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The Ancients and Imagination

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but Krishna may have in fact been a real person but has had layers of myth pasted over him.

I always thought of Krishna as a humanized Vishnu. An example of the miracle-man archetype. Basically the same idea as Superman or Jesus -- a godman with a softspot for the people. Is there a group of folks who argue that he was deified real person? That'd be neat to read. Or, were you just speaking generally?
 
What's everyone think of the cryptozoological end?

Creatures like unicorns, dragons and thunderbirds depicted in ancient art and stories? Do you think these are based on actual experiences, are they modern misinerpretations of ancient communications of known animals or vice versa? Or, are they 100% imagination?
 
What's everyone think of the cryptozoological end?

Creatures like unicorns, dragons and thunderbirds depicted in ancient art and stories? Do you think these are based on actual experiences, are they modern misinerpretations of ancient communications of known animals or vice versa? Or, are they 100% imagination?

In my opinion they're probably a combination of known animals used for mythology/storytelling purposes. Kind of like a chimera. Human beings have always had a kind of visceral reaction to reptiles and they've also been used extensively in our stories and myths. What could be more frightening to primitive people than a giant, flying, fire breathing lizard? There's no hard evidence that anything like a dragon ever existed, but it's fun to speculate.
 
At the very least, they did it on their own but I don't rule out some Ancient Alien guidance/interaction along the way. If it's happening today, it's been happening all along. The key question is if aliens were so unambiguous in their interactions way back when, why did it change?

That's always been one of my problems with religious texts, not to move the topic into a discussion on religion (let's not do that, please) but just for comparisons sake: If aliens were running around building monuments and interacting with human beings in ancient times, what happened? Why the sudden stop? It reminds me of the Old Testament, back then if God spoke to you, you were a prophet, these days if you tell a doctor that God speaks to you, you're going to end up in an asylum, and the religious are the first to scoff at people who claim revelation. Same thing with aliens, and if anything I think we're more open to the idea of alien visitation than we've ever been before as a society, so why if they were so active back then do they stay so far away now? Why did the Gods (aliens or deities) abandon us? Is it us or is it them? It's an interesting question to be sure, whether it has any basis in reality or not.
 
Spot on Goggs! Have you ever read "Forbidden Archeology"? I don't agree with everything in it, but it does put the falsehoods of the archeology world in a spotlight.

Not read it but I do think Michael Cremo can be taken a lot more seriously than Von Daniken or Tsooookalisisalooka (sorry, can't be bothered finding out how to spell Georgey-boy's name, even though it would have been quicker than writing this sentence to explain that:D)

In fact it's a book on my 'must get sometime' list. I expect there is a decent amount of stuff in their that is based partly in fact. That's quite a generous thing to say given how badly some stuff in AA let's down the whole 'hidden history' type research.

It's the stand-out out-of-place-artefacts that really get me going. Some of them are just mind-blowing. Now, I don't obviously know the providence of some of those items but the lack of debunking on some of them is pretty lacking - like no-one wants to touch the subject with a bargepole lest they cannot debunk!
 
What could be more frightening than a giant, flying, fire breathing lizard?

Fire breathing is interesting. I guess, at the time they were conceived, fire was a pretty devistating and badass weapon. Giving them fire for breath made them pretty tough.

If you look at the dragon in Eastern culture, fire-breathing doesn't really come up. Chinese dragons (lahng)were good guys, associated with water and thunder. They usually depicted playing with pearls or lightening of various types. They scared away evil spirits, like gargoyles.

It was always interesting to me that two very similar creatures (it's arguable that the two concepts are so different that calling the chinese version "dragons" was linguistically inappropriate on the part of the first folks who did so -- some relevant people think that "lahng" might actually represent the sound that thunder makes) were envisioned so differently by the two old-world cultures.

The idea of translation association has been interesting to me, for a while, when it comes to myth. People will say "there are dragons in every culture," but that's not really that true. There are big ass reptiles and snakes in every culture where snakes and reptiles can be found, but they're all extremely different creations that were just called dragons because of their reptilian association.
 
Yeah, I like the wandjina. The only thing that makes them less compelling, for myself, is the fact that they are regularly repainted by new generations. What could have started out as a vague, large eyed concept could have been steered more toward the classic "alien" concept due to external influence. The depiction of the figures has changed over time.

I think thats a long bow to stretch tbh

The grey alien meme does go back a ways

German Reports Saucer Manned By Little Men <br/><span style="font-size:x-small">10-10-1954 </span>

But i think the idea what we are seeing today in the wandjina paintings have morphed into that meme is unlikely, the artists are only in recent times likely to have internet access and other modern forms of communication.
That newspaper article from 1954 for example would not have been read by any of them.

The skin colour of the depictions is also worth noting, when you consider they had not seen a white man until just over 200 years ago.

Who has the right to make Wandjina imagery?

