Sorry, but anyone that doesn't agree with what he's saying is a moron

[pigfarmer]

And just how many incidents were there where a mass shooting was prevented because someone there had a weapon handy? Point me to the stories.

Problems with the Washington Post or is the fake news?
Opinion | Do citizens (not police officers) with guns ever stop mass shootings?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

And that's why the real gun control matter comes into play. Enhanced background checks would have likely prevented this tragedy. It's highly unlikely an armed individual will stop such episodes; this is a rare case. But if such people don't have guns in the first place, the epidemic of gun deaths might begin to go down.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Problems with the Washington Post or is the fake news?
Opinion | Do citizens (not police officers) with guns ever stop mass shootings?

Fox News is fake news. Breitbart is fake news. Sean Hannity is a major source of fake news. Donald Trump is immersed in fake news.

 

[pigfarmer]

Enhanced background checks would have likely prevented this tragedy.

Absolutely true. 'Effective background checks' might be a better way to put it. No argument from me. Pity for those poor folks in Sutherland Springs that the existing background check procedures were not followed - namely by the US Air Force. 'Enhanced' reminds me of the creation of Homeland Security after 9/11. There was intelligence available at the time that was squandered for lack of cohesion and cooperation between agencies. Beyond the tips given to the FBI you would think the history of domestic disturbance calls that the Nikolas Cruz was involved in could have raised a flag somewhere - and failed to. The fact that it didn't - either through the lack of a process or human failure - speaks to bureaucratic crapulence more than anything else.

It's highly unlikely an armed individual will stop such episodes; this is a rare case

True, but it does happen. Pity the Parkland Armed Resource Officer couldn't manage a better performance.

But if such people don't have guns in the first place, the epidemic of gun deaths might begin to go down.

Also very true - but there are millions of guns already in circulation and they aren't just going to go away, period.

 

[Thomas R Morrison]

And that's why the real gun control matter comes into play. Enhanced background checks would have likely prevented this tragedy. It's highly unlikely an armed individual will stop such episodes; this is a rare case. But if such people don't have guns in the first place, the epidemic of gun deaths might begin to go down.

Yep - I think it's important to see this subject from a bird's eye view and talk about ways of reducing the total number of homicides, most of which by far are committed with a firearm. In America crazy people and previously convicted violent offenders can get guns quite easily. That has to stop.

The "gun freedom fundamentalists" who want no regulation on guns tend to throw out three major red herrings:

1.) They'll cite a specific incident where any regulation you propose wouldn't have stopped that specific case. But there will always be cases that any single regulation would not have prevented. The adults in the room are trying to find ways to save innocent lives overall, so disingenuous debate tactics like cherry-picking in order to "win the argument" are only diversions that are grid-locking the debate while the bodies keep piling up every day.

2.) People will cite the strict laws in their own region and argue from that position as if it's representative of the nation overall, neglecting the fact that in many if not most places around this country, a drooling psychopath with a history of violence and/or dangerous mental illness can buy an incredibly deadly weapon with chilling ease. Here in the Deep South it's easier to buy an assault rifle with a huge clip, than it is to pay a parking ticket.

3.) And with absurd frequency I see people arguing with an imaginary opponent: maybe .1% off the population wants to take away all guns. And those people have zero relevance to this conversation because that's not even on the menu - such a proposal would never even rise to a Congressional vote, and even if it did, it would be crushed hilariously on the House floor. The kinds of regulations that most rational people want to see are obvious and pragmatic: we don't want lunatics with a history of violent behavior and homicidal impulses getting hold of weapons of mass murder, or even a pistol for that matter.

Personally I think that owning a gun should entail a simple but sensible vetting process for a permit: a written test, a conversation with an agent trained to evaluate an applicant's suitability for gun ownership, and a firing range test. It should be like getting a driver's license, but somewhat more rigorous. And people who want to carry concealed, or to own exceptionally deadly weapons, should be vetted even more carefully. Because frankly I think we need a class of citizens to serve a role akin to Air Marshalls as a bulwark against criminal gun violence and, god forbid, to act as a first line of defense if and when our own government clashes violently with the people in the streets (which happens everywhere, sooner or later).

Fox News is fake news. Breitbart is fake news. Sean Hannity is a major source of fake news. Donald Trump is immersed in fake news.

