The March 21, 2010 Show - Cattle Mutilations

[Tom From Hong Kong]

Well what you are describing is a classic example of terrorism. Terrorism is usually done with some end in mind such as political or social change. You have to wonder what end result this terrorism is supposed to produce. Don't ranch here? Don't raise cattle?

Trainedobserver, some may argue that the purpose is to create a foundation of fear so that if evidence of the existence of the UFO phenomenon ever was disseminated across the broader population the government could better control the citizenry and the overall situation. Some would point to Ronald Reagan's speech in front of the United Nations where he warned of an alien threat as evidence of U.S. government thinking behind the scenes. Who knows, perhaps certain individuals in the government have come to a view on the abduction phenomenon (a religious interpretation), or take Dr. Jacobs' views seriously (recall Budd Hopkins' story of the U.N official who supposedly saw a live abduction taking place in lower Manhattan right off of the FDR expressway in the middle of the night, after their automobiles stalled alongside with some other bystanders).

I also don't get the mutilations occurring during the birthing process. Wouldn't that be difficult for a human agency to execute, and wouldn't they at least let the calf be born before decapitating it? (remember no traces are left at the scene of the crime). My recollection is that L.M.H. first developed the theory that UFOs were responsible based upon what she was directly hearing from the cattlemen and farmers to begin with.

The whole cattle mutilation phenomenon is both baffling and comletely twisted.

 

[jkoci]

I just got done listening to the show. First off, I must say that Chris did a great job. The other guests did a good job of stating their observations and theories. The food chain take was interesting however I agree with some of the others who have posted in that it seems to be odd to go through all of the strangeness just to sample livestock.

 

[trainedobserver]

The whole cattle mutilation phenomenon is both baffling and comletely twisted.

I am totally there with that statement.

 

[jratcliff]

I really enjoyed the show as well but I had a few questions that I was a bit surprised were not discussed. The first has already been brought up on this thread. If some disease control center wanted to do legitimate research into the spread of prions (which was brought up in the discussion as a high probability explanation) why the heck would they go through all of this trouble which is completely unnecessary?

Purchasing cattle is a lot cheaper than running helicopters and a big military program. If you suggest that they don't want people to know they are doing the research, once again, covering up who is purchasing the cattle is a lot easier of a 'black op' than flying helicopters all over the place.

The other question I have that didn't get discussed is that, if some element of the US military is behind this, then this is something which (unlike the truly paranormal) can actually be solved through investigative methods.

For this to be perpetrated by human agents implies that a vast, vast, vast, conspiracy involving thousands, if not tens of thousands, of individuals are involved.

I find it difficult to believe that thousands of American military personnel are involved in such disturbing acts in total secret. My experience with military personnel is that they are themselves strong patriots, view themselves as the protector of liberties and freedoms, protectors of the American people and the United States constitution.

They are young men and women who grew up among the rest of us. They are our brothers, sisters, uncles, and friends. Many of them grew up in rural areas and have a proud tradition of being part of the farming community. Having grown up on a farm myself, I know how strongly these individuals feel about personal property rights.

So, I am seriously supposed to believe that thousands of good men and women are perpetrating these acts for decades, in direct violation of the rights of American citizens, horrible, horrific, grotesque acts, and not one of them, not a single one, ever had a twinge of conscience and had to unburden their soul?

If there is a human element, then we need to appeal to the humans behind it. Encourage them to come out, and tell the tale.

Chris, how many people who fly the black helicopters, how many doctors who perform these completely and totally unnecessary operations in the field, have you spoken too?

Just as with UFOs, I find it harder to believe there is a human element involved than I do the paranormal. The paranormal (the truly strange, weird, bizarre, and ephemeral) has been with us for centuries. We have never found the answer and anyone who seriously studies the history of the paranormal is prepared to acknowledge that we probably never will know the answer.

I will readily accept that strange shit happens that we cannot get an explanation for.

But, if you want me to believe that tens of thousands of American citizens and members of our armed forces will abandon their conscience and commit the most heinous acts in direct violation of the American constitution and our liberties, I find that really, really, really, hard to believe without a giant pile of evidence.

So, you see helicopters. Great, who is flying them? What is their name, rank, and serial number? Where did they go to high school? What is their home town? Why do they agree to perform these horrific acts? What is their justification? Why do they remain silent? How can *all* of them remain silent?

My opinion of humanity is much higher than that. I do not easily believe that a vast cabal of black ops personell conduct barbaric acts of terror designed to create fear in the population.

Let's be clear.. in no uncertain terms. If you are a research organization there are about a thousand easier ways to get tissue samples from livestock in our food chain than the scenario outlined in cattle mutilations.

As Jacques Vallee observed, these operations are not about 'scientific research' they are about creating terror in the populace. Something I will readily believe the paranormal is behind, but I am very skeptical that our fine men and women in the military are involved in.

