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The Day I died (Documentary)

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Nathaniel

Nathaniel

Paranormal Maven

A documentary in six parts about near death experiences as seen from both a scientific and 'spiritual' viewpoint.

There is a particular case in part three at 3.20 that I would like to draw your attention to. If consciousness only exists within the physical body then how does something like this happen?
 
I've seen some of these NDE documentaries and they are quite compelling.


A nurse once asked me point blank, as I was being returned to my room after surgery, if I had experienced an NDE. I asked her if there was anything in particular I should know about how things went in the OR ??? She assured me there wasn't. Great bedside manner !
 
Ufology - I would be particularly interested to hear (or read) your opinion on the case I pointed out.
 
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I did state it in my first post, but part three at 3.20 is, in my opinion, a very intriguing case and I would be very interested to hear your perspective.
 
Nathaniel said:
I did state it in my first post, but part three at 3.20 is, in my opinion, a very intriguing case and I would be very interested to hear your perspective.
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Apparently I need to be more observant. Sorry about that (my bad) !
At 3:20 there's a segment that asks if NDEs could be happening to quote: "when the brain is not functioning ... when a person is clinically dead?" Is that your focus? Or to put it this way, are you asking this question: If consciousness only exists within the physical body then how do NDEs happen when the brain is not functioning ... when a person is clinically dead?
 
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Well it seems a logical possibility as we are electrical folks we seek power source as own body drains down due to death and the universe is electrically charged. Just seeing a love one prior to passing away felt strong electrical charge in the room. Its up to the individual not some money funded corps scientific groups who suggests its all hogwash which rather have us buying 24hours a day than thinking of basic things in life like nature and loved ones.
 
blowfish said:
... Its up to the individual not some money funded corps scientific groups who suggests its all hogwash which rather have us buying 24hours a day than thinking of basic things in life like nature and loved ones.
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It's up to the individual? How does that logic work? Is it like anyone can believe whatever they want and that makes it all true? And what does "money funded corps scientific groups" have to do with whether or not the information is correct? Are you suggesting that the people who are writing, publishing, and selling books to promote life after death to people who want to believe their loved ones live on in some la la land aren't doing it for the money? If you believe that then walk into your nearest bookstore and ask if they'll just give you the latest book about life after death for free.
 
Ufology, there is definitely some confusion afoot!

The segment I am referring to is section three of the six part video and is at 3.20.

This one.


It's the case of a woman who claims to have had a NDE during a major surgery wherein her brain was effectively shut down, her eyes were taped shut and large clicking devices were placed into her ears.

Apparently she was able to describe in precise detail the tools used for her surgery and even recounted conversations held by the doctors operating on her, all observed from 'above her own body'.
 
Nathaniel,
Touch on a good point and maybe a listen and guest in near future for paracast the host of this podcast?
Currently its theories which groups are pushing on both sides of the fence regarding Near Death Experience and those who have had the NDE would be more incline to listen than the folks not been on the other so called side. Ufology I meant your individual choice to choose to be on the scientific or the NDE fence and even on the fence. I rather see folks study subject with good intention not just pro-sceptic agenda without reading and listening to experiencers. Take or leave your choice:)

Skeptiko - Science at the Tipping Point
 
They should call it a NADE or near absolute death experience because in most of these cases the person is clinically dead for a short time. They didn't nearly die, they died.

My take on this is that some of these stories are bogus, just plain lies. Some of them are real experiences. I think the one you mentioned is a real experience IMO.Some of the experiences are potentially medically induced as the result of the process of death, the tunnel of light is one good example of something that has been replicated as a physical process of dying.

If we accept that a percentage of the cases are real experiences that didn't involve any kind of physical process of the body, and instead involve what happened after the persons body completely shut down for a short time, maybe as much as 5/10 minutes or longer, then we are left with the conclusion that the person is existing in spirit form or is being fed information in the form of a dream that makes them feel as if they are somewhere else.

When you think about it our physical systems are at an all time low when we are in a deep sleep and this might be similar in some cases, so I don't discount the possibility that we either get induced suggestion from the spirit world or inner mental process after death in some reported NDEs

The last option we are left with is that a person simply goes away from their body...might visit a few places and then end up in a place either good or bad depending, or in a rare case return to live some more. This is basically what I believe to be true in the case of a real death where the person doesn't come back. I think that initially maybe after a brief visit around to see a few friends and family we are taken not under our own power to where ever it is we belong.

We are spirits wrapped in bodies. Simply put. Why wouldn't we go somewhere else especially in light of what we are told in ancient texts ? I think the very fact that we ask the question is proof that we intuitively know there is more. Do I believe all of what I hear on the subject?Seldom if ever. Misinformation and disinformation goes a lot deeper than UFOs.

I think there is a danger in attempting to reach altered states in order to experience out of body experiences.
 
