Some Thoughts on Disclosure

[Paspro]

Actually, although it's hard not to see C.V. as a cult leader, Raelism has gained legal status as a recognized religion. But then again what are religions if not just large cults?

Scientology is also a recognised religion although it is a scam. It seems that when a cult grows a lot in size it is renamed to "religion". Personally, I prefer to stick to Science and the scientific method as the only reliable procedure for finding the truth.


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[Randall]

Scientology is also a recognised religion although it is a scam. It seems that when a cult grows a lot in size it is renamed to "religion". Personally, I prefer to stick to Science and the scientific method as the only reliable procedure for finding the truth.

You might like the thread "A Science Minute" then. Maybe the poll is still open too.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

All belief systems have left and right movements and Science is good when all the players are free to explore with an open mind and not worried of the paymaster!

 

[Pegusta]

@Paspro
It could very well be that it is an abuction experience in both cases, or it could be something else entirely. I would think that the abduction experience essentially is not a physical one. The experiiencer may well be experiencing in a dreamlike state. This does not make it less real, but it would explain a lot. I think it is more likely that it is the abductee/experiencer that provide meaning through interpretations based on different cultural and religious references, and ones cultural context. In my opinion the ET interpretation is no different in this regard. An interpretation among others. I am not certain we see the real source of all this, just different cultural "projections".

 

[storge]

Following up on the idea that "the visitors" might not be ETs, or might be akin to fairy-folk, angels, demons, etc., I notice a curious connection:

1. Young children spontaneously play "doctor" until grown-ups break it up when it becomes lewd
2. The fairy/angel/demon/ET visitors play "doctor" with a bunch of fancy probes and have some sort of "wand of forgetfulness" to keep everyone happy

FWIW. There's probably a connection with poltergeists attached to pubescent youth. I'm not sure what Jim Moseley meant in his Shockingly Close book when he wrote, at the end, that the solution was contained in the book in an unexpected place, meaning the solution to the UFO mystery had to do with grave robbing in Peru. Maybe the "visitors" are really much less advanced/mature than we are, and are raiding our organs the way Moseley raided dead Incas? Or maybe he meant they're really ghosts.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Or maybe it was Moseley being Moseley.

 

[storge]

I think the "secret key to the UFO mystery" in the book was actually the lady who came into his store in Key West and asked that funny question about him making the Incan artifacts himself.

 

[Paspro]

Following up on the idea that "the visitors" might not be ETs, or might be akin to fairy-folk, angels, demons, etc., I notice a curious connection:

1. Young children spontaneously play "doctor" until grown-ups break it up when it becomes lewd
2. The fairy/angel/demon/ET visitors play "doctor" with a bunch of fancy probes and have some sort of "wand of forgetfulness" to keep everyone happy

I would interpret 1 and 2 in terms of human psychology rather than something supernatural/paranormal. In my opinion your argument supports the explanation that the abduction phenomenon is psychiatric in nature rather than some real event and this is certainly a possibility.

Personally, I don't subscribe to supernatural and paranormal theories. I consider them to be non-explanations and an indication that Science needs to work extra hard on these issues in order to properly explain the phenomena. In my opinion, there is no such thing as supernatural. They are all natural phenomena which may not be properly understood or explained by the current level of Science.


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[Randall]

@Paspro
It could very well be that it is an abuction experience in both cases, or it could be something else entirely. I would think that the abduction experience essentially is not a physical one. The experiiencer may well be experiencing in a dreamlike state. This does not make it less real, but it would explain a lot. I think it is more likely that it is the abductee/experiencer that provide meaning through interpretations based on different cultural and religious references, and ones cultural context. In my opinion the ET interpretation is no different in this regard. An interpretation among others. I am not certain we see the real source of all this, just different cultural "projections".

I think you make a very valid point, particularly for Premodern Era sightings. Although our senses might take in the stimulus as it appears, how we relate to it is dependent on our worldview at the time and our ability to intelligently extrapolate. If all we've got to compare the experience to are stories of Angels coming down from the sky, then it's likely that those who believe in that mythology are going to describe beings that come down from the sky as Angles. However at the same time, there is a clear difference between a dream state and a fully conscious experience, and the reasoning for the ETH during the Modern Era has little to do with subjective psychology or religion.

 

[Randall]

I would interpret 1 and 2 in terms of human psychology rather than something supernatural/paranormal. In my opinion your argument supports the explanation that the abduction phenomenon is psychiatric in nature rather than some real event and this is certainly a possibility.

