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What Mike is doing in terms of updating the (available) science is important ... it's a species level decision and all development should be transparent.



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Here it is:

Pharyngula
Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain



There he goes again, making up nonsense and making ridiculous claims that have no relationship to reality. Ray Kurzweil must be able to spin out a good line of bafflegab, because he seems to have the tech media convinced that he’s a genius, when he’s actually just another Deepak Chopra for the computer science cognoscenti.
His latest claim is that we’ll be able to reverse engineer the human brain within a decade. By reverse engineer, he means that we’ll be able to write software that simulates all the functions of the human brain. He’s not just speculating optimistically, though: he’s building his case on such awfully bad logic that I’m surprised anyone still pays attention to that kook.

Sejnowski says he agrees with Kurzweil’s assessment that about a million lines of code may be enough to simulate the human brain.

Here’s how that math works, Kurzweil explains: The design of the brain is in the genome. The human genome has three billion base pairs or six billion bits, which is about 800 million bytes before compression, he says. Eliminating redundancies and applying loss-less compression, that information can be compressed into about 50 million bytes, according to Kurzweil.

About half of that is the brain, which comes down to 25 million bytes, or a million lines of code.

I’m very disappointed in Terence Sejnowski for going along with that nonsense.
See that sentence I put in red up there? That’s his fundamental premise, and it is utterly false. Kurzweil knows nothing about how the brain works. It’s design is not encoded in the genome: what’s in the genome is a collection of molecular tools wrapped up in bits of conditional logic, the regulatory part of the genome, that makes cells responsive to interactions with a complex environment. The brain unfolds during development, by means of essential cell:cell interactions, of which we understand only a tiny fraction. The end result is a brain that is much, much more than simply the sum of the nucleotides that encode a few thousand proteins. He has to simulate all of development from his codebase in order to generate a brain simulator, and he isn’t even aware of the magnitude of that problem.

We cannot derive the brain from the protein sequences underlying it; the sequences are insufficient, as well, because the nature of their expression is dependent on the environment and the history of a few hundred billion cells, each plugging along interdependently. We haven’t even solved the sequence-to-protein-folding problem, which is an essential first step to executing Kurzweil’s clueless algorithm. And we have absolutely no way to calculate in principle all the possible interactions and functions of a single protein with the tens of thousands of other proteins in the cell!

Let me give you a few specific examples of just how wrong Kurzweil’s calculations are. Here are a few proteins that I plucked at random from the NIH database; all play a role in the human brain.

First up is RHEB (Ras Homolog Enriched in Brain). It’s a small protein, only 184 amino acids, which Kurzweil pretends can be reduced to about 12 bytes of code in his simulation. Here’s the short description.

MTOR (FRAP1; 601231) integrates protein translation with cellular nutrient status and growth signals through its participation in 2 biochemically and functionally distinct protein complexes, MTORC1 and MTORC2. MTORC1 is sensitive to rapamycin and signals downstream to activate protein translation, whereas MTORC2 is resistant to rapamycin and signals upstream to activate AKT (see 164730). The GTPase RHEB is a proximal activator of MTORC1 and translation initiation. It has the opposite effect on MTORC2, producing inhibition of the upstream AKT pathway (Mavrakis et al., 2008).

Got that? You can’t understand RHEB until you understand how it interacts with three other proteins, and how it fits into a complex regulatory pathway. Is that trivially deducible from the structure of the protein? No. It had to be worked out operationally, by doing experiments to modulate one protein and measure what happened to others. If you read deeper into the description, you discover that the overall effect of RHEB is to modulate cell proliferation in a tightly controlled quantitative way. You aren’t going to be able to simulate a whole brain until you know precisely and in complete detail exactly how this one protein works.

And it’s not just the one. It’s all of the proteins. Here’s another: FABP7 (Fatty Acid Binding Protein 7). This one is only 132 amino acids long, so Kurzweil would compress it to 8 bytes. What does it do?

