SRL+
Paranormal Adept
Considered as a manufactured material unknown to exist on the planet.
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Special Paracast Episode: ET Hypothesis Debate
- Thread starter Gene Steinberg
- Start date
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Considered as a manufactured material unknown to exist on the planet.
Linton
Intellectually Omnivorous
Ya, well, I’ve had that discussion with any number of skeptics before. You would need to ask them. The problem is perhaps that an unidentifiable image is not necessarily an image of an unidentifiable object; just a stellar example of poor photography.
Thomas R Morrison
Paranormal Adept
Mike is right: this is a straw man argument because there’s no such thing as “an unassailable image of any type.” Photographs are inherently unverifiable, in and of themselves, because there are as many ways to spoof them as a cunning imagination can devise, and even mundane phenomena can produce an anomalous-looking image.
That’s why we need contemporary scientific instrumentation to collect a diverse range of precision data directly from the scene of a ufo sighting at the time it’s happening. The “unassailable” aka scientific burden of proof requires nothing less. And for 70 years the public outcry for that kind of earnest investigative effort have been met with giggles and patronizing refusals from the only people who could provide such an investigation: our government and specifically the US military complex.
So even those who prefer to snicker at the very rational and now scientifically well-justified notion of extraterrestrial visitation, should also be clamoring for a bona fide empirical investigation into these sightings, because that also happens to be the only way to produce a true scientific consensus that these sighting events are all simply delusions or misidentifications in toto.
Therefore I say: put up or shut up. Either join us in our call for a thorough and impartial scientific investigation so we can settle this issue once and for all, or keep the snide dismissive comments to yourself – because if you’re not interested enough to get to the bottom of this issue, then your opinion is as worthless as it is baseless.
I would argue that a photograph has far less empirical value than radar returns, for example, because a photographic image can be spoofed and/or simply deceptive based on the complex optical possibilities inherent with a photograph. Radar equipment on the other hand is extremely reliable precision instrumentation that very rarely signals a false positive, and in the rare instances that it does – like a flock of birds being mistaken for a solid object in the sky, there’s still something reflecting the signal. And we have plenty of credible radar cases. The Channel Islands case has the radar trace evidence from two independent radar towers, which detected both objects reported by the pilot Ray Bowyer and at least three of his passengers on board, as well as independent confirmation from another pilot in the area at the time who responded to the request for visual confirmation from air traffic control. Clearly that case has stronger empirical evidence than any photograph could offer. And even if Ray had snapped a photo from the strongly vibrating cockpit of his twin-engine-prop plane, chances are it would look like just another obscure smudge of light in the sky that half the people would dismiss as a lens reflection or a hoax or some other form of optical aberration, because those factors can never be completely ruled out.
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SRL+
Paranormal Adept
Thank you for your unvarnished opinion.
200 years ago the plastic water bottle would have fit that description.
From past observations, it has been noted that many of these objects have an intricate network carbon nano-tubes inside of the metal and the devices have been known to give off radio signals too. Still, not all objects give off a signal, they may not be operating for the time being and it is still unknown to humans if the owner of these implants is responsible for switching such sophisticated technology on and off, inside the body.
The most recent patient, who was in his 50s, that Colbern dealt with had remembered what happened to him when he was about 10 years old. The man recalls camping out in the forest with his friends when a UFO had taken him up, as he cannot forget them inserting something into his wrist. Decades later, he still had that object in his hand until Colbern and Dr. Leir were able to pull it out of him. "It was extremely hard, even diamond tools would not cut it and that’s unheard of," Colbern told about the properties of the foreign object taken from the patient’s body.
Besides the solidity of the object, it produced no type of inflammation, which never happens. Whenever a foreign object is in the body, it produces some degree of inflammation, however all of the unidentifiable objects found in patients who claim to have been abducted have no indication of inflammation.
If the foreign objects of unknown origin aren’t enough, there are different shades of dye which are left behind on the abducted ones. Colbern has been investigating the dye that is cobalt blue in color and stays on the skin of an abductee for about one month. "It’s a marker dye and can only be seen under ultra violet ray lighting and it’s almost impossible to wash off," the scientist explained.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/voiceofruss...-not-cut-it-that-s-unheard-of-scientist-9484/
If the elements in the universe are consistent as we see with stars, its unlikely you will find anything that fits your criteria.
Even something as seemingly exotic as a carbon nanotube that gives off radio waves, can be reconciled as being from here, or elsewhere. We just cant know.
Thomas R Morrison
Paranormal Adept
You're welcome. And make no mistake - I find it deeply frustrating that my own opinion on this matter is as baseless as it is, as well. I can point to some excellent radar-visual cases and some trace evidence cases and lots of credible multiple-witness sightings, in addition to a range of compelling findings in astronomy and astrobiology, as the basis of my opinion - but even that's a tenuous foundation compared to what we all should have: real data and analyses from a truly comprehensive scientific investigation into this phenomenon. Until that happens, all of our opinions are essentially worthless because none of us have the hard data required to settle the debate one way or another.
