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The Great Ecker-Klass Debate

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Decker said:
Do yourself a favor and go back to uforadio's links and listen and read. Your questions will be answered.
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OK, I checked out the videos that uforadio posted. Nothing really new there. Mind you, two of the links didn't work for me, so maybe there was more there that could have been relevant. BTW, the "documents" Klass was referring to seem to be the MJ-12 documents, most of which have since been accepted as forgeries. I don't think it was right top call Hynek a fraud, but was Klass being mean and spiteful or just irresponsible? If he was just doing his usual skeptic routine, then I'm not going to join in on the chant to trash dead Phil just yet.
 
I posted about Don's debate on UFO Updates which caused some reaction. Here are all the posts so far:

Thread - post#0
Klass' Infamous Theory About Valentich Incident
REPLIES:
Don Ledger - post #1
Re: Klass' Infamous Theory About Valentich Incident
Stanton Friedman - post #2
Re: Klass' Infamous Theory About Valentich Incident
Jerome Clark - post #3
Re: Klass' Infamous Theory About Valentich Incident
Don Ledger - post #4
Re: Klass' Infamous Theory About Valentich Incident
Jerome Clark - post #5
Re: Klass' Infamous Theory About Valentich Incident
Bruce Maccabee - post #6
Re: Klass' Infamous Theory About Valentich Incident
 
vesvehighfolk said:
Ok..randi is a super skeptic...he though has done much good in eposing fraud..in his life did klass do the field any favors or was he just so closed minded that he could not do the field any good at all?
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Even in his death Klass stirs up debate, and that is good. It makes people think and do research to substantiate their opinions. However at the same time, Klass wasn't always right, and recently there have been reports that he had actually been malicious. I'm disturbed about those allegations. No skeptic should go so far as to be malicious. But then again I have yet to see any substantial evidence of those rumors. If anything, I think we should try to recognize the positive effect that skepticism has, and recognize that Klass is an iconic figure in ufology when it comes to his participation as a skeptic.
 
uforadio said:
Few more clips from my archives that I uploaded and posted to different Paracast threads in the past. Compiled here for this thread:

Randle vs Klass on Larry King (June 28, 1997)

Friedman vs Klass (June 24, 1987)

Blum vs Klass on Oprah (December 5th, 1990)
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Thank you for these videos. I had not seen them before and they were very interesting.
 
I am very new to this group so I just realized that there is a section for book reviews, which I am very excited about. Having had read many books on the subject matter and one of Klass' in particular I plan on utilizing this feature of the forums. The book I read was UFO Abductions A Dangerous Guide. I cannot tell you how infuriating he was to me. This coming from someone who had never read a book by a debunker in the past. I will touch more about this in my review which I plan to write in the near future. It comforts me however, to know that after reading this thread that I am not the only person with this feelings in regards to Klass. When I was reading most of your comments and watching the related videos I felt the very same way.

I will say that I do find it a habit of Klass to try to slander or ruin the reputation of experiencers/believers regardless of their level of participation with in the phenomenon. With out getting too much ahead of myself, because I would like to save it for my book review, I believe that he nit picks as he sees fit to make his points and I really wouldn't be surprised if he was employed to assist with the cover up that is mentioned in the videos above.
 
Michelle said:
I believe that he ( Klass ) nit picks as he sees fit to make his points and I really wouldn't be surprised if he was employed to assist with the cover up that is mentioned in the videos above.
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Well ... to be fair, sometimes the devil is in the details. For example one of our skeptic named Lance Moody found that the credentials of a prominent author in ufology ( info here ) appear to have been fabricated. Klass pointed out that Walton had a history that made his story questionable ( brief here ). All too often we are not as discerning as we should be about ourselves in ufology, and the skeptics keep us from becoming too complacent. What bothers me is when they become offhandedly dismissive and resort to ridicule and mockery. That's nothing short of bullying, yet some of them still think it's justified. Those are the types that give skepticism a bad name.
 
ufology said:
Well ... to be fair, sometimes the devil is in the details. For example one of our skeptic named Lance Moody found that the credentials of a prominent author in ufology ( info here ) appear to have been fabricated. Klass pointed out that Walton had a history that made his story questionable ( brief here ). All too often we are not as discerning as we should be about ourselves in ufology, and the skeptics keep us from becoming too complacent. What bothers me is when they become offhandedly dismissive and resort to ridicule and mockery. That's nothing short of bullying, yet some of them still think it's justified. Those are the types that give skepticism a bad name.
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I completely agree with you! I read through a few of the pages, but it is a lot of information for me to get into right now. I have been on my computer for about 14 hours now... Christopher mentioned that Lance has somewhat of a sixth sense about Imbrogno and perhaps that was just a gut feeling that I had about Klass when I first read his book, not that he was lying about his credentials but instead just taking really cheap shots below the belt just to discredit eye witness accounts. I have always felt that I have had an irregularly acute first impression about people in person and perhaps that gift is more than it had always seemed to me now. I just had a really bad feeling when I started reading his book. Then again it could have been because I had never read a book from a debunkers standpoint before and I can attribute those feelings to that fact as well. Regardless, I still believe there is a larger issue at hand than an experiencers personal life when it comes to their actual experiences, as long as their mental health is in check.
 