I wish it were that simple Gene, but it's actually far worse than that now. ALL corporate news media is guilty of fake news now (and in many cases they're guilty of something just as bad but perhaps even more insidious: news blackouts about specific things, like the real nature of the US involvement in Syria and Yemen).

I'm much further left than the Democratic Party (which by my estimation is now squarely right-wing - the modern Democratic Party is now indistinguishable from the Reagan-era Republican Party). And one of many examples of "faux-left" fake news is this whole "Russiagate" BS. I've been following that story since it started nearly two years ago now - I've read the reports issued by the ODNI and the FBI, and I've turned over every leaf that's alleged to be evidence of either A.) Russia "hacking the election" or B.) Trump colluding with Russia, and it's all a big fat stupid nothingburger. It's also rapidly escalating tensions with the other major nuclear superpower, with no basis in empirical fact. The entire Democratic Party and their corporate puppets have been pushing this Red Scare hysteria nonstop since the summer of 2016, and they still have nothing to prove either claim. That whole narrative is a smokescreen for the real problem, the real reason we have President Trump: Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party and their sickening corporate news media sycophants completely rigged the 2016 primary against the one candidate who would've crushed Trump in the general election, and the Pied Piper memo proved that they deliberately elevated Trump (and ended up giving him over $5 billion in free media exposure), because those idiots thought that he'd be easy to beat in the general election. So we have a totally Republican-dominated government and a blithering buffoon for a President because of the corruption at the heart of the Democratic Party and the mainstream news media. Not because of Russia...no matter how many insipid and factless hysterical segments that Rachel Maddow (the left's version of Sean Hannity) breathlessly broadcasts to convince us otherwise.

Also very true - but there are millions of guns already in circulation and they aren't just going to go away, period.

A government gun-buyback program could make a huge dent in the number of guns in the hands of criminals in this country.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Guns should only be in hands of trained professional who passed all the mental and training requirements . However, nothing is 100 percent and mental illness kills people not guns during peacetime. USA is difficult situation as it has growing failed state on its border due to ongoing drug cartels.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Overall, except for March, border incursions at the southern border of the U.S. are way down. Don’t fall for Trump’s lies.

 

[pigfarmer]

Yep - I think it's important to see this subject from a bird's eye view and talk about ways of reducing the total number of homicides, most of which by far are committed with a firearm. In America crazy people and previously convicted violent offenders can get guns quite easily. That has to stop.

The "gun freedom fundamentalists" who want no regulation on guns tend to throw out three major red herrings:

1.) They'll cite a specific incident where any regulation you propose wouldn't have stopped that specific case. But there will always be cases that any single regulation would not have prevented. The adults in the room are trying to find ways to save innocent lives overall, so disingenuous debate tactics like cherry-picking in order to "win the argument" are only diversions that are grid-locking the debate while the bodies keep piling up every day.

2.) People will cite the strict laws in their own region and argue from that position as if it's representative of the nation overall, neglecting the fact that in many if not most places around this country, a drooling psychopath with a history of violence and/or dangerous mental illness can buy an incredibly deadly weapon with chilling ease. Here in the Deep South it's easier to buy an assault rifle with a huge clip, than it is to pay a parking ticket.

3.) And with absurd frequency I see people arguing with an imaginary opponent: maybe .1% off the population wants to take away all guns. And those people have zero relevance to this conversation because that's not even on the menu - such a proposal would never even rise to a Congressional vote, and even if it did, it would be crushed hilariously on the House floor. The kinds of regulations that most rational people want to see are obvious and pragmatic: we don't want lunatics with a history of violent behavior and homicidal impulses getting hold of weapons of mass murder, or even a pistol for that matter.

Personally I think that owning a gun should entail a simple but sensible vetting process for a permit: a written test, a conversation with an agent trained to evaluate an applicant's suitability for gun ownership, and a firing range test. It should be like getting a driver's license, but somewhat more rigorous. And people who want to carry concealed, or to own exceptionally deadly weapons, should be vetted even more carefully. Because frankly I think we need a class of citizens to serve a role akin to Air Marshalls as a bulwark against criminal gun violence and, god forbid, to act as a first line of defense if and when our own government clashes violently with the people in the streets (which happens everywhere, sooner or later).


