The Art of Magical Thinking

[smcder]

rofl - I want the hair, the outfit and the moves . . .

 

[Burnt State]

Well it looks like this particular Ship of Fools thread has steered itself off course, but not quite run aground. But when you're all stuck on a ship together there's bound to be some confusion, some yelling, sudden outbursts, unexplained mysteries and a little laughter. In some ways it's all rather appropriate given the thread topic. I just wish we were actually in a real bar together to hash it out properly.

However, I was hoping to delve a little more deeper into the fine line between delusional hallucinations and highly excited states of experience triggered by a real stimulus of unknown origin.

For if these close encounters are all hallucinations then how are we to explain the lengthy history of unusual patterns of experience and the occasional companion hard evidence? If not hallucination then what are we to make of the marauding leprechauns, sudden appearances of floating three clawed aliens or the most common event of all, the synchronistic coincidences that seem to colour daily life? Sometimes these events are so incredibly bizarre that you almost feel like the universe is speaking to you. Often it's nothing grand, just an undeniable acausal connection, enough to make you go fuzzy between the ears, and wonder to yourself, "Am I missing something? What just happened? Wtf?"

Maybe it really is all about what the trickster is there for, to teach us lessons & to force us to ask different kinds of questions.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Well it looks like this particular Ship of Fools thread has steered itself off course, but not quite run aground. But when you're all stuck on a ship together there's bound to be some confusion, some yelling, sudden outbursts, unexplained mysteries and a little laughter. In some ways it's all rather appropriate given the thread topic. I just wish we were actually in a real bar together to hash it out properly.

However, I was hoping to delve a little more deeper into the fine line between delusional hallucinations and highly excited states of experience triggered by a real stimulus of unknown origin.

For if these close encounters are all hallucinations then how are we to explain the lengthy history of unusual patterns of experience and the occasional companion hard evidence? If not hallucination then what are we to make of the marauding leprechauns, sudden appearances of floating three clawed aliens or the most common event of all, the synchronistic coincidences that seem to colour daily life? Sometimes these events are so incredibly bizarre that you almost feel like the universe is speaking to you. Often it's nothing grand, just an undeniable acausal connection, enough to make you go fuzzy between the ears, and wonder to yourself, "Am I missing something? What just happened? Wtf?"

Maybe it really is all about what the trickster is there for, to teach us lessons & to force us to ask different kinds of questions.

And it is the last three questions that most all intelligent considerations of these encounter aspects come down to, so I propose to you the magical possibility that it is not the aliens, elves, or cultural relevancies that are the real issue here, but rather in bass player musician terms, it's the space between the notes that really counts.

As you touch on clearly, the patterns correlate seamlessly throughout recorded history. The question is, what is this space? And how does this same spatial medium serve to best illuminate these interactive experiential relevancies, repeatedly?

It would seem the matter is down to two paths, and less I start reciting the lyrics to Stairway To Heaven, we'll get to that about now.

1) Us.
2) Them.

The "us" path is the one that includes all natural process relevant to ourselves. Both those relevancies we currently possess an understanding of, and also those many that by virtue of our short emergence into the veritably uncharted realm of "what's really happening in terms of what constitutes subjective experience and this stuff that we call reality?" . In this "us" scenario, the aliens and various magical experiences fit into the scheme of that which either emanates naturally from within our native environment, or directly from within ourselves, which IMO is the same thing anyway. This aliens/elves/archetypes thing fits directly into a natural scheme of things that we as of yet simply do not understand. Sentient evolution, perhaps. Maybe when DNA hits a certain evolutionary threshold on an individual basis, it physiologically triggers the induced religious or expanded awareness experience as a survival mechanism for introduction's sake. Acclimatization for several thousands of years from now when we morph into some form of post biological critter that no longer faces extinction due to being bound by such a ridiculously primitive leash of sorts.

The "them" scenario actually involves a non-human, or post-human volition. This is to state that something is not right here. We've been invaded by literally hundreds, if not thousands of different alien species. A list truly as diverse as it is long of sentient life that is most acutely reminiscent of something out of an exotic bedtime story. However, it just so happens that some of these aliens are scientists! That's right, it's attack of the left brainers coming at you with technology that truly blows the mind. Right? They can walk through walls at will, and scoop...wait a minute! Aren't these supposed to be aliens that are millions of years advanced? Why the heck are they employing the exact same technology that we've had for 40 years now? Hypodermic needles and skin biopsy scoops, now there's some cultural relevance for you. But, maybe not. Possibly they are just medically barbaric. Something smells funny in here to me, however.