Where is the evidence? Not a single member of these supposed black-ops has felt a twinge of conscience and come forward in all of these years?

John

 

[trainedobserver]

I am more inclined to believe that cattle mutilations are caused by natural causes such as misunderstood predator or insect activity than I would some human agency. As a means of creating terror it seems horribly inefficient as only a small number of people (relatively speaking) even know that these things occur.

If someone wanted to instill terror in the populace you'd think they'd be doing this to people and dropping them into WalMart parking lots or walking trails at 2 in the morning in neat little piles or something like that. Doing bizarre surgical procedures on cattle in remote ranching communities where they are more likely than not to be interpreted as predator activity just doesn't instill a lot of "terror" in anyone. I mean really now. You'd assume someone having the know-how and technology to perform extremely stealthy operations like this would have the intelligence to put together a strategy that would actually work.

It seems that whatever is doing this doesn't care if the aftermath is found. This indifference smacks of natural causes to me. My jury is still out but I can't put together a theory that includes humans or non-human intelligences that makes any sense tactically or strategically. However, trying to attribute human motivations to non-humans (be that animals, insects, or unknown what-evers from wherever) is of course futile.

Great show. I always enjoy the paracast and I'm still working my way through the archives.

 

[Kieran]

I'm not well- Researched about this subject. But Gene and Chris this was a informative show and I tend to agree more with Chris in how he views this particular area of UFO research.

 

[thefoundryman]

I am more inclined to believe that cattle mutilations are caused by natural causes such as misunderstood predator or insect activity than I would some human agency. As a means of creating terror it seems horribly inefficient as only a small number of people (relatively speaking) even know that these things occur.

Although, I agree with you about the Wal-Mart parking lot, If this was natural causes then it wouldn't have occured in a 40 mile grid pattern, corresponding to points in the geography, local to Alberta, Canada.
My grandfather was the claims adjuster that Chris mentioned on the show, and did some serious homework, on the locations of this phenomena, here in the 1980's, the only exception to the rule, was the mutilation that appeared on the property that his daughter,(my mother) her husband, and us three kids were living.

I sincerely wish ALL the guests on this show the best of luck with your research endeavors, this is a brutal phenomenon to collect data, because of the : "Shoot it, Shovel it, And Shut-up about it, attitude that BSE, and hoof-in-mouth has created for ranchers, not wanting to report to report suspicious deaths is likely creating a fear and ignorance philosophy, in what could be one of the greatest mysteries ever.

 

[Experiencer7]

If the government or some corporation were doing cattle mutilations then you would think it would be easier, safer, and more efficient to simply purchase the cattle and test them rather than risk exposure, law suits, and being shot at to perform some mundane thing like testing tissue samples. It's a bizarre thing to be sure that makes little sense.

I wish they would have elaborated on the problems with L.M.H.'s investigations into the subject.

The, (gods) choose their sacrifices. And they prefer free range. Perhaps someone is trying to protect the public by doing what cultures throughout history have done., appeasing predatory, godlike entities with lesser sacrifices., keeping the snakes fed.

 

[hoveringobject]

This topic is fascinating and I'm surprised there isn't more interest and general buzz about it in the paranormal community. We're not dealing with questionable cell phone pics, shaky, unfocused video or secondhand stories here. It's the only high strangeness mystery I can think of where actual physical evidence is at the center of each individual incident and yet after at least 50 YEARS of cases (in the US) we don't know how, why or what is going on.

The show was interesting to me in that it was the first time I've heard credible researchers of the phenomenon sound confident in their belief that the culprits are, and always have been, humans. I was hoping to hear more speculation on just HOW they have been going about this for decades without ever being seen in the act, let alone caught. That is what boggles my mind. Are we to assume that they hover over the herd in a helicopter at 3am, lift the cow into the mid-air operating room, perform the surgery and drop the cow back down later without being seen? Did the tools/technology even exist in the 60's that would allow for such a large scale stealth operation? Is it feasible that the government and/or military has been trying to scare small ranchers out of business for 50 years by, not only killing, but surgically mutilating an occasional head of cattle? If the motive is to monitor a food chain contamination, why go to such strange lengths and why resort to criminal means?

Chris, Ted and Phillip all mentioned cases where UFOs or anomalous lights were seen in conjunction with mutilations, but seemed to brush that off. I have no doubt that human piloted helicopters are on the scene of many cases, but wonder in what capacity. I think it's hasty to chock it up to gov't/military with so many unexplainable aspects involved.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

This topic is fascinating and I'm surprised there isn't more interest and general buzz about it in the paranormal community.

The phenomenon is the bloody red-haired stepchild of the paranormal. Like the mutilations, the topic of beef cattle as a protein source is a blind spot in western culture that practically no one is willing to address. It is a bloody out of sight/out of mind closet subject.

