The 1945 Trinity UFO Story... Crashes

[George Wingfield]

Thank you, Gene, for your patience. Before saying more I feel it very necessary to say this :—

This dispute has inevitably become a battle between the UFO Skeptics and the UFO/Alien Believers who will both find compelling evidence to support their respective cases. As regards the August 1945 alleged UFO Crash/Retrieval at the Trinity Nuclear Test Site, the UFO/Alien Believers will say the story told by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca clearly states the crashed craft contained living hombrecitos which must have been extraterrestrial alien creatures. For the very same reason the UFO Skeptics will say that the claim that the craft contained ET aliens proves the story must be untrue, or else was a hoax, since —as we all know— there simply aren’t ET aliens visiting this planet.
My thesis is that both sides have made a false assumption as regards alleged ET aliens in the crashed craft. I say the hombrecitos described by Jose Padilla were NOT ET aliens at all and I can provide a very plausible alternative explanation as to what they really were. May I proceed to do that on this forum with two more postings? (I can’t guarantee that everyone will be pleased with what I say, but it will certainly explain what this apparent crash landing of a US military aircraft most probably was.)

 

[George Wingfield]

In order to understand the vital role played by Alamogordo Army Air Field at the time of the Trinity Atomic Bomb test of July 16th 1945 and a month later when an alleged UFO containing three hombrecitos crash landed within about 16 miles of Trinity Ground Zero we need to look carefully at the mission of what was later known as the Aero-Medical Field Laboratory at Alamogordo.

I suggest that the Trinity “UFO” which crashed on August 16th was in fact an US Army military glider from Alamogordo Army Air Field and had absolutely nothing to do with extraterrestrial aliens. I intend to show exactly what type of aircraft this was and who the occupants were. When I’ve finished presenting the evidence I hope that the skeptics who claim this case was either a hoax or else the whole story told by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca was a fiction to concede that they were mistaken.

The airfield 6 miles west of Alamogordo, New Mexico, was constructed in 1942 and when completed was established as an US Army Airfield. It was in control of the Alamogordo Bombing Range (later called the White Sands Missile Range) which ran about 75 miles north from Alamogordo. Near the northern end of the range stood a tall radio transmission tower which the Trinity “UFO” supposedly hit before it crash landed 1 – 2 miles away.

In July 1945, Operation Trinity, the test detonation of the world's first atomic weapon, took place in the northern sector of the Alamogordo Bombing Range. To cover up, the Alamogordo Army Air Field issued a press release noting that an ammunition dump had exploded in an accident which caused no injuries. The atomic test remained a secret until after the destruction of Hiroshima, Japan on August 6th 1945.

After the formation of the United States Air Force in September 1947, it was renamed the Holloman Air Force Base in January 1948, and it grew to encompass the White Sands Proving Ground (later New Mexico Joint Guided Missile Test Range, and then White Sands Missile Range). Under the USAF, it hosted a variety of units including tactical fighter wings, missile research groups, foreign (German and British) training units, and the Aero-Medical Field Laboratory which launched a chimpanzee named Ham into suborbital flight.

The Army Medical researchers were tasked with finding out the effects of forces and the high altitude environment on pilots (and later astronauts) who were to fly high performance jets or rocket craft. In the early days it was not so much a question of enduring high G forces or zero gravity as it was one of survivability. Could pilots survive flight at high altitude without pressure suits or suitable oxygen equipment? Could they withstand the G force involved in high speed maneuvers or in ejection from advanced jet aircraft? These things would require volunteers who knew how dangerous such testing might be.

USAF officer Colonel John Stapp made headlines on December 10th 1954 at Holloman AFB when he set a land speed record of 634 mph in a rocket sled along a rail track during five seconds of huge acceleration which subjected him to a force of 20Gs. Although bruised and badly shaken he survived the ordeal without permanent injury. His previous assignments included flights testing various oxygen systems in unpressurized aircraft at 40,000 ft. This flight surgeon, physician and biophysicist was a pioneer in aviation medicine and a friend of Chuck Yeager, the pilot who was the first man to fly faster than the speed of sound (over Edward’s AFB, California).