 

[Randall]

I am not going to denigrate this magical thread any longer. If you have anything else to convey to me, do so in private. Yes, you already ignored a private message from me as well. I am placing those I have referred to here on my ignore list. I've had it with the predictable snob treatment and will never be sickened by it's member specific predictable routine here again.

And yes, you can bet EVERY dollar you've made in your entire life on the FACT that anything I state on an internet forum, I would state to a person's face in a heart beat. No question. I put MORE stock in online discussions than those I have casually in person anyhow. MUCH more so. When's the last time you took the time to write out a conversation you were having with someone else in person? Get real.

Geeze Jeff, you sound really upset. Are you sure you're not misinterpreting something or taking something a little too personal?

 

[boomerang]

I don't know how the comment you made above is relevant to the post of mine you quoted. Can you please clarify?

A matter of interpretation and tangential emphasis, perhaps. I took it you were mildly annoyed at the young lady's mindless rambling on about the "cuteness" of her pet as opposed to exchanging real information with her companion. Or maybe I misunderstood the scene you described. At any rate, if your point is a societal expectation to "coo" over other people's pets, I get that as well. I would hope most people would not be so shallow as to judge you for not having a pet.

I happen to be one of those societal mutants who don't "get" all the mega-hoopla over professional sports. Even though I'm glad others enjoy it.

 

[smcder]

Well it looks like this particular Ship of Fools thread has steered itself off course, but not quite run aground. But when you're all stuck on a ship together there's bound to be some confusion, some yelling, sudden outbursts, unexplained mysteries and a little laughter. In some ways it's all rather appropriate given the thread topic. I just wish we were actually in a real bar together to hash it out properly.

However, I was hoping to delve a little more deeper into the fine line between delusional hallucinations and highly excited states of experience triggered by a real stimulus of unknown origin.

For if these close encounters are all hallucinations then how are we to explain the lengthy history of unusual patterns of experience and the occasional companion hard evidence? If not hallucination then what are we to make of the marauding leprechauns, sudden appearances of floating three clawed aliens or the most common event of all, the synchronistic coincidences that seem to colour daily life? Sometimes these events are so incredibly bizarre that you almost feel like the universe is speaking to you. Often it's nothing grand, just an undeniable acausal connection, enough to make you go fuzzy between the ears, and wonder to yourself, "Am I missing something? What just happened? Wtf?"

Maybe it really is all about what the trickster is there for, to teach us lessons & to force us to ask different kinds of questions.

I apologize for my role in that Burnt State.

I wonder where everyone else stands on this. Do you find any value in magical and irrational thinking or do you think anyone with random thoughts should just be medicated even if they are not in harm or harming others? I'm interested in looking at examples where irrational thought offers us new and beneficial insights.

NO to the medicated part . . . I think of "crazy wisdom" in various religious traditions and I think of the principles of "magickal" thinking (with a k) - the occult, alchemy, the hermetic tradition, use of sigils and I also think of madness: what was once called "word salad" produced by persons with schizophrenia (related to glossolalia?) but which, if you parse it out - also has stunningly lucid or prophetic content . . .

Often it's nothing grand, just an undeniable acausal connection, enough to make you go fuzzy between the ears, and wonder to yourself, "Am I missing something? What just happened? Wtf?"

. . . and I think of those times when my own thinking has become very disordered, then took on a kind of hyper-clarity and then shifted back to my "normal" mode and for just an instant I was able to compare the two and was shaken by the comparison.

 

[nameless]

patient-Doctor, theres a steering wheel on my penis.
doctor-Does it hurt?
patient-No, but its driving me nuts.

 

[Burnt State]

I apologize for my role in that Burnt State.

I think it's all quite appropo for this kind of a dance.

I also think of madness: what was once called "word salad" produced by persons with schizophrenia (related to glossolalia?) but which, if you parse it out - also has stunningly lucid or prophetic content . . .