Anthony et al. (2005) identified a Cbf1 (147183)-binding site in the promoter of the mouse Blbp gene. They found that this binding site was essential for all Blbp transcription in radial glial cells during central nervous system (CNS) development. Blbp expression was also significantly reduced in the forebrains of mice lacking the Notch1 (190198) and Notch3 (600276) receptors. Anthony et al. (2005) concluded that Blbp is a CNS-specific Notch target gene and suggested that Blbp mediates some aspects of Notch signaling in radial glial cells during development.

Again, what we know of its function is experimentally determined, not calculated from the sequence. It would be wonderful to be able to take a sequence, plug it into a computer, and have it spit back a quantitative assessment of all of its interactions with other proteins, but we can’t do that, and even if we could, it wouldn’t answer all the questions we’d have about its function, because we’d also need to know the state of all of the proteins in the cell, and the state of all of the proteins in adjacent cells, and the state of global and local signaling proteins in the environment. It’s an insanely complicated situation, and Kurzweil thinks he can reduce it to a triviality.

To simplify it so a computer science guy can get it, Kurzweil has everything completely wrong. The genome is not the program; it’s the data. The program is the ontogeny of the organism, which is an emergent property of interactions between the regulatory components of the genome and the environment, which uses that data to build species-specific properties of the organism. He doesn’t even comprehend the nature of the problem, and here he is pontificating on magic solutions completely free of facts and reason.

I’ll make a prediction, too. We will not be able to plug a single unknown protein sequence into a computer and have it derive a complete description of all of its functions by 2020. Conceivably, we could replace this step with a complete, experimentally derived quantitative summary of all of the functions and interactions of every protein involved in brain development and function, but I guarantee you that won’t happen either. And that’s just the first step in building a simulation of the human brain derived from genomic data. It gets harder from there.

I’ll make one more prediction. The media will not end their infatuation with this pseudo-scientific dingbat, Kurzweil, no matter how uninformed and ridiculous his claims get.
(via Mo Constandi)
I’ve noticed an odd thing. Criticizing Ray Kurzweil brings out swarms of defenders, very few of whom demonstrate much ability to engage in critical thinking.
If you are complaining that I’ve claimed it will be impossible to build a computer with all the capabilities of the human brain, or that I’m arguing for dualism, look again. The brain is a computer of sorts, and I’m in the camp that says there is no problem in principle with replicating it artificially.

What I am saying is this:
Reverse engineering the human brain has complexities that are hugely underestimated by Kurzweil, because he demonstrates little understanding of how the brain works.
His timeline is absurd. I’m a developmental neuroscientist; I have a very good idea of the immensity of what we don’t understand about how the brain works. No one with any knowledge of the field is claiming that we’ll understand how the brain works within 10 years. And if we don’t understand all but a fraction of the functionality of the brain, that makes reverse engineering extremely difficult.

Kurzweil makes extravagant claims from an obviously extremely impoverished understanding of biology. His claim that “The design of the brain is in the genome”? That’s completely wrong. That makes him a walking talking demo of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Most of the functions of the genome, which Kurzweil himself uses as the starting point for his analysis, are not understood. I don’t expect a brain simulator to slavishly imitate every protein, but you will need to understand how the molecules work if you’re going to reverse engineer the whole.

If you’re an acolyte of Kurzweil, you’ve been bamboozled. He’s a kook."

Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain – Pharyngula

Wow ... and ouch for K.

"I’ve noticed an odd thing. Criticizing Ray Kurzweil brings out swarms of defenders, very few of whom demonstrate much ability to engage in critical thinking.

If you are complaining that I’ve claimed it will be impossible to build a computer with all the capabilities of the human brain, or that I’m arguing for dualism, look again. The brain is a computer of sorts, and I’m in the camp that says there is no problem in principle with replicating it artificially."

I don't think it's the case here on this thread re: critical thinking - but Kurzweil is a cult figure for some. And he does take 150-200 supplements a day:

Ray and Terry's Longevity Products

Transparency should include psychological and sociological motivations.




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What Mike is doing in terms of updating the (available) science is important ... it's a species level decision and all development should be transparent.