Nathaniel said:
Ufology, there is definitely some confusion afoot! The segment I am referring to is section three of the six part video and is at 3.20. It's the case of a woman who claims to have had a NDE during a major surgery wherein her brain was effectively shut down, her eyes were taped shut and large clicking devices were placed into her ears. Apparently she was able to describe in precise detail the tools used for her surgery and even recounted conversations held by the doctors operating on her, all observed from 'above her own body.
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OK I think we've nailed down the relevant part of the video. I could blame myself for not being thorough when reviewing your post, but I think I'll blame Chris' Trickster instead, who always likes to toy with folks who are out exploring this territory. To start off, the basic question is still the same as was proposed in my last post. If consciousness only exists within the physical body then how do NDEs happen when the brain is not functioning ... when a person is clinically dead?

There are a couple of issues here, but to preface, I don't dismiss the possibility that consciousness may be able to exist outside the bodies we were born with. In another recent conversation I pointed out that if the universe is some sort of generated construct, like an incredibly complex computer simulation, then there may be some means whereby consciousness can be uploaded from our brains to another sub-system within the mainframe, which in turn has access to all the information that makes up the universe including the immediate surroundings of the host's body, which could be relayed to the uploaded consciousness, resulting in an NDE experience. This is all hypothetically possible without having to evoke any religion or superstition. But is that the way it really is?

Although there is some circumstantial evidence to suggest that the universe is a generated construct, we don't yet have sufficient information to be sure, and even if it turned out that it is, it doesn't necessarily mean that the type of sub-processors and memory required for maintaining consciousness following bodily death exist. I also followed the video into the cellular nanotube theory, but there are a couple of assumptions there that I don't think make sufficient sense to seriously pursue, specifically the way superposition and quantum entanglement were fudged into the theory. It should also be noted that even if that theory has some merit, then it still means that consciousness is the result of brain processes.

Moving on to how else it might be explained in more mundane ways. The first thing to remember is that we're only dealing with claims made after the fact that haven't been verified under controlled conditions designed to address this specific issue. For example, there have been experiments where a random pattern generator or scrolling text bar is placed in the operating room up where any NDE experiencer couldn't help but notice it, and who upon returning to their bodies should be able to accurately relay the pattern or message that had been displayed. Dozens of such experiments ( possibly more ) have been done, all with zero confirmation. Also, these kinds of shows are notorious for editing in ways that reinforce a particular bias or view, in some cases making it look like what a person says is related to the context of the scene, when in fact it's something completely different ( just ask @Christopher O'Brien ).

The next thing to consider is the phrase "clinically dead" which is getting mushed in with the idea of brain dead. Clinical death is limited to the apparent cessation of circulation of blood and breathing, and there are numerous stories of people who have been presumed clinically dead, who have later regained consciousness. So clinical death isn't the same as brain death, and isn't as certain a diagnosis as we'd want in order to assess the issue of NDEs. However brain death is another matter, and it's also much more tricky.

For starters brain death can happen when a persons circulatory system is still functioning to some extent. Brains can also operate at such a low level that all but the most sensitive equipment, including EEGs will show a flat response ( Wikipedia ). So it is entirely possible that patients who have been very carefully put into a state of what would normally be classed as dead so that they can be easily revived, aren't really entirely "dead", but operating at a very low level below the instrumented readouts ability to detect, and that their brains manufacture NDEs the same way they manufactures dreams ( which can seem very real ), and that upon awakening, that information has migrated to memory where it is recalled as an NDE.

There's also another possibility. In the specific case you cite, we're tempted to take it at face value that the descriptions provided by the patient "corresponded very accurately to what had actually occurred". However once again, we have no controlled experiment to verify this. All we have is a situation where a patient was probably made familiar with what was going to happen prior to the operation, and even if it wasn't explained in detail, our random conscious and unconscious exposure over time to knowledge about such procedures, combined with the familiarity of the doctors, the conscious observation of the OR prior to being anesthetized, and other peripheral stimuli, all came together to form this memory of an NDE after the fact.

To clarify further, the story is told as though the NDE happened in real time during the operation, but the only evidence is a memory. Therefore it's possible that the memory may not have been created in real time, but is a product of the unconscious living mind that upon being resuscitated, assembled it from information acquired prior to, during, and after the operation. The patient may have the feeling that they gained this memory during the actual operation, and this would be normal considering the content, plus the mind also has a way of distorting time, especially during dream states. Many people have been disoriented about the actual time upon awakening from a dream, and dreams often do seem very real. There's also the phenomenon of déjà vu ( the feeling we've experienced the present at some point in the past ).

With all these other reasonable possibilities at hand, we simply cannot leap to the conclusion that NDEs actually represent disembodied consciousness. What is needed to confirm the theory of detached consciousness is either repeated successful experiments involving the kinds of targets mentioned earlier, or a means of performing a real time detailed analysis ( e.g. accurate and detailed remote viewing under controlled conditions ). I hope this provides you with some further food for thought.
 
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Not to split too many hairs here. But for every action there is a reaction, so in effect there is never really ever nothing, roight? Even the definition of nothing is something.
 
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