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Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Mike and Thomas and S.R.L:
Well using the drawing by Dale Spaur and the photo taken that night by another police officer of the ship multiple police officers were chasing from one state to the next I'd say that's a pretty interesting set of data points. And that makes it a very curious photo.
If we are going to call for science in this field and disregard experts in the field who complete photo analysis then are we to disregard all the experts? Which bits of science have merit and which don't? Detailed scientific analysis of many photos have been completed and yes there are problems there with some cases where the experts have it wrong, but when there is a preponderance of evidence and other corresponding observers and you have a photo, then maybe that photo deserves a little more merit and analysis.
I'm quoting Vallee when I say no collection of UFO experts can agree on any single one photo. The lack of solid, confirmed photographic evidence, especially in an age of image production, is a little problematic. Although I recognize we are also in an age of photo manipulation which complicates things I know. Still....no one really has stepped forward with a quality image to make heads scratch outside of the triangle photo and even that had a hoax confession attached to it years later.
Many consequently prefer to look at the older photos from the pre-digital manipulation era. And if there are this many actual craft flying in our skies then we should be able to see actual photos of them to corroborate sightings. Footage does exist. Sightings are very frequent. Where are the excellent pics?
I'm not asking these to be judgmental or anything, but these are legitimate questions that are part of the mystery. Photos don't always correspond to what's been seen. Other photos have well defined craft in them - are they all hoaxes? Would the photos of blobs of light or distorted objects better support Thomas' arguments regarding propulsion?
I don't understand where or why the unvarnished attitudes have to insert themselves into the discussion. Not everything is an attack. Some questions are merely about probing edges of the mystery.
Thomas R Morrison
Paranormal Adept
You’re making the point for me, Burnt – barring additional supporting evidence, photos are worthless, so this whole idea about “show me one conclusive photo” is a red herring because there’s no such thing as “conclusive photographic evidence.” Even expert photo analysts make mistakes; we've seen that again and again. So there are lots of compelling photos of ufos dating back several decades – but can we point to any specific one as “the smoking gun?” Of course not, because any specific image could’ve been faked, or been the product of some kind of camera failure or anything else.
Yeah I probably shouldn’t have bitten his head off for asking a question.
But I’ve been barraged with that same question so many times by “skeptics” who habitually ask that question knowing full well that no photograph can ever constitute incontrovertible evidence, that I now associate that question with malice and disingenuous debate tactics. It only occurred to me in retrospect that it might’ve been an honest question, for a change, and perhaps it was.
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Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Well this is the big question as there's a lot of stuff claimed to have been ejected from UFO's and often it's mundane or the analysis of it is very suggestive but not conclusive. Very recently Vallee has been talking about reexamining samples from a UFO explosion that point to a manufacturing beyond our capacity for the times. So I'll leave some pertinent links here that speak to investigations in these areas that seem to show some conflict regarding these samples.
The first interview Thomas may find interesting as Vallee answers questions regarding just what scientific evidence has been accumulated so far but then as someone who disputes Vallee's arguments and Hynek for his CE definition, (which i find rather bizarre as what's scientific investigation of UFO's if not these two?) you might not find it all that interesting. Still, it is the undisputed collection of evidence to date and it does speak to cover up operations of evidence as well for those interested in the conspiratorial angle:
Heretic Among Heretics: Jacques Vallee Interview - UFO Evidence
And then Vallee was recently on Grimerica talking with my friend RPJ, a fellow Reframer about revisiting analysis of supposed UFO materials so some might want to bypass this as well:
Jacques Vallée Discusses UFO Isotope Ratios and the Nature of Reality on "Grimerica"
And finally, the original analysis of that infamous piece of magnesium from Ubatuba:
Ubatuba Incident - Condon
I understand that there's been a second look at Rogers Leir's work but I originally found it lacking as he wasn't able to use a level of analysis to properly prove the isotopic ratios he was laying claim to. But perhaps someone else has new info on that one?
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Well I'm not really here to make points as I learned long ago people who hold tight to beliefs can not be swayed and those who probe and are driven purely by curiosity tend to roll a different way but I get your frustration. I let mine out too sometimes. Note my sardonic tone above for example.
So yes in the history of UFOs flying in our skies I think it's actually a little reasonable to believe that we should have some photographic evidence that does make us scratch our heads, especially if they coincide with sightings by multiple witnesses and radar. And these should spurn us on to investigate further in one direction or another. Either those classic UFO photos are all hoaxes and the blobs of light or blurred images tell us something more valuable or I don't know what.....just throwing out questions is all to see where they might lead.