Another hero from Holloman AFB was the chimpanzee Ham who survived a suborbital space flight on January 31st 1961. He is seen here (aged 3 years) wearing his spacesuit shortly before being launched from Cape Canaveral. His flight was for 16 minutes and 39 seconds taking him to a height of 150 miles though the intention had only been to reach 115 miles. One of the reasons a chimpanzee was chosen for the mission was because of their many similarities to humans. The results from his test flight led directly to the first US suborbital space flight by Alan Shepard on May 5th 1961.

8

Ham’s name is an acronym for the laboratory that prepared him for his historic mission —the Holloman Aerospace Medical Center at Holloman AFB in New Mexico. His name was also in honor of the Commander of Holloman Aeromedical Laboratory, Colonel Hamilton “Ham” Blackshear. Officially Ham was known as No. 65 before his flight and only renamed “Ham” upon his successful return to Earth. This was reportedly because officials did not want the bad press that would come from the death of a “named” chimpanzee if the mission failed.

So, with the dawn of the era of atomic weapons when the first atomic bomb was detonated at Trinity, New Mexico, on July 16th 1945, what new mission was the Aero-Medical Field Laboratory at Alamogordo Army Air Field tasked with? One can only assume that they would be asked to research what protective measures against nuclear radiation and nuclear fallout affecting pilots, air crews and airborne troops would be needed. If an airplane flew through an atomic cloud resulting from an atomic bomb just dropped on the enemy below, what protective clothing for air crews would be effective? If troops were to be landed in areas recently devastated by atomic bombing would their airplanes need special radiation shielding and would they require protective clothing before and after exiting from their aircraft? If so, would it prove effective and allow them to operate normally? These were all questions that military commanders needed to know.

I suggest that the “UFO” crash landing at Trinity on August 16th 1945 was the first such exercise carried out from Alamogordo Army Air Field to find solutions to the problem of airmen surviving radiation and that it went badly wrong but not because of the radiation. I will suggest soon exactly what sort of aircraft it was that crash landed and who were the three passengers in it who perished.

In his book Trinity: The Best-Kept Secret with Paola Harris, Jacques Vallée asks (p. 153) the questions “What if the object was designed to crash? What if the lives of the creatures aboard were expendable? Yes, indeed! There Jacques Vallée puts his finger on what this case is all about.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Too bad neither Harris or Vallee will address the issue.

 

[Sentry]

The amount of false material presented in the Trinity story is staggering. Let's say that the boys really saw something and at least part of their story is true. Problem is, the inaccurate or untrue material is the only interesting part and the witnesses actively tried to sell the tale as a UFO story to the highest bidder.
Even giving them the benefit of the doubt, the baloney content is just too high. Trinity merits no attention as a genuine historical event.

 

[George Wingfield]

I disagree entirely. Jacques Vallée has researched this case on the ground at the Trinity site and has come up with objects and material that clearly show something did crash there in 1945. None of the metal pieces such as the Silumin bracket give any indication of anything other than a terrestrial origin so there’s nothing to prove the “UFO” was of ET origin or that it’s occupants were ET aliens. The two witnesses, Jose Padilla and Reme Baca, who were mere kids at the time never thought of it in terms of an ET visitation until maybe 25-40 years later when researchers like Stanton Friedman, Jacques Vallée, Bill Moore, Linda Howe, Kevin Randle, Budd Hopkins, etc., etc., were all telling us that Roswell was the crash of a genuine UFO.
Anyway, I believe I can explain just what sort of US military aircraft it was that crash-landed at the Trinity nuclear test site in 1945 and just who the hombrecitos seen by Padilla and Baca must have been. No ET aliens were involved in any way!

Bear with me and I will reply again in a few days time. (It’s the start of the Glastonbury Festival right now so I’m rather busy!)