That's probably a very reasonable (noting the irony) place to start. What I really like about art, and talking with people in enthusiastic states, whose thoughts are hyper-clarified, is the "pleasures of the mind" that result. Say in poetry, for example, where the words communicate something, but the metaphor, rhythm, sounds and images create these other invisible formations, not readily apparent, but can be parsed out in one's mind. And in this ritualistic examination, new ideas blossom, new truths and realities are suddenly made tangible. You can't find that kind of mental stimulus while busily being skeptical.

. . . and I think of those times when my own thinking has become very disordered, then took on a kind of hyper-clarity and then shifted back to my "normal" mode and for just an instant I was able to compare the two and was shaken by the comparison.

It almost sounds identical to the reported feelings of those that have had paranormal experiences, like reality breaking, or altering suddenly. Panic attacks and intense dreams, nightmares and hallucinogenic drugs are all parallel paths in the woods, no?

 

[smcder]

I think it's all quite appropo for this kind of a dance.

That's probably a very reasonable (noting the irony) place to start. What I really like about art, and talking with people in enthusiastic states, whose thoughts are hyper-clarified, is the "pleasures of the mind" that result. Say in poetry, for example, where the words communicate something, but the metaphor, rhythm, sounds and images create these other invisible formations, not readily apparent, but can be parsed out in one's mind. And in this ritualistic examination, new ideas blossom, new truths and realities are suddenly made tangible. You can't find that kind of mental stimulus while busily being skeptical.

It almost sounds identical to the reported feelings of those that have had paranormal experiences, like reality breaking, or altering suddenly. Panic attacks and intense dreams, nightmares and hallucinogenic drugs are all parallel paths in the woods, no?

Say in poetry, for example, where the words communicate something, but the metaphor, rhythm, sounds and images create these other invisible formations, not readily apparent, but can be parsed out in one's mind. And in this ritualistic examination, new ideas blossom, new truths and realities are suddenly made tangible. You can't find that kind of mental stimulus while busily being skeptical.

yes! - word-play, the hyperfluency of manic states - and all the ways to make this shift into another mode, and some people tend to stay in that mode much of the time or it's simply their normal mode, with occasional breakthroughs to more linear thinking (which must seem very strange to them ) . . . getting in the mood, rituals before writing, invoking the muse . . . I read something about Hemingway or maybe it was Faulkner had a very specific use of alcohol and caffeine - get drunk and write but then edit sober -

It almost sounds identical to the reported feelings of those that have had paranormal experiences, like reality breaking, or altering suddenly. Panic attacks and intense dreams, nightmares and hallucinogenic drugs are all parallel paths in the woods, no?

"reality breaking" resonates . . . paranoia melds into metanoia (I wrote that and then decided I had better look it up:

• Metanoia (psychology), the process of experiencing a psychotic "break down" and subsequent, positive psychological re-building or "healing"

I always thought of it as my "schizophrenic thinking" . . . but never dared to take that to a medical authority because it has always seemed harmless enough coming mostly in the dead of night - and sometimes, I guess always, eventually resolving into a very pleasant kind of "knowing"

 

[Jeff Davis]

You can't find that kind of mental stimulus while busily being skeptical.

Herein lies the crux of the matter, IMO. The whole problem with the mind is that it's ultimately corrupted by knowledge. It's lost all instinct driven intuition and is afraid to progressively believe anything. It's like a person bent on watching TV without reception because they are just certain they will miss something important. They keep taking it in, and mulling it over. Sounds like eating too much before y0u go to bed at night. They'll tell you all about their favorite show the next day. Right after they've had time to sleep on it and filter out all the survival threats resulting from a lack of clarity that served to dilute their initial conscious rendering to a sufferable at best clutter. Knowledge is fallible. Instinct will save your ass. People need to put an emphasis on imagination and experience if they ever hope to get beyond the black and white. That's pretty magical, seeing in color that is.

 

[Burnt State]

yes! - word-play, the hyperfluency of manic states - and all the ways to make this shift into another mode, and some people tend to stay in that mode much of the time or it's simply their normal mode, with occasional breakthroughs to more linear thinking (which must seem very strange to them ) . . . getting in the mood, rituals before writing, invoking the muse . . . I read something about Hemingway or maybe it was Faulkner had a very specific use of alcohol and caffeine - get drunk and write but then edit sober -

I love wordplay as much as I love Faulkner (more than Hemingway and just a little less than Woolf).