I wish it were that simple Gene, but it's actually far worse than that now. ALL corporate news media is guilty of fake news now (and in many cases they're guilty of something just as bad but perhaps even more insidious: news blackouts about specific things, like the real nature of the US involvement in Syria and Yemen).

I'm much further left than the Democratic Party (which by my estimation is now squarely right-wing - the modern Democratic Party is now indistinguishable from the Reagan-era Republican Party). And one of many examples of "faux-left" fake news is this whole "Russiagate" BS. I've been following that story since it started nearly two years ago now - I've read the reports issued by the ODNI and the FBI, and I've turned over every leaf that's alleged to be evidence of either A.) Russia "hacking the election" or B.) Trump colluding with Russia, and it's all a big fat stupid nothingburger. It's also rapidly escalating tensions with the other major nuclear superpower, with no basis in empirical fact. The entire Democratic Party and their corporate puppets have been pushing this Red Scare hysteria nonstop since the summer of 2016, and they still have nothing to prove either claim. That whole narrative is a smokescreen for the real problem, the real reason we have President Trump: Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party and their sickening corporate news media sycophants completely rigged the 2016 primary against the one candidate who would've crushed Trump in the general election, and the Pied Piper memo proved that they deliberately elevated Trump (and ended up giving him over $5 billion in free media exposure), because those idiots thought that he'd be easy to beat in the general election. So we have a totally Republican-dominated government and a blithering buffoon for a President because of the corruption at the heart of the Democratic Party and the mainstream news media. Not because of Russia...no matter how many insipid and factless hysterical segments that Rachel Maddow (the left's version of Sean Hannity) breathlessly broadcasts to convince us otherwise.


A government gun-buyback program could make a huge dent in the number of guns in the hands of criminals in this country.

Laws have to be specific to the constituency they serve. What works in the Bronx may not in Anchorage or Phoenix. Even in New York State there are (I think) 62 counties. Pistol permits are issued by the county sheriff and the rules do vary slightly from region to region but all have to comply with overarching state and federal laws. Making the existing NICS system actually work more effectively would be a common sense step in the right direction. Of course the minute that happens there will be a certain segment that is paranoid about any checks whatsoever and another which will consider a metal health flag discrimination.

A government buy-back would take a few weapons off the street. Why not try it. I would have no objection.
I don't think it is panacea - this is where people come out of the woodwork to trade some old piece of junk they found into some cash. I have a hard time seeing too many actual criminals or militia members lining up for free doughnuts.

 

[pigfarmer]

Guns should only be in hands of trained professional who passed all the mental and training requirements . However, nothing is 100 percent and mental illness kills people not guns during peacetime. USA is difficult situation as it has growing failed state on its border due to ongoing drug cartels.

As I stated - I am not an NRA member and I do not care for their politics. But guess who actually is responsible for a good chunk of that 'proper training'? NRA certified range officers. Some very competent ones I would add. This is one of those aspects to the organization that is actually doing some good service toward standardized safety training. To belong to the club I do you first have to pass a number of qualification tests to make sure you are safe, and then demonstrate them on a yearly basis to a range officer no matter how long you've been a member. There are too many extreme and/or unsafe idiots out there - the ones that news camera like to catch. Like any human endeavor it all depends on who you're talking to. The reality is somewhat different and a common theme behind what I have been saying is that it's a mistake to make blanket statements or to lump everyone in one basket. Unfortunately that's all too common and moderates wither on the vine. Like me.

What exactly is a trained professional? I have shot in leagues for years with police officers, correction officers, private security guards, active duty military etc. A uniform does not make an expert. You might be surprised at how many show up with poor safety habits and minimal skills that assume they have their **** together and don't.

 

[pigfarmer]

Susquehanna Hat Company ?!

Sorry everyone. Believe it or don't I have never, ever run spewed forth to this extent about guns and am generally bored by people who do. This just happened to catch me in a sore spot on a sore couple of days. Back to the UFOs.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

An armed citizen put two bullets into the shooter.

But details like this will be squashed by MSM because it doesn't fit the "guns are evil" narrative.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

And just how many incidents were there where a mass shooting was prevented because someone there had a weapon handy? Point me to the stories.