 

[George Wingfield]

Gene and Curt,

Now that Glastonbury is finished I hope I can resume stating reasons for believing the Trinity UFO case of August 1945 was not a hoax or merely a fictional story dreamed up by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca to fool UFO researchers and make money. There are some very good reasons for thinking that some aerial vehicle did indeed crash land at the Trinity site and that it contained three non-human passengers —even if they were not extraterrestrials from some remote spot in the cosmos. Do you see where I am going with this? One clue is the chimpanzee Ham who was shown in my earlier posting.
First I should say that explanation of UFO mysteries like this are usually sharply divided between the UFO/alien true believers and the UFO skeptics. The believers will always suggest an ET connection and the skeptics will have absolutely none of it. The latter know there are no such things as aliens who are visiting this planet and, therefore, any such claim must be rubbish or outright lies and falsification. The fallacies that can result from such diametrically opposed approaches usually arise because neither side can see that any alternative explanation is possible. A third perspective can sometimes provide the true solution and I suggest that a third perspective is the real answer to the extraordinary Trinity UFO crash case of August 1945.
UFO pundit Kevin Randle has already pronounced this case is false. He says it is a hoax or a completely fictitious story made up by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca. No UFO or aircraft crashed at the Trinity site in August 1945 and Jacques Vallée’s research there with Paola Harris, he implies, is shoddy and worthless. They are fools to accept anything Padilla and Baca told them. Case closed, and no further discussion will be allowed.
Randle is wrong, and there is much more that needs to be said. Thank goodness for The Paracast where freedom of discussion on these matters is still allowed. Tomorrow I will suggest exactly what sort of an aircraft crash-landed at Trinity in August 1945 and just what its mission was. Whether you are a UFO skeptic or a UFO/alien believer you may have to concede —in this particular case— that I have the right answer.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Speaking of Randle, he will be back on The Paracast in late July. I'll post an update before the recording session so you can ask questions.

 

[George Wingfield]

To understand what I believe is the true explanation for the Trinity “UFO” Crash/Retrieval of August 1945 one has to appreciate the role of the Alamogordo Army Air Field and its associated Aero-Medical Field Laboratory at the time of Trinity Atomic Bomb test. Alamogordo AAF provided logistical support for the Trinity operation and controlled all flying over the area where the atomic bomb was detonated. It also issued the false statement informing the public that the huge nuclear explosion had simply been the accidental explosion of an ammunition dump on its Alamogordo Bombing Range.
When the Trinity Atomic Bomb detonation proved a success rather than a fizzle as some scientists had anticipated, the next requirement for this Army base was was to prepare methods for delivering troops and equipment into battle zones that had been bombed and were still potentially radioactive. Since the USAAF had no suitable military helicopters at that time US troops invading Japan from the air would need to use military gliders as had already been used in other theaters of war in Europe during World War II. The most commonly used variety of such a military glider was the Waco CG-4A and its mission was usually a one-way flight ending in a controlled crash landing in a war zone. This aircraft could deliver 13 fully-equipped soldiers or else a lesser number together with, say, an armored vehicle or field guns and other military equipment.
In 1945 little was known regarding any atomic radiation effects in the battlefield or else the effects of atomic fallout on humans in contact with it. Protective suits and cabin shielding for airmen and paratroopers would therefore have been mainly designed to withstand the blinding flash and ensuing heat blast from an atomic bomb —rather than ionizing and non-ionizing radiation from its detonation. In theory this is what any “volunteers” might be subjected to if they took part in such aero-medical research. The test flight of a military glider into the Trinity Atomic Test Area with volunteer passengers in it would likely be very hazardous anyway and chances of surviving the intended crash-landing of such an aircraft could be, say, less than 10%. So who were going to be a volunteers?
It seems the choice of the experts at Alamogordo Army Air Field in 1945 (or perhaps even a few years earlier) was . . . chimpanzees. These are wonderful laboratory test animals and they are the closest kind of mammal to human beings. They have a similarity to humans as regards the placement of organs in the body and humans and chimps share a surprising 98.8 % of their DNA. Not that the genetic role and structure of DNA would become known for another ten years! Chimps are usually fairly docile and agreeable and they are unlikely to object if “volunteered” for a dangerous mission which they are unable to comprehend. Moreover, since they cannot verbalize they would never be able to give the game away to an enemy!
How do we know this? Mainly because of a chimpanzee called Ham who survived a suborbital mission on top of a Redstone rocket from Cape Canaveral on January 31st 1961. He was the precursor of America’s first man-in-space, Alan Shepard, whose suborbital flight was on May 5th 1961. What I had never realized was that Ham was kept and trained by the Aero-Medical Field Lab at Holloman AFB. Before the time of Ham’s flight there were 40 chimpanzee flight candidates kept at this aero-medical field lab near Alamogordo. Ham was selected as the best performer.
When Ham flew into space in January 1961 he was three and a half years old. Despite being a fairly young chimp he had had 18 months of rigorous training under his belt prior to the flight. Officially known as No. 65 before the flight he was renamed Ham after its successful return to Earth. This was reportedly because officials did not want the bad press that might have resulted from the death of a “named” chimpanzee if the mission had gone wrong. My previously posted picture of Ham shows him wearing a vest or flying jacket maybe similar to that worn by the hombrecitos seen by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca. Obviously they weren’t wearing flying helmets —unless perhaps they had come off in the crash.
The Trinity hombrecitos must have been between three and four feet tall, perhaps a little smaller in height than Jose or Reme who were then aged 9 and 7. That would also have been the approximate height of Ham when aged 3 years. So, we should consider what the two young boys out in the New Mexico desert in August 1945 would make of the small non-human hombrecitos they saw inside the crash wreck dressed apparently in some kind of vests or spacesuits. Would anyone you know have imagined then these were chimpanzees being used as “volunteers” in tests to see if they could survive being flown and crash-landed into a nuclear test zone? The honest answer is not one person in a million would guess the truth!
Next I will show why the crashed “UFO” at The Trinity site in 1945 looked exactly like the wreck of a CG-4A military glider.

