, for one thing.

Had mogul come down on the ranch, there should've been plenty of easily recognizable material, like balloons. Proctor didn't recall Brazel mentioning any balloons in his description of the debris. Had balloons or tape etc been there, I doubt Marcel would've had a problem recognizing them as mundane.

As for the exotic materials, there are many kinds of fabrics available that won't burn and are difficult to cut, some of which may have been new in 1947.

What specific mogul material fits this description? Balloons, tape, balsa wood? Besides, Mogul is hardly credible because the only launch which MIGHT conceivably have reached the Foster ranch was # 4 on June 4th. If it was launched at all, that is. It may well have been cancelled, while all the others are accounted for. Even if it was real, it couldn't have made the mess on the Foster ranch. Besides the exotic nature of the debris, it would've come down a month too early. Brazel would've notified the authorities sooner, if only to clean up a mess which interfered with ranch operations.

During my backpacking days, I often carried an emergency survival "space blanket" made of some very odd material that was non-flammable, very tough, and would return to it's original shape after being folded up. Anyone can buy such a blanket at a local sporting goods store.

Not in '47.