Personally, I don't subscribe to supernatural and paranormal theories. I consider them to be non-explanations and an indication that Science needs to work extra hard on these issues in order to properly explain the phenomena. In my opinion, there is no such thing as supernatural. They are all natural phenomena which may not be properly understood or explained by the current level of Science.

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UFOs are not a supernatural or paranormal phenomenon. They are alien craft that have yet to be fully understood. As for the abduction phenomenon, it may be the case that alien abduction is taking place. However we don't have sufficient evidence to substantiate such claims. Nevertheless it is reasonable to suggest that something out of the ordinary is going on.

 

[Trajanus]

There is little doubt that that the aliens have the upper hand and are able to deal out disclosure on their terms.

Not absolutely certain, if there's any truth to the backengineering or shoot down reports.

However assuming the aliens are imposing non-disclosure on government is a step beyond where I'm comfortable.

Right, while both parties don't disclose, they do it for entirely different reasons. The aliens don't want their longterm scheme to be known or it would arouse too much resistance e.g. pressure on the government to do something or accelerate preparations. The government won't disclose because there's not enough it can do about the aliens, yet, so there's no point in informing/upsetting the public. When it finally perfects some weapon that can defeat ET, then it can disclose to get the needed appropriations for mass production.

It seems to me that if anything, the aliens act with a certain degree of impunity and for the most part couldn't care less what we say or do. I say a certain degree of impunity because they consistently demonstrate evasive and elusive behavior,

Sure the fact they don't want to be known suggests they might be foiled if they were.

and there are some curious instances where it seems they've instructed witnesses not to talk about them. This also suggests that they're not as friendly with our governments as some might suggest. After all, if governments were cooperating with them, why send interceptors after them?

Or why would they strike at our nuclear installations, or harrass jets of various kinds? The fact there are abductions, even killings and mutilations, at least some involving military men, douses a lot of cold water on contact and collaboration tales.

 

[Pegusta]

@Ufology
Well, one could say that the ETH fits perfectly well within our current understanding of reality. It makes sense for us to assume that the anomalies we experience in the form ufos are interstellar travelers. A very practical and sensible approach. and this interpretation is not an entirely new one either, with accounts from ancient times speaking of visitors from other stars (starpeople), most often in the guise of gods.

The ETH I would argue, is more than ever firmly based within our cultural context, as well as in our scientificly oriented worldview. However that does not nescessarily make it a more valid conclusion. We constantly get bombarded with this concept in popular culture, and it makes sense for us to assume that other species might exist in other parts of the universe, and that they share our passion for exploration to the point that they find ways to travel to other planets that might be inhabited. We also assume, again with our own species as our only point of reference, that these guys come here using some kind of cool highly advanced technology, taking samples of the terrestrial flora and fauna. Today it is the western scientific way of thinking that provides us with our frame of reference from which to explain and interpret anomolous encounters. A thousand years ago, or rather for the most of our past it was mainly a religios worldview that was used to make sense of things.


One example of how the the scientific thinking is applied by many is with regards to strange and seemingly unexplainable phenomena. Many people instinctively make a sloppy attempt at scientific reasoning, dismissing anomalies out of hand because it is not "scientific" to assume that paranormal phenomenon exist. And this conclusion is often a knee jerk reaction, not reviewing the evidence to begin with. People tend to assume that they use scientific reasoning, even though it in reality may only be self deception, not using proper scientific reasoning. Thus the perception of a scientific thought basis has become an integral part of our cultural context, and not necessarilly real scientific thinking. I hope you get the gist of my argument.

The abduction phenomenon has a lot of tricky aspects to it, not the least which is a dubious source material, thanks to faulty research methods like "memory retrieval" through hypnosis. This has muddied the water to a considerable degree. This has unfortunately led to prominent researchers jumping to conclusions. I think we may need to take a step back and get our source material in check and establish a more fitting research method before we can make make further progress.

Regarding disclosure, or really the paranormal field in general and the ufo phenomenon in particular; I do not think that there is much interest among the populace. I have met a lot of people that profess that they simply do not give a fig what is going on. This leads me to believe that disclosure initiated by the public may never come to pass. Assuming that the government really knows anything conclusive, which I do not think is the case anyway.

 

[Atticus11]

2. Some top secret group of the military/private/government sector cooperates with the ETs in order to ensure that the ET presence and activities remain secret. Regardless the passing of time and political changes in the government, the agenda and activities of this group remain unaffected.

One thing I've always been fascinated about by ufologists is their insistence that this supposedly far-reaching secret is being kept either by (a) an extra-constitutional organization [impossible], or, (b) executive branch agencies of the U.S. government [unlikely].