"reality breaking" resonates . . . paranoia melds into metanoia (I wrote that and then decided I had better look it up:

• Metanoia (psychology), the process of experiencing a psychotic "break down" and subsequent, positive psychological re-building or "healing"

I always thought of it as my "schizophrenic thinking" . . . but never dared to take that to a medical authority because it has always seemed harmless enough coming mostly in the dead of night - and sometimes, I guess always, eventually resolving into a very pleasant kind of "knowing"

Healing also comes from words. These other modes of knowing is exactly what I'm interested in and what avenues they lead to. Tangibility is elusive sometimes. These are slippery ideas. "To think is to be sick..." says Djuna Barnes in, Nightwood. & then later on the same book she says:

 

[Burnt State]

We are but skin about a wind, with muscles clenched against mortality. We sleep in a long reproachful dust against ourselves. We are full to the gorge with our own names for misery. Life, the pastures in which the night feeds and prunes the cud that nourishes us to despair. Life, the permission to know death. We were created that the earth might be made sensible of her inhuman taste; and love that the body might be so dear that even the earth should roar with it. Yes, we who are full to the gorge with misery should look well around, doubting everything seen, done, spoken, precisely because we have a word for it, and not its alchemy.

The whole thing always seems to be about transformative motions, and there's a kind of quiet peace in those dead of night thoughts. Having trees around to talk to I find helps a lot.

 

[smcder]

The whole thing always seems to be about transformative motions, and there's a kind of quiet peace in those dead of night thoughts. Having trees around to talk to I find helps a lot.

there's a kind of quiet peace in those dead of night thoughts.

And there is a kind of immortality in them - they bring a kind of immortality with them, they intoxicate with this sense of always having been and always being - and they soothe, but when you get a little older you realize they are using you - and will use whoever is awake in that dead of night long after you are gone.

 

[Burnt State]

Well that's not even cold comfort, but I do understand how those eternal meditations can keep one stuck in Sysyphus' loop of patient, begrudging repetition - learning to make love to a mental slavery. I've experienced that in working through grief and mourning on one wasted five year sojourn - nothing magical there, just reinforced concrete mental walls.

On the other hand, talking to trees works as a bit of personal therapy because there is at least the attempt to plot out hope for a different personal condition to be willed into being.

 

[Burnt State]

Herein lies the crux of the matter, IMO. The whole problem with the mind is that it's ultimately corrupted by knowledge. It's lost all instinct driven intuition and is afraid to progressively believe anything. It's like a person bent on watching TV without reception because they are just certain they will miss something important. They keep taking it in, and mulling it over. Sounds like eating too much before y0u go to bed at night. They'll tell you all about their favorite show the next day. Right after they've had time to sleep on it and filter out all the survival threats resulting from a lack of clarity that served to dilute their initial conscious rendering to a sufferable at best clutter. Knowledge is fallible. Instinct will save your ass. People need to put an emphasis on imagination and experience if they ever hope to get beyond the black and white. That's pretty magical, seeing in color that is.

I think that's a pretty compelling argument for why we need to declutter our minds. The problem is, if I can cross-pollinate this conversation with the points raised by smcder, that our individual experiences do collect a knowledge based reservoir that produces unavoidable emotional fallout. Perhaps, if we lived in leaner times, where we were driven much more by survival instincts, instead of having the cushion and bed 'o' nails of civilization to fall back on, there would be much less distraction to our thoughts. Our thoughts would be more concerned with keeping ourselves and the small tribe alive. Instead we have subdivisions, apartment tenements and back alleys to retreat into our interior worlds with. It's messy private stuff. No sounds of silence for us anymore.

 

[smcder]

I think that's a pretty compelling argument for why we need to declutter our minds. The problem is, if I can cross-pollinate this conversation with the points raised by smcder, that our individual experiences do collect a knowledge based reservoir that produces unavoidable emotional fallout. Perhaps, if we lived in leaner times, where we were driven much more by survival instincts, instead of having the cushion and bed 'o' nails of civilization to fall back on, there would be much less distraction to our thoughts. Our thoughts would be more concerned with keeping ourselves and the small tribe alive. Instead we have subdivisions, apartment tenements and back alleys to retreat into our interior worlds with. It's messy private stuff. No sounds of silence for us anymore.