SRL+
Paranormal Adept
I agree Robert, although, having been hanging around here since 2010 a feeling of dread occasionally precipitates a posting on a thread, which may be considered as contentious.
As you know, the two of us have kicked around a few different thoughts, such as your alleged experience, Project Hessdalen, possible hallucinogens involved in the Rwanda sighting, and the infamous Skinwalker saga.
My current train of thought, (via Lee Smolin), revolves around the prospect that there may be a different type of physics in the unforeseeable, unknown universe which may possess the ability to interact with the knowable and foreseen.
Final thought here is that I recall a sighting where there were several professional photographers on Long Island photographing a jetliner. In multiple images, there were spherical objects detected, that were apparently alongside the jetliner.
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Thomas R Morrison
Paranormal Adept
I’m glad you found this episode as stimulating a we did Linton, and thank you for the encouraging words.
To this point I would simply state that any emerging intelligent species on the planet would leave behind a complete fossil record, and clear evidence of their rising civilization – if only in the form of spearheads or primitive pottery. And we’ve found nothing like that in all of the archaeological digs spanning thousands of years – everything we’ve found (and we’ve found irrefutable evidence of our current evolutionary model dating back to trilobites and beyond) conforms to the conventional model that humans represent the first civilization to arise upon the Earth.
I suppose that some intelligent fish species –might- have been able to arise undetected by archaeology, but even that seems a stretch, because we have lots of areas that are now above ground, that we formerly beneath the ocean, and no pre-human civilization of any kind at all has been detected.
It really comes down to this: we now have every reason to believe that technological civilizations have arisen billions of times throughout cosmic history, randomly distributed throughout the galaxies. So the only reason we wouldn’t expect them to send devices here, is if interstellar travel is impractical for all civilizations no matter how advanced they become.
But as marduk points out, we already have the capability of sending small probes to other stars – we just haven’t done so yet, because the time and energy issues seem too impractical and costly. Certainly that’s going to change – the fastest speeds attained by human technology are growing asymptotically, and, we already have a compelling theoretical argument that presents the credible possibility that one day our technological capability will surpass the speed of light to a theoretically arbitrary degree, while also circumnavigating the problems of time dilation and the energy consumption problems associated with the very primitive rocket principle that we depend on today.
So if we simply extrapolate based on what we know about our own technological and scientific progress, it’s easy to see that many interstellar civilizations have already likely arisen throughout the observable universe, and making a trip to see what us zany humans are getting up to may be as easy to them as taking a ferry across the river is for us.
Fermi was right to ask the question “where is everybody?” Where he erred, is that he didn’t look up to see them in our skies, and he dismissed the untold thousands of accounts from all the people who did and witnessed an extraterrestrial device passing overhead.
I would argue that because we don’t yet have the technological capability to detect evidence of exosolar civilizations, that the absence of that data is meaningless.
As we discussed on the show, picking up radio signals from a civilization like our own 20th-Century civilization is impossible for our best modern technology – and the chances of such a civilization going through that same era at basically the exact same time that we did, is indistinguishable from zero.
And as we’re seeing right now, there are vastly more efficient, lower-energy methods for transmitting information. So we’re becoming harder to detect as time passes. Any civilization even more advanced than ours will broadcast even weaker signals than we do today, because technological advancement is directly proportional to efficiency.
I’m hopeful that one day we’ll have a space telescope of sufficient size and clarity to detect artificial light on the dark side of exosolar planets, emitted from civilizations of arbitrary sophistication, because as we’ve seen on the Earth so far - cities grow in brightness each and every decade – and it will probably always be practical to light cities at night. So the "night-time artificial lighting footprint" of a civilization may span the entire existence of that civilization.
But we may also detect atomic tests from exosolar civilizations – I would think that the power of those signals would propagate much further than the comparatively weak radio and television station broadcasts from the 20th Century. And as Chris pointed out on the show, it sure as hell seems suspicious that we were inundated with ufo sightings not long after we detonated our own nuclear bombs for the first time. If I were an interstellar civilization picking up atomic blasts from some backwater solar system, I know I’d send some probes to covertly monitor that planet to see what the lunatics there were doing to their own planet and ecosystem, or to see if they’d simply annihilated themselves at the first opportunity.
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Lol, A couple of kids with a tin can and string telephone, wont pick up any WiFi.
Hubble found stuff we didn't even know was there in the deep field images, and now its being suggested we need AI to really "see" the universe.
AI could be the perfect tool for exploring the Universe
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Yes we've had some interesting tossing abouts of the mystery and from what I remember this were good discussions. I think the back and forth in open minded spaces always yields the most interesting explorations.
But I get the dread you speak of. I've checked out the forum multiple times for much of the same reason. Private discussions with open minds and no axe to grind is much more productive.