 

[Trajanus]

It seems the choice of the experts at Alamogordo Army Air Field in 1945 (or perhaps even a few years earlier) was . . . chimpanzees. These are wonderful laboratory test animals and they are the closest kind of mammal to human beings. They have a similarity to humans as regards the placement of organs in the body and humans and chimps share a surprising 98.8 % of their DNA.

Nevertheless the outward appearance of a chimp is markedly different from a human and easy to recognize.

How do we know this? Mainly because of a chimpanzee called Ham who survived a suborbital mission on top of a Redstone rocket from Cape Canaveral on January 31st 1961.

Shouldn't we expect similar documentation for use of a chimp in '45, had this occurred? Surely it wouldn't still be top secret after all these years. Or even if it were lost isn't there any actual evidence, like witnesses (first or second hand?).

So, we should consider what the two young boys out in the New Mexico desert in August 1945 would make of the small non-human hombrecitos they saw inside the crash wreck dressed apparently in some kind of vests or spacesuits. Would anyone you know have imagined then these were chimpanzees being used as “volunteers” in tests to see if they could survive being flown and crash-landed into a nuclear test zone? The honest answer is not one person in a million would guess the truth

Assuming the bodies weren't burned as a glider doesn't have fuel, the chimps should've retained their usual appearance, hence should've been recognized for what they were despite the unusual circumstances. IIRC the alleged witnesses claimed to have seen bodies resembling those found at Roswell. Btw what the hell were those kids doing in a(n alleged) test area??

 

[George Wingfield]

I think any flight testing which involved sending living test animals into the Trinity Atomic Test Area would not have been made public and would never have become accessible through FOIA years later even if such tests had been successful. You ask what we’re those kids doing within such a test area anyway? They lived there — within 20 miles of the Trinity Atomic Bomb Ground Zero and when that Atomic Bomb was detonated a month earlier the authorities gave the ranchers and inhabitants of the sparsely populated area no warning at all. In fact the military announced as a cover story that an ammunition dump on the Alamogordo Bombing Range had accidentally exploded. Not true of course —and unthinkable today. But this was 1945 and what the military did was simply not publicly announced then. That is, until the announcement was made of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6th and August 9th 1945.