Yes, by rights it should be a species-level decision, but our species won't be in a position to make it. Nor is our species in a position to understand the risks and damages involved in the release of other major new technologies and genetic alterations going forward in the corporate marketplace, as we have already seen with genetically modified foods.

"Accustomed to living with almost routine scientific breakthroughs, we have yet to come to terms with the fact that the most compelling 21st-century technologies - robotics, genetic engineering, and nanotechnology - pose a different threat than the technologies that have come before. Specifically, robots, engineered organisms, and nanobots share a dangerous amplifying factor: They can self-replicate. A bomb is blown up only once - but one bot can become many, and quickly get out of control.

. . . While replication in a computer or a computer network can be a nuisance, at worst it disables a machine or takes down a network or network service. Uncontrolled self-replication in these newer technologies runs a much greater risk: a risk of substantial damage in the physical world."

That quotation is from the prodigious computer scientist Bill Joy in his lengthy, well-informed, and insightful article "Why the future doesn't need us," published by Wired magazine in 2000, which should have been carried in its entirety in newspapers worldwide when it first appeared if these world-changing new technologies were being promoted transparently. The individuals and corporations in charge of and funding these technologies are not interested in holding a plebiscite to obtain the species vote. I recommend the article, in its entirety, linked here:

Wired 8.04: Why the future doesn't need us.=

 
Behavior-altering parasites and parasitoids - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note the discussion of adaptive vs coincidental by-product ...

VS

"everything is here because it's been selected"


------/

"The way in which parasites induce behavioral changes in hosts has been compared to the way a neurobiologist would affect a similar change in a lab.[7] A scientist may stimulate a certain pathway, either mechanically or chemically, in order to produce a specific behavior, such as increased appetite or lowered anxiety.

Parasites also produce specific behavioral changes in their hosts. Rather than stimulating specific neurological pathways, however, parasites appear to target broader areas of the central nervous system (CNS).

While the proximate mechanisms underlying this broad targeting have not been fully characterized, two mechanisms used by parasites to alter social behavior in their vertebrate hosts have been identified:
infection of the CNS and altered neurochemical communication."


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"When threatened with parasitic attack, hosts can increase their reproductive success by protecting themselves;

however, they can also do so indirectly by protecting their kin.

Kin protection has been proposed as a case of adaptive suicidal behavior in infected hosts.

Kin selection theory states that an infected host can increase its inclusive fitness by lowering the risk of parasitic infection for its kin. By killing itself, the host kills the parasite, thereby reducing the chances that the parasite will infect its kin. For suicide to be considered adaptive, the increased inclusive fitness associated with suicide must exceed the loss of personal reproductive success for the host.

Although the parasitized individual’s future reproductive success is reduced to zero after suicide, if kin are spared from infection as a result, the host’s genes are still passed on to the next generation. Thus, the tendency to commit suicide in the face of parasitic infection will be preserved and may spread in the population."

... who is suiciding in this example?

The pea aphid:

Death by risky behavior enfrente de a predator.

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We touched on it earlier, and you seemed to disagree: my thought is that human creativity and imagination lends itself to our behavioral and cognitive adaptability.

Human creativity/imagination evolved because it was adaptive and art, culture, and spirituality just came along for the ride. This creativity/imagination allows us not to just learn from personal experience, or even the observed experiences of others, but we can imagine ourselves doing novel things in the future and form hypothesis about potential consequences and choose our actions accordingly.

That's not to say that other animals don't have this mental ability, but certainly not to the extent of humans.

At least that's the reductive, just-so story. Perhaps human creativity/imagination stems from a different source.

"Human creativity/imagination evolved because it was adaptive and art, culture, and spirituality just came along for the ride. This creativity/imagination allows us not to just learn from personal experience, or even the observed experiences of others, but we can imagine ourselves doing novel things in the future and form hypothesis about potential consequences and choose our actions accordingly."