Although there is a wealth of ethnographic data to attest to the practice of repainting of Wandjina and other rock art within rock shelters, contemporary repainting has met with considerable controversy. For example, when in 1987 a group of Ngarinyin people from the western Kimberley repainted some of the rock art sites in the Gibb River area, a longstanding public debate ensued. The repainting was done by young men and women from the western Kimberley who were engaged on an Australian Federal Government employment scheme. The debate is briefly touched on here as it has strong contemporary resonances, revolving around ownership of Indigenous imagery and who has the right to reproduce it.[42] In brief, critics of the Ngarinyin repainting argued that it was not undertaken in a traditional context, was not executed by the appropriate aged and gendered members of the community, involved the use of non-traditional materials and did not conform to traditional style. The most vocal of the detractors were non-Indigenous rock art experts, who argued that the Kimberley painted sites were a universal heritage and Indigenous people should not have the sole right to make decisions about their repainting.[43]
On the opposing side of the debate were those like the Indigenous cultural leader Mowaljarli, who argued that the Wandjina paintings were not ‘art’ and therefore the concerns about aesthetics were irrelevant. Others commenting on the political subtext of the debate stated that ‘all human art is part of a dynamic experience and if we are going to oppose repainting we are condemning Aboriginal art to the status of cultural relic’[44], and that contemporary Indigenous livelihoods and cultural continuity should take precedence over ‘heritage’.[45] The argument that repainting was undertaken by people of inappropriate age and gender was also shown to be a contentious one. Early anthropological records demonstrate that women could, and did, participate in painting and retouching of rock art in the Kimberley. Most early ethnographic work was carried out by male anthropologists, who not surprisingly documented painting as a male pursuit; however, Kaberry, one of the few female anthropologists to undertake field-based research into women’s roles in Indigenous Kimberley societies,[46] specifically referred to women’s ceremonies and women’s involvement in repainting.[47]
Today, Wandjina art is produced by men and women of all ages and production and sales are coordinated through artist cooperatives such as the Mowanjum Spirit of the Wandjina Corporation.[48] Indigenous artists working within such cooperatives and individually are also protected to some extent from unfair appropriation of images by copyright law.[49] Indigenous artists have successfully pursued claims for damages against those infringing copyright.[50] This has been particularly clear-cut when an individual’s paintings have been directly reproduced on commercial products. Less straightforward are cases where styles or designs that are regarded as collectively owned are reproduced. In the case of Wandjina art, where the contemporary artists are taking inspiration from images that are believed to have created themselves and where they are reproduced to reinforce Indigenous customary law rather than for individual benefit, issues of copyright are less clear-cut.[51] It is, however, generally agreed within the Indigenous community that only Indigenous artists who claim descent through one of the linguistic groups traditionally associated with the Wandjina should be able to reproduce these images. Reaction to the emergence of the Perth Wandjina graffiti exemplifies this moral response to ‘rights’.


As noted above its very important to the traditional owners of these images that the repainting be done in a traditional context, executed by the appropriate aged and gendered members of the community, Using traditional materials ,conforming to traditional style.

When you consider the repainting / retouching in this light, it seems unlikely the images would have morphed much.

Especially in the case of retouching, one would expect the image to change very little, retouching is simply the replacement of faded pigments, changing the image during the process would have been considered a violation of tribal law designed to preserve the images
 
Wandjina style, also spelled Wondjina, is atype of depiction in Australian cave paintings of figures that represent mythological beings associated with the creation of the world. Called wandjina figures, the images are believed by modern Aborigines to have been painted by the Wondjinas, prehistoric inhabitants of the Kimberley region in northwest Australia, the only area where cave paintings in the wandjina style have been found. Among the Aborigines, each wandjina image is renovated, or repainted, by the oldest living member supposedly descended from its originator.
Monumental and ghostlike, the wandjina figures are depicted without mouths, and the enlarged face is always painted white

.

So in the context of repainting whats really going on is the images are being preserved, with great tradition and care being part of the process.
Modern artworks are often cleaned and renovated, but they dont change much as a result.

The first and most extensive recorded cleaning, revarnishing, and touch-up of the Mona Lisa was an 1809 wash and revarnishing undertaken by Jean-Marie Hooghstoel, who was responsible for restoration of paintings for the galleries of the Musée Napoléon. The work involved cleaning with spirits, touch-up of colour, and revarnishing the painting. In 1906, Louvre restorer Eugène Denizard performed watercolour retouches on areas of the paint layer disturbed by the crack in the panel. Denizard also retouched the edges of the picture with varnish, to mask areas that had been covered initially by an older frame. In 1913, when the painting was recovered after its theft, Denizard was again called upon to work on the Mona Lisa. Denizard was directed to clean the picture without solvent, and to lightly touch up several scratches to the painting with watercolour. In 1952, the varnish layer over the background in the painting was evened out. After the second 1956 attack, restorer Jean-Gabriel Goulinat was directed to touch up the damage to Mona Lisa's left elbow with watercolour.[37]

The retouching of the Wanjina's is more in the context of this
 
It also stated that, today, all ages and genders are permitted to reproduce and/or repaint the images, earlier in the article.

