Randall
J. Randall Murphy
George has already made more out this "Mystery Witness" than he should have prior to obtaining the facts. Let's just hope that whatever facts he does turn up ( if any ) are more than his mere opinions.
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The Citizen Hearing on Disclosure Thread
- Thread starter Stano123
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George has already made more out this "Mystery Witness" than he should have prior to obtaining the facts. Let's just hope that whatever facts he does turn up ( if any ) are more than his mere opinions.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
It's not a matter of whether or not it's a "big deal". It's a matter of whether or not what he's saying can be verified as true. When not only can it not be verified as true, but it can be verified as most probably untrue, then there is reason to suspect that things aren't as they're being portrayed. Sure, maybe poor old Mr. Anonymous just got the President's aircraft model mixed up inside his old failing brain. The problem with that rationale is that it gives us even less reason to believe that what he says is accurate. Then again, he seemed to have recognized the secret U2 and SR-71 just fine. Why I wonder? Maybe because in more recent years the U2 and SR-71 have had more mainstream media coverage than the relatively mundane Constellation. BTW, when Mr. "Anonymous" was allegedly at Groom Lake, the SR-71 hadn't even been designated as the SR-71 yet. It was referred to as Oxcart. So he's obviously filling in holes with information acquired after the fact.
If you want to gloss over these points then go ahead and let it slide. Ignore the fact that it's very unlikely that any CIA/Military man would call just any old plane the "President's plane". In the CIA only aircraft designated as the President's plane are considered to be the "President's plane" unless the President himself also happens to be on it, which he wasn't. The CIA is very picky about these things. Not only that; he didn't just say "the President's plane". He was very specific about it being an Electra. So by saying, " ... it isn't a huge thing to call it 'the president's plane.'" you're actually changing both the content and the context of the testimony in order to dismiss the discrepancy. Sorry Frank, but I don't see that kind of analysis as in keeping with the principles of critical thinking.
And the aircraft discrepancy was just the first hole in his story. Then there is the matter of his "Q" clearance. It's a good thing this interview didn't go into more detail or I can just imagine all the other holes that would start to appear. But then again, I'll admit there's a chance that I could be completely wrong about this guy. Maybe there is really something to his story and I've just turned my "noise filter" up to high? How much would you suggest that I turn it down? All the way to "OMG Aliens!" or just part way to ... what exactly?
Frank Stalter
Paranormal Maven
There's also the question of swipe card technology, which wasn't in use at the time. His core story is the problem not whether he flew, or didn't fly, on a Lockheed Constellation or Electra. If the story is true, which I doubt, it's true. The model of plane he flew to Nevada in is the smallest of small potatoes. The discrepancy doesn't add credibility to the story, but it's not what damages it the most. His core story, that the CIA was essentially forced out of a facility it commissioned and had constructed to test planes it commissioned and had constructed by "MJ-12," is the core problem. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that's even close to what actually happened. Critical thinking requires seeing the forest for the trees.
The earliest civvie ref i can find is 1954
Popular Mechanics - Google Books
But i can imagine they might have been around prior to this in military circles
c4chaos
Paranormal Novice
yes, even George Knapp was amazed at the even handedness of NY Times on its story on The Citizen Hearing on Disclosure. and rightly, so!
George Knapp: "The New York Times has been over-the-top hostile to the UFO topic for the past 40 years. This is the story from the Times regarding the UFO Disclosure event in DC this past week. My take is that it is amazing in its even handedness. There are some potshots taken, but they are fair, and the paper gives at least some attention to the main message. (Frankly, at least a few of the witnesses who testified are flat-out wacky, in my opinion. If the Times had wanted to slice and dice the overall event, it wouldn't have been hard to do.)"
via George Knapp's FB page
George Knapp: "The New York Times has been over-the-top hostile to the UFO topic for the past 40 years. This is the story from the Times regarding the UFO Disclosure event in DC this past week. My take is that it is amazing in its even handedness. There are some potshots taken, but they are fair, and the paper gives at least some attention to the main message. (Frankly, at least a few of the witnesses who testified are flat-out wacky, in my opinion. If the Times had wanted to slice and dice the overall event, it wouldn't have been hard to do.)"
via George Knapp's FB page
Frank Stalter
Paranormal Maven
There ya go. A small thing I thought was off and I was off. Focus on the big stuff not the small stuff.
This was what I based my earlier comment on . . . .
Magnetic stripe card - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
I'm not dismissing the reference to him swiping his ID card. It's another legitimately questionable item in the chain. Or should I say that perforated key card locks were patented in 1954 and the poor old guy was just a bit confused again? And after all, he didn't actually say it was a card lock. Maybe it was just a counter of some kind. But it's not our job to guess that. Critical thinking requires using the evidence at hand, which in this case is actually what was said, not merely implied, and the words "President's Electra" were clearly said. It's just as legitimate as questioning his ID card. but this isn't a contest to determine which of his claims are the most grievous. It was easy to see from the outset that there were problems with his story and all I was doing was giving a couple of quick examples to get people thinking. By all means feel free to add some more. What specifics of the MJ-12 reference to you think are the most relevant?
Frank Stalter
Paranormal Maven
Making a point of what seems like it might be off is important, but I think it can be a mistake to write something off entirely because of some possible minor errors. Even then, sources used for fact checking can be wrong too.
FletcherMunson
Skilled Investigator
Forgive my ignorance, but how common is it that an agent of the CIA would never have used his own name in intelligence work? Of course, undercover work would require an alias, but Mr. Anonymous makes it sound as though his co-workers never even knew his real name. Has Mr. Dolan or Ms. Howe stated whether they know the name he used as an agent? That struck me as a red flag while watching the interview. If Mr. Dolan or Ms. Howe have his real name, but he never used it, then how could they even begin to verify any of his claims without his agent alias?