 

[Trajanus]

I think any flight testing which involved sending living test animals into the Trinity Atomic Test Area would not have been made public and would never have become accessible through FOIA years later even if such tests had been successful.

If people had been used for testing I'd concur but animals were deemed expendable. There should the some documentation available. And I don't think any witness with normal intelligence, even a kid, would fail to recognize a chimp (or think it was an alien).

 

[George Wingfield]

In the USA during the 1920s chimpanzees were first used for medical and behavioral research. In the early 1950s the US Air Force and NASA captured 65 wild chimpanzees from Africa for use in early space research and testing. The 65 young chimpanzees were to be used in military flight experiments at Holloman AFB near Alamogordo in New Mexico. The descendants of these chimps were later used in infectious disease experiments and high-velocity airplane seat-belt tests. There are good reasons to believe that the first aero-medical experiments with chimps at Alamogordo Army Air Field were actually carried out before the end of World War II and this supports the thesis that such lab-test chimps were those being used as test animals in the military glider “UFO” crash at the Trinity Atomic Test Site in August 1945.

If this is correct, the three chimps later described by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca as hombrecitos must have first been loaded into the secure cabin of a military glider at Alamogordo AAF on August 16, 1945. This glider would then have been towed into the air by a C-45/C-47 transport aircraft or maybe a B-25 Mitchell bomber. It would next have been towed 60 miles north to the vicinity of the Trinity site. Unlike the towing aircraft the glider with the chimpanzees was not piloted and its controls would have been fixed for straight and level flight.

Before the glider’s towline was cast off the pilot of the towing aircraft would have had to line up its direction of flight and also ensure that its speed and altitude were just right for it to crash-land on the intended area of flat ground within the Trinity site. In order to direct its straight glide path towards the landing site the towing aircraft pilot would most likely have used the ‘Marconi’ radio tower as a marker in an otherwise featureless desert landscape. When in correct alignment the glider tow line would have been detached.

From all we know and from what Jose Padilla and Reme Baca have told us the “UFO” —which I suggest was a military glider— hit the Marconi tower severely damaging it and cutting off its radio transmission. The two boys never saw this “UFO” in the air but say they saw a flash and heard a loud sound they later described as a “sonic boom”. Whether the sound was that of the UFO hitting the tower or of it crash landing a few seconds later is not clear. In any case its forward momentum carried it about a further half mile before it crash landed.

The square-plan Marconi radio tower, built on a hill, was 100 feet high or possibly taller. The glider’s accidental collision with it may have been because the tow-plane pilot had misjudged the release point or because he thought he was at a rather higher altitude so that no collision was possible. In any case Alamogordo AAF would have known immediately when the tower ceased transmitting and they probably guessed the glider had hit the tower and crashed. Jose Padilla recalls an airplane circling around the area soon afterwards and this was very likely the B-25 piloted by an AAF airman called Col. Brophy. It is even possible this B-25 was the towing aircraft and that Brophy was looking down at the ground to see what had become of the crashed military glider. The proponents of a UFO crash scenario say, of course, he had been sent out from Alamogordo to find what had happened to their radio tower —as if they didn’t know what hit it.

There has been speculation that the cause of the crash was due to it being struck by lightning but although there had been a thunderstorm that day, as is very usual in the summer in New Mexico, there was no storm there when the UFO struck the radio tower. The collision may have torn off the craft’s wing or part of it but its momentum carried it on to a crash landing but not in the intended place. Where it came down leaving a long gash in the ground was on rough terrain which was anything but flat and almost certainly broke off one or both its wings before it skidded to a halt.