1. Evolution selects.

2. Creativity and imagination are complex.

3. They don't exist in animals the way they do in humans.

So you are t(s)elling me a story of a common ancestor (not yet human, not yet even Homo ... who engaged in a wide variety of behaviors, some of which were creative or proto-imaginative and which could then be and were selected because they were adaptive (see posts above) ...

I'm sending the story back for a little more detail on the development of imagination before it got to the point where it got selected.

...

The trouble with what's here is here because it got selected is

1. It equates to it's here because it's here which translates to

2. Because

And it skips the very interesting possibilities of why it got selected and that ignores the ladies, doesn't it?

But more fundamentally it ignores that we live in a world structured to implement natural selection before biology came along.

This is where the multiverse saves us.

Are there other possible worlds and processes and what would they produce in 4 billion years?

On that

story

what's the probability we are in the one where medium sized apes are the Ones who can figure it all out?

Infinity or one in infinity?






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@Pharoah 's HCT model addresses this. Starting from elementary particles onward, all that exists must be tuned to the environment in which it exists, otherwise it will cease to exist.

The physical structure of any object therefore — as far as it is tuned to its environment — embodies information about the environment.

Thus, say, aliens might be able to discern a lot of information about the environmental niche of a crocodile just by examining its body and behaviors.

So, yes, humans carry with them a lot of innate information in the structure of their body-brains — the collective unconscious. Information that is ultimately carried in our DNA.

The idea that a human "mind" could be uploaded into a non-humanoid body and remain sane is dubious. A human mind would require human sensory input, including internal sensations. In the absense of human sensory input, I imagine a human mind would go insane. (This is one reason I also question the paranormal concept of disincarnate minds that nevertheless appear to have access to sensory input in the absense of a human body.)

Having said all that, there does seem to be a sense though in which the mind is able to transcend the body. There is something about human imagination and creativity that seems to transcend the physical body and its experiences.

So, yes, humans carry with them a lot of innate information in the structure of their body-brains — the collective unconscious. Information that is ultimately carried in our DNA.

Do I understand this correctly, that that likely wouldn't be so?

Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain – Pharyngula

"See that sentence I put in red up there? That’s his fundamental premise, and it is utterly false. Kurzweil knows nothing about how the brain works. It’s design is not encoded in the genome:

what’s in the genome is a collection of molecular tools wrapped up in bits of conditional logic, the regulatory part of the genome, that makes cells responsive to interactions with a complex environment. The brain unfolds during development, by means of essential cell:cell interactions, of which we understand only a tiny fraction. The end result is a brain that is much, much more than simply the sum of the nucleotides that encode a few thousand proteins.

We cannot derive the brain from the protein sequences underlying it; the sequences are insufficient, as well, because the nature of their expression is dependent on the environment and the history of a few hundred billion cells, each plugging along interdependently."

So the collective unconscious wouldn't ultimately be carried in the DNA?

... right? Or?
 
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Yes, by rights it should be a species-level decision, but our species won't be in a position to make it.

Im sure there will be "refusers", just like the Amish today refuse to use certain levels of technology.

Evolutionary process will take its course, if the refusers are less sucessful than the adopters, then they will die out and visa versa
 
The next logical step will be to have the "screen" feed directly into the optic nerve, no need for smart contact lenses. Likewise the WiFi of the time will connect directly with the brain, a true wireless BCI.
Wireless contact lens display now a reality | ExtremeTech
This system will likely be the first step in direct brain to brain data swapping aka the hive mind.

No thanks. I already spend too much of my time indoors sitting in front of a computer screen. I don't want to look at the world through a computer screen. Nor do I want to become a cog in a hive mind. Really, I don't know what you see in these ideas.

Then like the Amish you can opt out.

But for many it will be an advantage, in much the same way computer literacy is an advantage in todays world
 
So why am i keen on this stuff ?

Well, i find the idea of digital immortality attractive, if it can be done in the manner i envisage, seamlessly so that the mind file doesnt even notice the transition then whats not to love ? the possibilitys for this mindfile once freed of the biological limitations are huge, and to me exciting.

And i find the idea of being able to access not just data downloads, but actual experiential downloads very appealing.