So if you want to get into a pissing contest over this, here you go. This happened 3 days after I applied for my permit. Watch & learn as you seem to think no good guy with a gun ever helps/saves anybody

 

[pigfarmer]

Today I am going shooting with a .45 Colt cartridge conversion for a repro 1858 Remington. Handloaded a few varieties of ammo for it, some with real FFFg black powder. I will be chronographing the results. Mild loads, no crash & bang. Antique components and procedures trying to duplicate recipes from 130 years ago. Quietly - yes it is surprisingly unloud - pursuing a hobby with nit-picky detail not bothering anyone. because it's fun to me. Not all gun owners are talking about self-defense, or hunting or mil-spec weapons.

 

[pigfarmer]

Not sure how

But details like this will be squashed by MSM because it doesn't fit the "guns are evil" narrative.

Not sure exactly I feel about the vigilante aspect of this. It's a double edged sword. At least with the two guys in Sutherland Springs they ran toward the problem not away from it. It's true they may well have prevented further loss of life, maybe even a responding police officer. It's also fortunate they didn't crash into anybody on that high speed chase and nobody else was shot by mistake. I believe the man that owned the AR was a 'NRA certified safety instructor' that had to retrieve his rifle from a safe. I guess if you have to have someone wave a gun around then please let them have minimal training. Not a blanket defense of the NRA but there are aspects to what they do which are useful and beneficial; safety training and youth air rifle training come to mind.

 

[DROBNJAK]

Although I live in UK, I keep an constant eye on US debate, because I like firearms, just as a hobby.

In UK gun ownership is completely banned. Yet, police in London every single month recovers about 400 pistols and revolvers. Actually there is a steady supply of smuggled weapons coming from US, but as well from EU. Police constantly recovers assault rifles like AK-47 and Uzis. Essentially, these 400 guns are just a tip of an iceberg. There must be at least 10,000-20,000 firearms in circulation in London, inside criminal circles.

So criminals have no problems arming themselves. And to their aid, British police is constantly manipulating figures to make situation look more acceptable.

Question is, how are disarmed law abiding citizens supposed to defend themselves, when faced with robber with firearm?

 

[SheaOlmsford]

I simply will never understand the hysteria by gun owners over a simple desire to regulate the sale of AR-15s and other weapons of very fast mass murder. You obviously do not use such weapons for hunting unless you are a psychopath who wants to just run into a herd of deer and start a massacre. I think some people are so terrified of their neighbors and the government that they will only be satisfied with their own tanks and nuclear silos.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Although I live in UK, I keep an constant eye on US debate, because I like firearms, just as a hobby.

In UK gun ownership is completely banned. Yet, police in London every single month recovers about 400 pistols and revolvers. Actually there is a steady supply of smuggled weapons coming from US, but as well from EU. Police constantly recovers assault rifles like AK-47 and Uzis. Essentially, these 400 guns are just a tip of an iceberg. There must be at least 10,000-20,000 firearms in circulation in London, inside criminal circles.

So criminals have no problems arming themselves. And to their aid, British police is constantly manipulating figures to make situation look more acceptable.

Question is, how are disarmed law abiding citizens supposed to defend themselves, when faced with robber with firearm?

Ok, so help me understand this scenario. You are sitting at home in front of the TV. Suddenly, a robber comes into the room holding a gun and tells you to stay put or get down on your hands and knees. So what do you do? Run quickly to a cabinet and pull a gun and shoot the robber before he can make a move? Do you watch the TV show FLASH from the USA where the main character, a super hero, can move at faster than light speed? Is that what you envision? Or do you envision sitting in your home in front of the TV at all times armed with a gun? If I heard a robber in my house, I would run to the nearest room with a door to lock, then call the police. I would not turn into RAMBO and start exchanging gun fire with the guy. That seems like such an adolescent fantasy to me and a very easy way to get yourself killed.

Yet no one in the USA is actually demanding the confiscation of guns. All that is being proposed are laws to govern weapons that kill masses of people in seconds, along with mandatory training with the purchase of a gun. But the NRA makes it sound as if such common sense laws are paramount to Nazi storm troopers invading your neighborhood to throw you to the ground and confiscate every gun you own.