As for unknown physics.....if we are to believe what CE cases present then there is definitely something else going on beyond our own limits of what we think we know about time and space. But as a relatively junior species as far as evolution goes I'm impressed with both our advancements so far as a species as well as our arrogance in what we think we know is possible. I think the old adage of the more we know the more we know how little we know has some bearing on the UFO conundrum.
Do you have those photos as I could not find a specific reference to the jetliner case you mentioned?
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
You're thinking only about life forms as we know them: visible flesh and blood. Is that the be all and end all of what an intelligent species could be? Or how about Mike's whole absence of evidence is not evidence of anything or even better that a post biological species perhaps has settled here long ago and needs no fossil record to support it. If we are going to be creative and imaginative about the pilots, be they former dolphins that evolved without a trace of technological production or a life form that lives like s cloud of dust, then why revert to these same old standards? Either everything is possible in this discussion or harsh delineations must wash across the whole spectrum.
And that's only dealing with their end...on our end cocreation is not mumbo jumbo as you described it but it is how the biological interpretive mechanism called sight works everytime you think you are looking at external reality translated into a virtual reality in your mind coloured by sociology and personal experience and individual unique capacities.
Thomas R Morrison
Paranormal Adept
You can’t have it both ways: either some imponderable form of life which isn’t biological in nature has arisen on Earth without leaving any physical footprint, or a technological civilization has emerged previously to ours which builds solid technological devices that are visible to the human eye, return radar signals, and leave landing impressions.
They can’t be simultaneously devoid of a physical footprint, and yet have also evolved a sophisticated industrial society capable of building aerial devices that can fly circles around our most advanced aircraft and missiles. To refine an industrial capacity, they would’ve had to go through a technological evolution process just as we have, that would leave lots of evidence for us to find somewhere in the geological record – but we’ve found nothing.
Sure, other civilizations (post-biological or otherwise) may have colonized the Earth long ago, but if they spent any significant time here then they must’ve scoured the globe of all traces of their presence, apparently to hide themselves from a technological civilization (ours) that might emerge millennia or eons into the future. Which makes no practical sense whatsoever.
All of these contortions of logic stem from this simple thought block: for some reason you're assuming that interstellar travel must be so infeasible for any technological civilization regardless of its level of advancement that it's extremely rare or it never happens at all, so any other explanation no matter how ill-supported by fact or reason must be a preferable explanation. But our own and best theoretical physics model, general relativity, has already opened the door to hyperfast interstellar travel, so this reluctance to accept the ETH is entirely without rational justification.
And before I’m going to consider the possibility of a form of life completely unknown to us and imperceptible to us, I demand a clear rational description of how that could be possible. Show me an explicit model that is rationally defensible - this applies to the "co-creation hypothesis" as well - it's not a valid hypothesis until you can explain how it can be consistent with the laws of physics. Otherwise we’re venturing deep into “woo” territory where every loony idea is given credence, like “teddy bears are actually sentient beings incapable of physical movement” or “my turnip garden performs operas when nobody’s listening.”
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SRL+
Paranormal Adept
After the first postings way back when, I soon discovered what tribal warfare was all about…, LOL.
As far as the jetliner goes, I heard either Vallee or Ted Roe discussing the event on an episode of the Paracast in or around 2015. Going over to NARCAP’s website, there is nothing that I am able to detect mentioning the sighting.
I found this sighting, which could be one in the same, as I could be mistaken.
http://www.narcap.org/files/narcap_TR-12_2007.pdf
Now, in piquing my curiosity, I may have to reach out to Roe. Then again, forum member Isaac Koi would probably know, who I have alerted.
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David Brin dealt with this in his brilliant "uplift" series. Well worth a read i promise.
BRIN's worlds of UPLIFT
Uplift (Literature) - TV Tropes
Essentially its the big time-span aspect Ive mentioned. In this case life friendly biospheres get used multiple times, with the galactic institute of uplift overseeing the cleanup process between the birthing of client races.
In brins novels the tectonic plate interfaces are used to dump all traces of a previous civilization, where they get folded back into the mantle where they are destroyed.
Each planet is then left "fallow" for a few million years and watched for the natural emergence of pre sentient sophonts, who can then be coached and genetically uplifted to sentience and technological proficiency.
The "no trace" conundrum can be resolved in a scenario like this where the biosphere is being managed by older patron species as a garden where sentience is grown.
Please quote me properly
I was quoting the argument from ignorance dictum which states as a logical fallacy the suggestion that:
A proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true.
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!"
-- Carl Sagan, Astronomer
Nor has it ever been my suggestion that a post biological society has settled here, at best Ive suggested such a group might have seeded this planet and or genetically uplifted a native bioform to sentience and technological proficiency. I cant see why a post biological society would settle a planet.
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