Just such a gash in the ground would typically be left in the soil by the landing of a heavy CG-4A military glider which might slide for 300 feet or more before coming to a halt. The object which crash landed at Trinity left an L-shaped gash at least this long according to Padilla and Baca. The reason it was L-shaped seems to have been because it struck a boulder or rocky outcrop at some point and this deflected it from its straight course. The rock also appears to be what ripped a hole in the side of the craft before it came to rest. It was through this hole that the two boys saw the three hombrecitos inside from a distance of about 200 to 300 ft. They appeared to be in a state of agitation, running about inside and emitting squeaking noises (though Baca says these were squeals of pain). That sounds exactly like what one might expect chimpanzees to do if they had just been subjected to a horrific crash landing.

The boys never entered the craft and nor were the hombrecitos known to have ventured out from it. Two days later when Jose’s father Faustino Padilla and a New Mexico State Trooper, Eddie Apodaca, were taken to the craft by the boys and went inside it —without the boys— they came back out looking very grim. They did not say the creatures were dead but it seems very likely they were. A few days later it was claimed the craft’s cabin was completely empty and the hombrecitos, dead or alive, had gone. Whether or not the Army recovery crew took them away or buried their bodies at the site is unknown.

 

[George Wingfield]

One reason for believing the Trinity UFO was in fact a Waco or Robertson CG-4A military glider is because its flight and crash landing followed a similar descent to that sort of craft. Besides that, its size and shape when it came to rest without any wings or tailplane sound very similar to what a CG-4A would have looked like.
The CG-4A military was used extensively in World War II but there were many fatalities experienced when trying to send troops into battle this way. One or both wings were often torn off when attempting to crash land a CG-4A glider on ground that was uneven. Sometimes a CG-4A wing would just break off in the air. On August 1st 1943 at Lambert Field, St Louis, MO, a wing simply broke off a CG-4A military glider that was being flown as a demonstration flight in front of an estimated 10,000 horrified spectators. Among the ten people killed when the glider plunged 1,500 ft to the ground was the then Mayor of St Louis. Attached is a press clipping about this story. At least two other cases of wings falling off CG-4A gliders in flight are reported at: NWWIIGPA-St Louis glider Crash



Above is a picture of a CG-4A military glider in flight and also one of it on the ground. What I believe is the clincher that a CG-4A glider was the “UFO” which crashed landed in the Trinity Atomic Test Site on August 16 1945 is the description of it given by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca: the wrecked forward part of the crashed craft looked (from the side) like an avocado —or squashed avocado. They estimated it to be 14 feet high and it tapered towards its tail end. If one were to remove the wing and tailplane from the CG-4A seen in the accompanying photo it would indeed look like an avocado from the side and its height is also about 14 ft. The avocado shape of the wrecked UFO is mentioned several times in the Trinity book although Jose Padilla’s drawing of it looks more like a fat banana.
On page 153 of Trinity: The Best-Kept Secret Jacques Vallée asks “What if the object was designed to crash?” and “What if the lives of the creatures aboard were expendable?”. This is obviously the prime “what-if” question that anyone who has researched this strange case in detail and heard the testimony of Jose Padilla must keep asking themself. I believe the hombrecitos in the crashed “UFO” really were expendable test animals that had been flown there from the Army Air Force base at Alamogordo.

[The claim that they looked like campamocha (praying mantises) or “insectoids” which later featured in UFO/alien abduction lore may well have been added by Reme Baca to make his story more saleable to UFO/alien believers. Likewise Baca’s suggestion the hombrecitos had “big, bulgy eyes” and looked like “Greys” sounds like tidbits of alien myth. He may have embellished such details to convince Tom Carey who is a well-known Roswell alien believer and repeated these details to Paola Harris at a later date.
As for the silumin bracket and other bits of metal discovered at the crash site, I’m prepared to bet these might be identifiable if one were to ask some of the men who once worked in the companies involved in the manufacture of CG-4A military gliders (see Wikipedia article on Waco CG-4).]

 

[George Wingfield]

The kids who saw the hombrecitos never thought of them as being aliens until years later when the Roswell UFO Crash had been accepted by many as evidence of alien visitation. It was then that Jose Padilla realized their experience in 1945 could have been an encounter with aliens and their story was potentially saleable to UFO researchers. Back in 1945 they had seen the hombrecitos from about 300 feet away and would not have recognized they might be chimps especially as they were dressed in “uniform” or “coveralls”. Even if the boys had known what chimpanzees looked like these creatures at a distance did not resemble chimpanzees —they looked like hombrecitos or little men.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Thanks for keeping this discussion knowing, especially since the authors of "Trinity" are still locked in their bunkers.