Getting back into a very physical job outdoors recently seems to have a connection with these thoughts somehow - maybe the physical work triggers a focus on the immediate, learning to think with and more about the body, tuning into those rhythms and getting out of the head has been a relief.

The kinesthetic aspect of thinking doesn't get mentioned much, but there's a real connection between movement and memory. We make all kinds of physical gestures when we're concentrating or trying to remember something, we use our whole body in thought. And I feel thoughts much the way I do emotions, when I really tune in.

 

[Burnt State]

I am most at peace working in the garden, walking the dog, or throwing the ball with children. Body memory is a powerful and underrated force in our lives, whether lovemaking or walking up the same hill with gusto that you do everynight on the same walk - our bodies think and feel too. We would do better to be more in tune with our bodies, after all, the good information and experiences enters into us through our senses, making poets out of us all. This returns back to your other discussion on zen koans and learning how to just be.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I am most at peace working in the garden, walking the dog, or throwing the ball with children. Body memory is a powerful and underrated force in our lives, whether lovemaking or walking up the same hill with gusto that you do everynight on the same walk - our bodies think and feel too. We would do better to be more in tune with our bodies, after all, the good information and experiences enters into us through our senses, making poets out of us all. This returns back to your other discussion on zen koans and learning how to just be.

It seems that the whole of our existence cries out that it's utterly incomplete and out of sync with nature itself. We do not live according to the animal that we actually are. It's like the whole of life is a multi styled marathon swimming event and all we do is hang about confused and tread water. And could I be bold enough to suggest why precisely? Jeff Davis, are you frickin' kidding?

IMO, it's because of thinking. Academia, and way too much of it, is the #1 problem. As a natural member of the environment that so many life forms share, modern humanity possess almost no intuitive orientation to as much. None practically. Who are we exactly? The odd thing is, the path that we have chosen leads away from that understanding, and not closer to it. We think that we have a right to know it all because of a false entitlement due to the manner in which we vainly struggle to engage "past knowledge". We dance around the greater expanse of ourselves as if our indoctrinated (educated) fear of stepping on our own feet precludes any real intuitive liberty whatsoever. The further ahead we believe we are, due to the false informational environment that we create with our misguided projections, the further away from the truth we get.

We are reality Burnt State. We have access to every single informational aspect of that which is. Reality is merely the subjective nature of our sentience reduced to what is a singular cognitively interpreted physical experience specific to human beings. It's a tiny derivative of being ourselves as one that is complete. It's the learned way. The more we think according to this artificial projected line of self important reason, the less we allow ourselves to know.

The opposite of human potential is education. How to ruin a mind in 12 easy lessons. All due to our self important misguided instincts as if as much could surely save us all when in reality all it ever does, over, and over, and over, is destroy us.

I will leave you with two Einstein quotes to consider: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." & "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

 

[smcder]

I am most at peace working in the garden, walking the dog, or throwing the ball with children. Body memory is a powerful and underrated force in our lives, whether lovemaking or walking up the same hill with gusto that you do everynight on the same walk - our bodies think and feel too. We would do better to be more in tune with our bodies, after all, the good information and experiences enters into us through our senses, making poets out of us all. This returns back to your other discussion on zen koans and learning how to just be.

I was thinking this morning of humor - how you get a joke - and we tease the last person to laugh for being slow, we talk about quick-wits and while the smartest people I know aren't necessarily funny - the funniest people I know are smart - but we laugh with our bodies - so a joke can travel from the intellect all the way to the ribs - and we can laugh until it hurts - it has a lot in common with the orgasm and when we've finished we have a feeling of body, mind and soul being reunited.

 

[Randall]

... I will leave you with two Einstein quotes to consider: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." & "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

What do you think Einstein meant by "level of consciousness"? It would have to be something very specific in order for his quote to be true, because in general terms, people create and solve problems from the same level of consciousness all the time. However I absolutely love the second quote. It's an excellent slam on the bureaucracy and elitism associated with institutionalized education.