The images, in form and style, have changed over the years. I'm not sure I'd argue that aboriginals wouldn't have access to news papers, radio, or any other modern convenience, as people from different groups have and do intermingle with the metropolitan Australian world. Especially considering that they're suing people successfully for infringement, according to the article. I'm not saying it's one thing or another, I'm just saying that's why I find it less compelling.

Regardless of any of that, the idea of the images being inspired by personal, real world experience is fun. A play on that is to question what good it did the aboriginals to have these experiences. They continue to paint the images as a cultural exercise, as per an aspect of their traditional religion, to ensure that the rains return to their lands.

Assuming that the originators of the images did paint these things based on first-hand experience with extra terrestrials, why might they have associated these beings with the rains? Sort of along Muadib's line of questioning: If the aliens did something in particular for the aboriginals, to be associated with rain, like bring rains, why did they stop being necessary for the rains to come?
 
Or, is it that ancient people saw these creatures passively, but assumed they were a big deal, as they had flying craft?

Another question to ask, regarding imagination, is why the creatures are so diversely depicted from culture to culture.

The aboriginals depictions don't look like Hopi or Zuni depictions, nor do they look like images from Chinese or European cave paintings. The ancient Greeks and Indians had gods who looked like humans. I think that's more suggestive of cultural skews of imagination, which is why I am not really sold on Ancient Alien ideas. Still, there is just enough room for the fun type of speculation eluded to earlier in the discussion.
 
The retouching of the Wanjina's is more in the context of this

There was a book I read parts of for an archeology project in school, and I just saw that it is referenced in the wikipedia article for the wandjina.

Citing the book, the article reads:

"The painting style evolves during this process: the figures of recent years are stockier and some now possess eyelashes."

I knew I read somewhere that they have changed over time. Anyway, that's why it's not that compelling to me. Just because my fun is ruined doesn't mean yours has to be.
 
Nah, he just believes anything that doesn't require reading a book or text that might also require reading several other books or texts.

About watching these kinds of shows for comedy: Is there a particular example you can link to that is really funny? I mean we all like a good bit of humor around here.
 

Bwaaa ha ha ha ha!!! LMFAO!

But I beleive you may mean that in the singular and not plural sense, seenigs how Ufology was the one being the dick.
Or maybe I'm wrong and we are all just a big bag of dicks, and you are blindly lashing out at everyone.

Either way I think your comment was funny as hell.

Merry Christmas anyway Prophet! And happy new year!
 

Watching the show with this mindset is pretty common. Ancient Aliens was an instantaneous meme for its insane speculation and "asking a question validates the rephrasing of that question as a positive statement" approach to literally everything. Folks between the ages of 15 and 35 are probably the most common to approach the show from this angle.

Just google or youtube search Tsoukalos. There's almost three years worth of internet, there.
 
Or maybe I'm wrong and we are all just a big bag of dicks, and you are blindly lashing out at everyone.

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. He asked a particular question regarding who would put debate before discussion in a public forum and I answered it as succinctly as possible.

Surely, nobody here is a dick.
 
I think though we need to differentiate between new works, and the process of retouching ancient rock paintings, i cant see those changing much.
Certainly not to the extent that these ancient cave paintings morphed to fit the contemporary grey image.

One thing ive always wondered about, why are they depicted with no mouth ?
Is it a reference to the abductees claim the greys speak directly to the mind.

How would you depict a telepathic entity in cave art ?. No mouth might just do the trick.
 
How would you depict a telepathic entity in cave art ?. No mouth might just do the trick

Nice. It seems that some have halos or forehead anomalies, as well. That's an interesting take.

Just for sake of reference, a larger portion of the quote reads:

Repainting has occurred so often that at one site the paint is over 40 layers deep. The painting style evolves during this process: the figures of recent years are stockier and some now possess eyelashes.

The old paintings are altered by new layers in some cases, especially where portions of the old paintings have worn completely away. They also paint over top of old paintings beyond the need for touch up. People of all ages and backgrounds in the group (and group(s)) paint over the images. These groups are not cut off from metropolitan society or media. Of all the cave art vs. alien stories, while the coolest looking, I just feel that the wandjina are the least compelling.

Again, that's just how it breaks down for me. People see things differently.
 
Some of my favourite constructs of mythology are the Hopi Kachinas. My grandmother used to live in New Mexico when I was younger. Over a course of years, we'd visited several of the sites and reservations of the Southwestern native Americans. She and her husband produced stickers, amongst the subjects of which were the Kachinas. Once I saw these god spirits, as a kid, I was instantly sold on their inherent awesomeness.

To many a Hopi's annoyance, many speculate, including some Hopi, that the Kachina, and the ant people of Hopi legend, were/are extraterrestrials. Does anyone have an opinion on these particular spirit people and the possibility of their extraterrestrial origin?

Anyone else have a favourite mythology with a speculated connection to aliens?
 
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