The ability to spend a day "virtually" walking a mile in someone elses shoes excites me.

Ive always loved books and librarys, this is just the same just at a deeper more integrated level
 
So, yes, humans carry with them a lot of innate information in the structure of their body-brains — the collective unconscious. Information that is ultimately carried in our DNA.

Do I understand this correctly, that that likely wouldn't be so?

Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain – Pharyngula

"See that sentence I put in red up there? That’s his fundamental premise, and it is utterly false. Kurzweil knows nothing about how the brain works. It’s design is not encoded in the genome:

what’s in the genome is a collection of molecular tools wrapped up in bits of conditional logic, the regulatory part of the genome, that makes cells responsive to interactions with a complex environment. The brain unfolds during development, by means of essential cell:cell interactions, of which we understand only a tiny fraction. The end result is a brain that is much, much more than simply the sum of the nucleotides that encode a few thousand proteins.

We cannot derive the brain from the protein sequences underlying it; the sequences are insufficient, as well, because the nature of their expression is dependent on the environment and the history of a few hundred billion cells, each plugging along interdependently."

So the collective unconscious wouldn't ultimately be carried in the DNA?

... right? Or?

So the collective unconscious wouldn't ultimately be carried in the DNA?
... right? Or?


I think that's right, that it wouldn't be. Genetic memory that enables the biological reproduction of existing species is another matter. By contrast, the subconscious and collective unconsciousness preserve memory of experiences, apparently over great lengths of time.
 
@Pharoah 's HCT model addresses this. Starting from elementary particles onward, all that exists must be tuned to the environment in which it exists, otherwise it will cease to exist.

The physical structure of any object therefore — as far as it is tuned to its environment — embodies information about the environment.

Thus, say, aliens might be able to discern a lot of information about the environmental niche of a crocodile just by examining its body and behaviors.

So, yes, humans carry with them a lot of innate information in the structure of their body-brains — the collective unconscious. Information that is ultimately carried in our DNA.

The idea that a human "mind" could be uploaded into a non-humanoid body and remain sane is dubious. A human mind would require human sensory input, including internal sensations. In the absense of human sensory input, I imagine a human mind would go insane. (This is one reason I also question the paranormal concept of disincarnate minds that nevertheless appear to have access to sensory input in the absense of a human body.)

Having said all that, there does seem to be a sense though in which the mind is able to transcend the body. There is something about human imagination and creativity that seems to transcend the physical body and its experiences.

The physical structure of any object therefore — as far as it is tuned to its environment — embodies information about the environment.
Thus, say, aliens might be able to discern a lot of information about the environmental niche of a crocodile just by examining its body and behaviors.

Would this work? I'm not sure this would work - I bet even a human biologist would have a tough time matching an unfamiliar animal to its environment? - look at the varied adaptations to the same environment - and the point you are making implies the aliens have no knowledge of the environment - suppose they came from a waterless world?

The environment also includes other animals, behaviors are tied to the environment - an animal in a zoo behaves very differently (the crocodile eats every day at 2pm) and social behavior requires others of its kind - maybe a lot of others ...

That makes the jump to here:

So, yes, humans carry with them a lot of innate information in the structure of their body-brains — the collective unconscious. Information that is ultimately carried in our DNA.

Even bigger.

Thinking too about the brain as "alien technology" article now .... even as humans and with our knowledge of hominid evolution ...

Second, unlike other organ systems, the brain does many things at once. The richness of our lives, from the four f’s to learning and language, runs through our brains. These multiple functions developed over evolutionary time, meaning that our evolutionary history has gifted us with an organ of cobbled contingency.

The upshot is that even if we figure out something about the brain (per #1), it’s not immediately generalizable.

While one can expect evolutionary tinkering – modifications on existing functions – there is also the potential for engineering different solutions to the many problems we need to solve every day.
For interdisciplinary efforts in brain science, including endeavors like neuroanthropology and cultural neuroscience, these two issues highlight an interesting problem. If there is not just one way the brain works, not one code (like DNA) that will unlock the brain’s mystery box, then we are in a situation where many people will develop partial answers. However, those answers are tentative, and there is no clear framework for integrating them. Put differently, we are dealing with a normal academic situation – multiple fields with multiple truths.
 