 

[Trajanus]

On page 153 of Trinity: The Best-Kept Secret Jacques Vallée asks “What if the object was designed to crash?” and “What if the lives of the creatures aboard were expendable?”.

This is exactly what one work, The Alien Grand Design, says about Roswell. Strange that Vallee spoke of these possibilities in regards to a more dubious case….

[The claim that they looked like campamocha (praying mantises) or “insectoids” which later featured in UFO/alien abduction lore may well have been added by Reme Baca to make his story more saleable to UFO/alien believers. Likewise Baca’s suggestion the hombrecitos had “big, bulgy eyes” and looked like “Greys” sounds like tidbits of alien myth. He may have embellished such details to convince Tom Carey who is a well-known Roswell alien believer and repeated these details to Paola Harris at a later date.

There are two possibilities. Baca has no credibility or he saw something quite unlike chimps. I think it's most likely he, like a number of others (under government direction) made up a UFO crash story, in part to divert attention from Roswell, or perhaps sully crash stories generally. Btw I don't dismiss reports of grays as "myth."

 

[Trajanus]

Back in 1945 they had seen the hombrecitos from about 300 feet away and would not have recognized they might be chimps especially as they were dressed in “uniform” or “coveralls”. Even if the boys had known what chimpanzees looked like these creatures at a distance did not resemble chimpanzees —they looked like hombrecitos or little men.

Assuming their eyesight was good they should've seen they were hairy and any kid their age would've known what a monkey was, even if that technically wasn't the same as a chimp. Note the pic upthread; you can easily see the arms, legs and head are hairy. I know a NASA uniform wasn't necessarily the same as one in '45 but dunno why it would be different. This was August so you don't want them to get too hot with coveralls...
Again there is, to my knowledge, absolutely no corroboration for this chimp theory. No official documents, no diary entries no witness testimony. Since chimps were being expended in a number of ways there's no reason this would remain totally covered up after several decades….

 

[George Wingfield]

Speaking of Randle, he will be back on The Paracast in late July. I'll post an update before the recording session so you can ask questions.

Gene,

On June 18th 2023 Kevin Randle wrote on his blogsite as follows:- Well, my thesis is that the San Antonio crash story is hoax. Therefore there were no aliens at a non-existent crash site and further discussion about what [to] see there is irrelevant because the story was the invention of two men. There was no crash landing of a US military aircraft because the story was a hoax. The Tom Carey tape of Baca pretty well sinks this tale and it should join the ranks of other great UFO hoaxes like MJ-12 and the alien autopsy.

Well, I say that Randle is wrong —as he has often been before. There is plenty of evidence there was a crash landing of a US military aircraft at the San Antonio/Trinity site and there are compelling reasons to believe that the hombrecitos inside it seen by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca were 3 expendable experimental test animals, namely chimpanzees from Alamogordo AAF, as I have explained in earlier postings. The only point in Kevin’s favor is that he was correct in saying any claim that this was a UFO alien spaceship with three little aliens on board was spurious.

When you talk to Kevin Randle on The Paracast later this month you might also remind him of another occasion eight years ago when he got things utterly wrong. This was because he chose to believe all he was told about the notorious “Roswell Slides” hoax by the hoaxer himself —the self-proclaimed “World’s Greatest Ufologist” whose fake identity on the internet was “Anthony Bragalia”. He should never have believed anything from this deceiver or from John Lundberg, Rob Irving and Philip Mantle who helped create the fake persona.

Just in case you have forgotten the ludicrous Roswell Slides hoax and those who were behind it, I’m appending my analysis of the hoax which I wrote back in 2015.