Michelle said:
I have always felt that I have had an irregularly acute first impression about people in person and perhaps that gift is more than it had always seemed to me now.
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Intuition or sixth-sense impressions, whatever we call them, require a delicate balance, and they're more complex than simple black or white. For example, when it comes to people, I think it's fair to say that we all have a darker side and a lighter side. Just consider how Jekyll & Hyde some people can be when they get behind the wheel. But it's also manifested more subtly and regularly in the totality of our actions, particularly by the fact that people in general can nearly always be counted on to do what is best for them instead of someone else. This darker side is the opposite of charity, and therefore how good we are can be measured by the degree to which we're prepared to unconditionally compromise or even suffer for the benefit of others, and we all tend to live someplace in this gray area, between pure self-sacrifice and pure selfishness.

So where does this leave us with respect to our intuition? Our intuition is a sort of automatic sense about the state of these two forces at any given time with respect to our immediate well being. We should listen to it and value it without allowing it to rule us as if we're thought police. To do that we need to hone it by balancing it against sufficient evidence and real life actions. To a certain extent, I believe Klass believed he was performing a valuable service by rooting out frauds and opportunists. This is a noble cause, even if his darker side occasionally got the better of him by being too self-serving in his posturing and presentation.
I just had a really bad feeling when I started reading his book. Then again it could have been because I had never read a book from a debunkers standpoint before and I can attribute those feelings to that fact as well. Regardless, I still believe there is a larger issue at hand than an experiencers personal life when it comes to their actual experiences, as long as their mental health is in check.
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I agree that something strange has been going on, but exactly what isn't entirely clear. Purely psychological symptoms are not sufficient evidence that anything material has happened. But combine that with a few more things like consciously experienced and remembered UFO sightings prior to, or immediately after, and the plot thickens, especially if there are independent witnesses to the sighting near the same time. But ultimately, for me that still isn't good enough. We need a collection of evidence that is as good or better than we have for UFOs themselves. Not necessarily physical evidence; even information that can be corroborated by independent experts would do.

So why don't we have such evidence? Such close proximity and direct communication with aliens should easily facilitate the transference of unique and previously unknown knowledge. It's also not uncommon to hear claims that the aliens are passing along some important message for mankind. But to date nothing of the sort has been verified to have taken place. All we get is trite social commentary and the occasional bit of technobabble. What we need is something more substantial, especially if it's really taking place. For these reasons, although I have had some of the symptoms of the abduction experience, I don't claim that I have actually been abducted. I only claim to have had experiences that fit the pattern.
 
"Klass believed he was performing a valuable service.."
I would agree, except that he often crossed that line- taking an opposing view "personal" or grasping at straws to explain/debunk. I will say one thing for the guy- he might have single handedly created the "giggle factor" we have today.
 
Stagger Lee said:
"Klass believed he was performing a valuable service.."
I would agree, except that he often crossed that line- taking an opposing view "personal" or grasping at straws to explain/debunk. I will say one thing for the guy- he might have single handedly created the "giggle factor" we have today.
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On the "giggle-factor", Klass was no doubt a contributor. But he certainly wasn't alone. Don't forget the Robertson Panel.
 
Stagger Lee said:
agreed. "Contributor" would better describe him.
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Sometimes I'm a bit too quick on the draw. I think we could even add "significant" contributor. After all Klass was certainly a celebrity skeptic ( if there ever was such a thing ). So reflecting on it a bit more, the sentiment of your initial post rings true, even if there was a lot of other stuff going on behind the scenes. I'm not sure there has been anyone since who has had a bigger impact in terms of pure skepticism, well apart from perhaps Carl Sagan.
 
Speaking of skeptics I still occasionally hear from James Oberg. Recently I recd. an email from him (to a group I am a part of) that involved a claim by Hillary Clinton that she wrote NASA back in the early 60's and she wanted to know how to go about being an astronaut. (This was in the news not too long ago.) Clinton claimed that she was turned down because she was a woman. This created controversy as there were those who claimed she made it up. I invited Oberg on DMR to discuss NASA hiring practices, etc. from the 60's until now, etc. I still have never heard back from him.

Decker
 
Klass played his part well. I do not know if he was a part ot the deception or not but he played is part very well. As far as I am conerned .. Phil was BOUGHT AND PAID FOR ... and anything else is open for bids. There it is ... take it or leave it ...

Decker
 
Decker said:
Klass played his part well. I do not know if he was a part ot the deception or not but he played is part very well. As far as I am conerned .. Phil was BOUGHT AND PAID FOR ... and anything else is open for bids. There it is ... take it or leave it ...

Decker
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You just answered my question before I asked. I always thought Klass come across like an attack dog on a short leash.
 
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