Im sure there will be "refusers", just like the Amish today refuse to use certain levels of technology.

That doesn't respond to the question whether a majority of our species -- if they were made familiar with the massive social and life changes and environmental risks involved -- would agree with the AI program, or with genetic engineering and nanotechnology as already being implemented.

Of course they won't be informed or consulted given the economic power structure of the world we are living in. That doesn't make it acceptable. In fact that's part of the problem
 
That doesn't respond to the question whether a majority of our species -- if they were made familiar with the massive social and life changes and environmental risks involved -- would agree with the AI program, or with genetic engineering and nanotechnology as already being implemented.

Of course they won't be informed or consulted given the economic power structure of the world we are living in. That doesn't make it acceptable. In fact that's part of the problem

Yes but thats true of all evolutionary process's
 
Yes but thats true of all evolutionary process's

AI is not an evolutionary process, no matter how many times AI enthusiasts use the word 'evolution' to describe it. This is an elective engineering process, in large part funded by for-profit corporations.
 
Im sure there will be "refusers", just like the Amish today refuse to use certain levels of technology.

Evolutionary process will take its course, if the refusers are less sucessful than the adopters, then they will die out and visa versa

Die out? We started with opt-out and now we have die out ... when did we get to die-out?

The Amish didn't die out and I doubt they will any time soon. So why would those who "opt-out" ... die out? Because this is a very different situation.

We have a technology here that can be very attractive ... immortality and libraries ... but it's also a technology that:

might be composed of nano-bots and can reconfigured in any form
is not only immortal but instantly adapts to any change in environment (ie is invulnerable)
seems, for you, to lead to a kind of hive-mind, but for others ... to a kind of super individuality even godlike status ...

So how is the technology limited in scope? Who gets it and how? Who gets immortality and godlike power? And how? (we know the answers)

But ignore that - what's the model for getting this into your hands, as a consumer? Is this something you will buy from Amazon ... set up with your medical provider? Does insurance cover this? Is a manufacturer going to sell you a product that doesn't need repairs or upgrades? It seems to me this is going to be very expensive stuff! And by magnifying all the abilities of the person uploaded, upgraded, vs those who don't choose to not adopt, but can't afford to ... then the kind of equality you speak for on other threads is going to be a joke. People will upgrade/upload their dogs while others literally starve.

Anyway, this is big technology and the biggest technologies are owned by governments and military. I just watched Iron Man II last night ... it's pretty unrealistic that the government let Tony Stark keep a suit capable of maintaining world peace as private property for fiver years ... and what is described in Transhumanism makes Iron Man look ... well, limited.
 
Here it is: Pharyngula ... Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain ... If you’re an acolyte of Kurzweil, you’ve been bamboozled. He’s a kook."
That appears to be little more than a rant focused on a technicality that was probably taken out of context. In his "How To Create A Mind talk on TED, Kurzweil says, I've been very consistent in predicting 2029 as the point in where computers will match human intelligence." That isn't the same as "reverse engineering the brain", but it goes to show that there's obviously more to the picture when it comes to Kurzweil than the author of the rant is telling us. I've read some Kurzweil, and although he may be somewhat over optimistic, I'd hardly put him in the "kook" category, and he has had a fairly good, though not perfect track record. The man is very intelligent and a visionary.
 
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Yes but thats true of all evolutionary process's

Then why come out for equality like you have on other threads in this forum? That's also an evolutionary process as you have defined it.

I also don't really believe this technology is going to be used primarily to re-live other people's lives virtually.

What this technology is, what it does, is make gods.

What kind of gods will we make? Looking at the kinds we've already made ... I'm a little worried. I'd say give it to the Buddhists first ... but they would have none of it. They've actually explored the implications of this kind of technology pretty thoroughly.
 
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