If I had a secret that absolutely had to be kept at all costs I would vest it in an agency whose political leadership serves for decades, instead of years, which has a blanket exemption from the FOIA and whose internal files can't be subpoenaed. By my count, there are only five US-G entities that meet those requirements and none of them are in the presidential chain-of-authority. The lack of attentiveness, by ufologists, to the implications of real politik as it applies to power dynamics within the US-G is part of what has led me to believe the conspiracy side of this topic is mostly the result of overactive imaginations activated by too much time spent watching action films about alphabet-soup spy agencies.

 

[Trajanus]

@Paspro
It could very well be that it is an abuction experience in both cases, or it could be something else entirely. I would think that the abduction experience essentially is not a physical one.

Of course it's physical, because of associated injuries and other traces.

I think it is more likely that it is the abductee/experiencer that provide meaning through interpretations based on different cultural and religious references, and ones cultural context. In my opinion the ET interpretation is no different in this regard. An interpretation among others. I am not certain we see the real source of all this, just different cultural "projections".

It's interesting that people everywhere report the same kind of experience and often the same or similar entities.

 

[Pegusta]

@Trajanus
Well, I should have written semi-physical. I maintain my position that the phenomenon is not a 100% physical one. Regarding physical traces, I think this is a highly controversial area, and we hear a lot of claims of people having recieved scars, scoop marks, and even of retrieving implants. I find that one should tread very carefully here, and really not take everything at face value. I am not ruling out that people have physical effects as a result of the phenomenon, but I do not think it is as common as one would presume.

Regarding your other point:
Is it that strange that we have commonalities between cases in this modern day and era? We live in a global society after all in which we get inflenced by the same concepts and ideas on a daily basis pretty much. And when it comes to the entities, one get the impression that the bug-eyed ones really made an impact in the last decades or so, with people seeing them right, left and centre And before that it was the hot looking blond ones in the center stage. In my opinion concepts that might well have its origin in cultural "contamination". Still I would argue that this is mainly a cultural concept, not necessarily reflecting the real core source of the phenomenon.

 

[Trajanus]

I am not ruling out that people have physical effects as a result of the phenomenon, but I do not think it is as common as one would presume.

Common or not, it indicates a physical abduction phenomenon.

Regarding your other point:
Is it that strange that we have commonalities between cases in this modern day and era? We live in a global society after all in which we get inflenced by the same concepts and ideas on a daily basis pretty much.

But UFO entity stories, as opposed to sci fi, are generally very obscure. There have been abduction reports from relatively remote areas where it's hard to believe the abductees had much if any exposure to UFO literature.

And when it comes to the entities, one get the impression that the bug-eyed ones really made an impact in the last decades or so, with people seeing them right, left and centre And before that it was the hot looking blond ones in the center stage.

The latter were from '50s contactee cases as opposed to abductions, which only began to get some publicity later. The '50s blonds weren't representative of UFO entities generally even then. It's possible that the ETs used very human-like beings to contact people without panicking them, as opposed to abducting them when they had more control, so any gray would do.

 

[Pegusta]

@Trajanus
The prescence of a physical manipulation would seem to point to a physical component certainly. However the abduction phenomenon has a distinct element of lucidity to them, with people experiencing things that seem to be related to a dream state. And again, let me stress that I do not dismiss the phenomenon in its entirety just on account of this premise. To me it would rather indicate, at the same time taking in to consideration the physical aspects previously pointed out, that the phenomenon is potentially a semi-physical one.

It is hard to deny that the image of the prepetrator(s) is incoherent over time, with the entitites appearing in a multitude of guises. It is not a far stretch to suggest that the human component plays a part in this, the cultural aspect being one influencing factor among many. It is my distinct impression that post Communion, something happened, with people seeing similair beings more often than before. Before the ETH became fashionable in modern days the greys were not the most common form in my estimation. Rather people reported on seeing a myriad of different forms of beings; elfs, fairies, gnomes, trolls. These guys seem to have a whole lot of wicked costumes to be used in confusing us. They need to reeboot the hot blonde concept in my opinion

But your argument certainly has validity, and you could well turn out to be right. Not that I think that we will ever get to know the whole picture, far from it. My point is that we may not be seeing the puppet master for all the neat puppets - if you get my meaning

 

[Trajanus]

These guys seem to have a whole lot of wicked costumes to be used in confusing us.

Could be literally true. It's hard to believe some of the stranger entities like "reptoids" are genuine.