Perhaps I am just a privileged white guy living in a gated community with its own private guard service, but I just do not see what everyone is so damn afraid of. It seems that in particular the white heterosexual male in the USA has been brainwashed to be absolutely terrified all the time. I think this is directly related to right wing propaganda that spins one fear based meme after another. The Blacks are out to get you. The Militant Gays are out to get you. The Militant Feminists are out to get you. Hilary Clinton (Queen of Hell and Mafia Head of all world crime) is out to get you. Obama is out to get you by secretly putting his Black semen into the sperm banks all across the USA. The dirt poor immigrants are out to take your upper middle class jobs! Democrats are out to get you. Aliens from Outer Space are out to get you and shove an anal probe up your butt. People speaking Spanish are out to get you. Every single Muslim is out to get you. Militant strains of bacteria are out to get you. Teenage survivors of mass murder scenes are out to get you. George Soros is out to get you with his millions of paid protesters in every single city in the USA! NASA is out to get you by claiming the earth is round when all good fundamentalist Christians know it is flat. The madness never ends!

When I was a kid in the late 50's and then a teen in the 60's, people were not constantly afraid of so many imaginary bogeymen all out to get them. What changed? The revocation of the Fairness Doctrine and the ascendancy of HATE Radio, Fox News and hundreds of right wing fear based internet conspiracy sites that pump all this fear out 7 by 24. We are a society in fear of its own shadow (and I know how Jungian that actually is).

 

[Tyger]

Ok, so help me understand this scenario. You are sitting at home in front of the TV. Suddenly, a robber comes into the room holding a gun and tells you to stay put or get down on your hands and knees. So what do you do? Run quickly to a cabinet and pull a gun and shoot the robber before he can make a move? Do you watch the TV show FLASH from the USA where the main character, a super hero, can move at faster than light speed? Is that what you envision? Or do you envision sitting in your home in front of the TV at all times armed with a gun? If I heard a robber in my house, I would run to the nearest room with a door to lock, then call the police. I would not turn into RAMBO and start exchanging gun fire with the guy. That seems like such an adolescent fantasy to me and a very easy way to get yourself killed.

Reminds me of this stand-up routine.

Jim Jefferies - Gun Control Part 1

Jim Jefferies - Gun Control Part 2

 

[DROBNJAK]

Ok, so help me understand this scenario. You are sitting at home in front of the TV. Suddenly, a robber comes into the room holding a gun and tells you to stay put or get down on your hands and knees. So what do you do? Run quickly to a cabinet and pull a gun and shoot the robber before he can make a move? Do you watch the TV show FLASH from the USA where the main character, a super hero, can move at faster than light speed? Is that what you envision? Or do you envision sitting in your home in front of the TV at all times armed with a gun? If I heard a robber in my house, I would run to the nearest room with a door to lock, then call the police. I would not turn into RAMBO and start exchanging gun fire with the guy. That seems like such an adolescent fantasy to me and a very easy way to get yourself killed.

Well, you are trying to be entertaining. When armed robber is on your door or even worst inside your house, nobody can predict what will happen. Most homeowners are able to reach for guns, before they are confronted with robbers.

You have to understand that robbers don't follow some kind of rule-book. So if you do what he tells you to do, you'll be safe. Like in a high-school ;-). Nope, you can play obedient and he can still kill you just to remove a witness. Get it engraved deep inside your pituitary gland, if he's holding a gun and you are not, you have no control over your own life. Robbers and muggers don't have a sense of guilt, they won't be standing there and thinking "He's such a nice liberal guy. Should I kill him or not." He'll just kill you and go home to watch footsie like nothing had happened. Its just a very different kind of normal.

If I am for guns, I am not against gun control. British system works very well. Police checks you thoroughly, one needs references etc. and if they find you OK you can have any rifle you want. I have friends with 4-5 rifles of all caliber sizes. There is no discrimination etc.

Although I think that Brits should be allowed to own guns and do the cancel carry. In the last terrorist attack 40 people were knifed and few died. It took police more than 5 minutes to arrive. It all happened near a pub full of people. If a pub's bouncers were licensed for canceled carry, they would had been able to cut terrorists down and prevent lives of innocent people being ruined.

Because there is no canceled carry in UK, now motorbike robberies and knife stabbings are rife in London, so much so that police is completely overwhelmed and helpless and instead of tackling the crime, the advise residents on preventive steps: Moped crime: How can you protect yourself?