I don't know. Mr. Anonymous seems like a Philip Corso-type character to me -- especially when he weaves in MJ-12, Roswell, the alien interview, and the alien autopsy. Those items also represent red flags for me, because they are woven into his story in such a Forrest Gump-ish manner. And, I tend to view such claims with a jaundiced eye because I believe the evidence of fraud outweighs the proof of reality with those issues.
It could have been the way he told the story -- the half-smile as he related it -- but something just doesn't seem right here.
I don't know. Mr. Anonymous seems like a Philip Corso-type character to me -- especially when he weaves in MJ-12, Roswell, the alien interview, and the alien autopsy. Those items also represent red flags for me, because they are woven into his story in such a Forrest Gump-ish manner. And, I tend to view such claims with a jaundiced eye because I believe the evidence of fraud outweighs the proof of reality with those issues.
It could have been the way he told the story -- the half-smile as he related it -- but something just doesn't seem right here.
But do you really think someone at death's door would make up stories of that sort? For what purpose, since he wouldn't be around to see the fallout?
ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
Agree with Gene on this one deathbed confessions and what I found was his eye movements and hand moving at pivotal questions. This chap been in the whirlpool of the spymaster. Who else was in the room and Gene maybe you be able to get one of his family members and Richard Dolan to come on the show?
My reference doesnt seem to be to perforated cards, as the article states
Given basic magnetic recording goes back as far as WWII, its not beyond the realms of possibility
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
That's not the point. All that matters is whether the information appears to be accurate? It doesn't.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Yes I realize that. My reference was simply an example of how something similar to that might have gotten confused in Mr. Anonymous' mind, like the difference between an Electra and a Constellation. I'm not trying to pick on the old guy, but the fact is, this story is just adding more noise to the picture. If he or Dolan ( who should have done all this first ) could show us this ID card, show us some photos of Mr Anonymous at Groom Lake with his CIA director Boss, show us a record that indicates the President's plane was used on those dates for that purpose, show us records from Eisenhower's office that confirms this order, show us something. But instead we've got nothing but this weak interview that seems full of holes.
c4chaos
Paranormal Novice
Richard Dolan talked about this on his radio show today. he mentioned that the actual interview was about 6 hours. but Dolan doesn't know when and how much of the video will be made available. in general, Dolan's opinion of the Anonymous CIA guy was that he's being truthful. but that there's no way to verify his stories. Dolan also mentioned that there was a couple of claims which he find surprising. e.g. the claim that Eisenhower threatened to invade Area 51.
Frank Stalter
Paranormal Maven
Dolan talked about the interview last night. He's skeptical. He also said there were other claims. The man said he saw a photo from Italy of an ET vehicle on the ground and an ET walking about, saw a Nazi bell vehicle while in Nevada. Said he saw the man's documents and he was in the service at the right time but nothing to tie him to the CIA. Said he thought the guy was a good man, met his family, good church going folks. Dolan said he was a little surprised the interview got as much attention as it did.
Did Gordon Duff show up for the testimonies? He said something about meeting cult commander Dr. S. Greer there.
No idea on Q clearances, but a recent book (pushing obvious disinfo about the Roswell stuff) pointed out DoE had an extraconstitutional country-within-a-country chain of command thing going at Groom Lake, outside of executive, judicial, legislative oversight, control, financing.
No idea on Q clearances, but a recent book (pushing obvious disinfo about the Roswell stuff) pointed out DoE had an extraconstitutional country-within-a-country chain of command thing going at Groom Lake, outside of executive, judicial, legislative oversight, control, financing.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
There's no such legitimate chain of command. The President is Commander in Chief ... period. If he gives an order, you do it. At least this is what my Dad tells me, who was in the US Army, and Alexander ( the author of UFOs ) also says the same thing. Nobody in the military gets to say "No" to a presidential order.
FletcherMunson
Skilled Investigator
I don't know, Mr. Steinberg. I can't know what is going through Mr. Anonymous' mind. We all deal with terminal illness in our own way. As someone who is dealing with a life-altering and potentially fatal illness, I can say that a myriad of thoughts runs through my head depending on how I am feeling on a particular day. The positive (resolve, motivation) often mixes with the negative (regret, wishful thinking, self-pity) in surprising ways with sometimes shockingly surreal results. There are times when I wish my life had been radically different, that I had taken this or that opportunity when it came along, or, honestly, that someone would just listen to me and think I have something of value to contribute. Maybe Mr. Anonymous has had some of these same thoughts and is acting on them by telling a story he either wishes were true or believes to be true.
To be clear, I should have said in my previous post that I don't think Mr. Anonymous is necessarily lying, because I believe a liar must have intent to deceive. The tone of that post was poorly conceived on my part.
My principle point is that he brought up a couple of events in ufological lore that are usually (and rightly) dismissed on The Paracast (Roswell, the alien autopsy), and others in which the evidence is, at best, suspect (MJ-12, the alien interview). To me, the inclusion of these issues seems to make Mr. Anonymous' story objectively untrue. But that is just a personal observation that may or may not be correct.
Right, it wouldn't be legitimate, DoE is nominally part of the executive, but while it might not be de jure it might be de facto, which goes toward explaining scuttlebutt Eisenhower was talking about "invading" Area 51. Gordon Duff is pushing the opposite end of the Eisenhower-treaty-with-ET legend, claiming to have seen the dox granting ETs a quota of humans to use as meat each year. That wouldn't be legal either, any treaty has to be ratified by congress. Not to mention it violates most of the amendments to the constitution and the main body of same, nor that the humans scheduled for abduction were not Ike's to give, and not part of any executive branch chain of command.