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The Great Aztec Debate

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I cant believe no one is as angry with Kevin Randall as I am. Its like because he softened by shows end after he had had the wind taken out of his sails repeatedly that its ok to come on and basically call someone a charlatan based on poorly gathered bits and pieces of second and third hand statements and a book review for Christs sake! Who cares if Aztec exist or not? Kevin Randall set out to publicly shame an author out of business and he had NOTHING to back any of his statements against the authors credibility or info gathering. Then by the end of the show hes all soft spoken when hes had the rug pulled out from under him repeatedly. Ramsey kept composure and had his facts straight. Its easy to win a debate when only one participant knows what they are talking about.
Once again, this has nothing to do with Aztec and everything to do with one person unjustly trying to discredit another. If the Paracast were mine to make the calls on Kevin Randall would forever be banished to George Noorey land to swim with the rest of the mentally impaired of the ufo community for rest of his miserable existence.
 
Well, we all can have our off days on the radio. It's public and it's a show lasting several hours, and to be honest, I don't know that many people
who know the Ramsey book as well as Ramsey himself, so... Maybe that's it. Just a bad day on the radio? I don't think Randall was, justly or unjustly, just trying to discredit anyone. I think Randall just doesn't believe the case.
 
That's just a link the article Kevin posted on his own blog a few days after the "great debate."

More important is a three-part article Kevin posted earlier this year, from Monte Shriver, a one-time Aztec resident.

Here are the links:

A Different Perspective: Aztec in Perspective by Monte Shriver - Part One

Aztec in Perspective by Monte Shriver - Part Two

Aztec in Perspective by Monte Shriver - Part Three

Shriver raises some critical issues about Aztec, first of which is that he doesn't even know of any fellow Aztec resident who ever heard of such an event back in 1948. Again, finding documentation that actually predates the Scully book is the problem — and has always been the problem.
 
My point exactly. I posted this link in response to Jimi Justin's apparent anger over Kevin Randle's "treatment" (my word) of Scott Ramsey. I just thought that Jimi Justin would like to read Kevin explain himself in regards to the debate.

The point Kevin makes overall about the validity of Aztec is getting harder to deny I believe. And I am someone who was squarely in Scott Ramsey's camp.
 
Jimi Justin said:
I cant believe no one is as angry with Kevin Randall as I am. Its like because he softened by shows end after he had had the wind taken out of his sails repeatedly that its ok to come on and basically call someone a charlatan based on poorly gathered bits and pieces of second and third hand statements and a book review for Christs sake! Who cares if Aztec exist or not? Kevin Randall set out to publicly shame an author out of business and he had NOTHING to back any of his statements against the authors credibility or info gathering. Then by the end of the show hes all soft spoken when hes had the rug pulled out from under him repeatedly. Ramsey kept composure and had his facts straight. Its easy to win a debate when only one participant knows what they are talking about.
Once again, this has nothing to do with Aztec and everything to do with one person unjustly trying to discredit another. If the Paracast were mine to make the calls on Kevin Randall would forever be banished to George Noorey land to swim with the rest of the mentally impaired of the ufo community for rest of his miserable existence.
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You're going too far. Bear in mind that Scott Ramsey has been immersed in the Aztec minutiae for 20 years. There is no way that Randle can argue every tiny detail. But the main argument is the same: It's up to Ramsey to prove his case. Has he done so? I don't think so. He never did answer Randle's most important point, about the lack of documentation prior to the Scully book.
 
Let me say this first, I dont believe the Aztec incident happened. I stick with my opinion about Randle. He was a hostile a@$ at the begining of the show who only decided to play nice after he was humbled repeatedly. He came on and misrepresented another persons research by utilizing second and third party assessments of someone elses work. That alone makes me question any research Randle has done himself. You guys can be part of the Kevin Randall fan club I wont try to persuade you otherwise. However, for me he has made it to the dont bother with listening to the show tonight because the guest sucks list.
 
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Jimi Justin said:
Let me say this first, I dont believe the Aztec incident happened. I stick with my opinion about Randle. He was a hostile ass at the begining of the show who only decided to play nice after he was humbled repeatedly. He came on and misrepresented another persons research by utilizing second and third party assessments of someone elses work. That alone makes me question any research Randle has done himself. You guys can be part of the Kevin Randall fan club I wont try to persuade you otherwise. However, for me he has made it to the dont bother with listening to the show tonight because the guest sucks list.
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The posturing and lack of preparedness on Randle's part doesn't mean everything he's done is unworthy of merit.
 
ufology said:
The posturing and lack of preparedness on Randle's part doesn't mean everything he's done is unworthy of merit.
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Your right. However, when you come out of the gate the way he did and the best research material he had to offer was a book review that he didnt even write! Thats enough for me. Randle says in his rebutle that the burden of proof was on Ramsey. Well, that would have been the case before he started attacking his work and research with nothing to support his accusations. The Aztec case is weak and really doesnt take a lot to break it down. Ramsey obviously believes it and has done a lot of work to prove his case. I can respect that. I dont agree but so what. That doesnt mean his research is no good or hes a bad writer or hes a liar.
Again, Randle made it not about Aztec and set out to discredit someone which he failed at. Im out of things to say about this and I prefer to ignore people like Randle. Id much rather listen to a good researcher present a case I dont agree with.
 
@Heidi Lemmer ... There's little doubt that Randle could have done better, but we don't know all the mitigating circumstances either. I'm not going to crucify Randle over this one show.

@Jimi Justin ... I'm not making excuses for Randle here. You've got a fair point regarding this episode. But I don't think it would be fair to cite this lone example as a reason to imply Randle isn't generally a good researcher. He's generally much better than most. Hopefully he'll learn from this to either choose his battles more wisely or do his homework beforehand.
 
It's also important to understand where Randle stands in this debate. Scott Ramsey has spent 20 years and, he claims, half a million dollars of his own money to focus on this case. There is no way Randle could keep up with him on every minute detail. He certainly did his best, and being corrected on the pronunciation of someone's name was just silly. At the end of the day, Randle had one key argument that overshadowed all the others: There's no paper trail prior to the Frank Scully book to demonstrate the Aztec crash really occurred. Other than the handful of people Ramsey found, or got second or third hand information about, the people in Aztec do not seem to have a memory of the case. This is a very significant matter that those who believe in the case need to address. After 60 years, we are no closer to nailing this down.

In contrast, we can say something happened in Roswell. We can debate what it was, but there is a community memory of something crashing. It was in the newspapers of the day.
 
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