 

[George Wingfield]

Assuming their eyesight was good they should've seen they were hairy and any kid their age would've known what a monkey was, even if that technically wasn't the same as a chimp. Note the pic upthread; you can easily see the arms, legs and head are hairy. I know a NASA uniform wasn't necessarily the same as one in '45 but dunno why it would be different. This was August so you don't want them to get too hot with coveralls...
Again there is, to my knowledge, absolutely no corroboration for this chimp theory. No official documents, no diary entries no witness testimony. Since chimps were being expended in a number of ways there's no reason this would remain totally covered up after several decades….

Of course there isn’t any corrobation for the chimp theory as no one has ever suggested it before I did. Remember that FOIA only came into being in 2000, some 55 years after all this. It is highly unlikely any paper trail still exists which would show that chimpanzees from Alamogordo were used in flight test experiments in 1945. Military commanders back then would have had no compunction about dumping the paperwork on such activity especially if the experiments had been unsuccessful.
In the early 1950s the Aero-Medical Field Laboratory at Holloman AFB, Alamogordo, ordered 65 chimpanzees for experimental use there in their aero-medical research. Do you think was just done on a whim? They almost certainly had carried out aero-medical experiments using chimps there several years before that and it is highly likely the “Trinity UFO Crash” was such a test.
Have you read Trinity: The Best-Kept Secret by Jacques Vallee and Paola Harris? I think few of those like Kevin Randle, who have utterly condemned it as a hoax or a fiction dreamed up by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca, have actually read the book. They have condemned it because they think that the very idea of extraterrestrial UFOs and aliens is outrageous and must be totally false. Maybe so, but I for one don’t believe this “UFO crash” was anything to do with aliens!
One other point is that Padilla and Baca (aged 9 and 7) were looking at the crashed craft from about 300 ft away. That’s the length of a football field and, even with binoculars, they wouldn’t have been able to see the creatures’ faces or facial features —like eyes— clearly. They say in the book there was smoke and dust in between them and the wrecked craft. This would have made it even less possible to see that the hombrecitos —running backwards and forwards inside, not outside, the wreck— were in fact chimps, especially as they were dressed in “coveralls”. I’m sure these two boys had no idea what these creatures were at the time and the suggestion they were little “aliens” was only put forward some forty years later by UFO researchers who interviewed them.

 

[Trajanus]

Of course there isn’t any corrobation for the chimp theory as no one has ever suggested it before I did. Remember that FOIA only came into being in 2000, some 55 years after all this. It is highly unlikely any paper trail still exists which would show that chimpanzees from Alamogordo were used in flight test experiments in 1945. Military commanders back then would have had no compunction about dumping the paperwork on such activity especially if the experiments had been unsuccessful.

I disagree. We know about what was ordered in the early '50s, which wasn't very much earlier than '45. If what you say happened actually did, there should be some corroboration, maybe an old diary. It's hard to believe there would be no documentary evidence (or witness testimony) whatsoever for use of chimps in '45. If there isn't, I don't think you have much of a case.

In the early 1950s the Aero-Medical Field Laboratory at Holloman AFB, Alamogordo, ordered 65 chimpanzees for experimental use there in their aero-medical research. Do you think was just done on a whim? They almost certainly had carried out aero-medical experiments using chimps there several years before that and it is highly likely the “Trinity UFO Crash” was such a test.

Hey, there's first time for everything. It needn't have been as far back as '45.

I think few of those like Kevin Randle, who have utterly condemned it as a hoax or a fiction dreamed up by Jose Padilla and Reme Baca, have actually read the book. They have condemned it because they think that the very idea of extraterrestrial UFOs and aliens is outrageous and must be totally false.

No, that's totally wrong. Randle does not oppose the idea of ETs. See the concluding sentence in his latest work on Roswell.

I’m sure these two boys had no idea what these creatures were at the time and the suggestion they were little “aliens” was only put forward some forty years later by UFO researchers who interviewed them.

But this contradicts what you wrote earlier in this thread. You said in effect that the two alleged witnesses made up the description of "big bulging eyes" etc to make their story salable to UFOlogists. Now you say the alien interpretation was the work of UFOlogists.