Are we to assume that they hover over the herd in a helicopter at 3am, lift the cow into the mid-air operating room, perform the surgery and drop the cow back down later without being seen?

Not quite. The animals are probably lifted and taken to a mobile laboratory (semi truck w/ a retractable roof?) experimented upon and then dropped back in the pasture at a different location. As I mentioned on the show, there have been upwards of 400 chopper sightings seen in and around mute sites, including a few seen performing these operations directly.

Did the tools/technology even exist in the 60's that would allow for such a large scale stealth operation?

Yes, we had the tools, talent and technology.

Is it feasible that the government and/or military has been trying to scare small ranchers out of business for 50 years by, not only killing, but surgically mutilating an occasional head of cattle?

The PTB are not necessarily trying to scare small ranchers out of business, they are enacting what appears to be a program of gradual societal control.

If the motive is to monitor a food chain contamination, why go to such strange lengths and why resort to criminal means?

There appear to be multiple agendas at work and the process as it has been designed accomplishes several goals at once. Monitoring the food-chain and enacting a program of societal control are two of the main benefits, but there may be others.

Chris, Ted and Phillip all mentioned cases where UFOs or anomalous lights were seen in conjunction with mutilations, but seemed to brush that off. I have no doubt that human piloted helicopters are on the scene of many cases, but wonder in what capacity. I think it's hasty to chock it up to gov't/military with so many unexplainable aspects involved.

You need to re-listen to the show. We did NOT brush this off! Quite the opposite, in fact. We all agreed there is what appears to be a paranormal/high-strange element at the core of the phenomenon. I personally feel that this fact ties into the ancient practice of animal sacrifice. If I thought that this was all due to government activity, I wouldn't be as fascinated and dogged about investigating cases. I have always sensed an ancient predatory, paranormal presence at work at the core of the mystery and that there is a ritualistic element involved. I pretty much stand alone with this manner of thinking.

---------- Post added at 09:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 AM ----------

Chris, how many people who fly the black helicopters, how many doctors who perform these completely and totally unnecessary operations in the field, have you spoken too?

In answer to your question, I have spoken with law enforcement officials who have been told about a secret government program of monitoring cattle. One source was told that there is a secret team performing ritualized blood sacrifice on livestock and that congress is aware of this but cannot ascertain what group is behind the program or why they are doing this. Btw: why are you being so argumentative? Was it something I did or didn't say? I have spent almost 20 years, spent thousands of dollars, traveled thousands of miles and made hundreds of phone-calls and put my neck and reputation on the line. What have you done out in the field? You (and others like you) need to get involved, do creative research and help out. I can only do so much. You seem to be interested in the subject, so get out of your cozy armchair; turn off your computer, roll up your sleeves, put some Vicks under your nose and get busy! I'd welcome the help, believe me![/QUOTE]

 

[Paul Kimball]

You often hear people saying that it's hard, or virtually impossible, to get veterinary experts, including pathologists, who would be the experts you would want investigating, interested in animal mutilations.

Well, that's not quite true.

http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2006/01/canadian-veterinary-journal-article-on.html

This links to an article I referenced in Fields of Fear from Canadian Veterinary Journal, Volume 30, September 1989, pp. 742 - 747. In it, the writers - one from the Alberta Animal Health Division of the provincial government, and the other from the Wyoming State Veterinary laboratory at the Department of Verterinary Sciences, Univesity of Wyoming, took a close look at animal mutilations.

Needless to say, the article never gets cited by mute "experts" like LMH.

The authors do not completely rule out other possibilities, but rather present a pretty conclusive analysis of why animal mutes can be explained in prosaic terms, and a note that before any other possibilities can be entertained, the more prosaic possibilities need to be examined in detail (left unsaid, but implied - by qualified and competent personnel) and ruled out beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Canadian Veterinary Journal, Volume 30, September 1989, pp. 742 - 747. In it, the writers - one from the Alberta Animal Health Division of the provincial government, and the other from the Wyoming State Veterinary laboratory at the Department of Verterinary Sciences, Univesity of Wyoming, took a close look at animal mutilations...The authors do not completely rule out other possibilities, but rather present a pretty conclusive analysis of why animal mutes can be explained in prosaic terms, and a note that before any other possibilities can be entertained, the more prosaic possibilities need to be examined in detail (left unsaid, but implied - by qualified and competent personnel) and ruled out beyond a reasonable doubt.

I agree that a sizeable percentage of so-called "mutilations" are prozaic. To the untrained eye unusual-looking scavenger action can appear high-strange. My litmus test is cut hair. Predators, scavengers and insects do not cut hair in a straight line. This is the first thing I look for and if cut hair follicles are present, IMO this is a true mutilation. There are other scientific papers that are often overlooked including the excellent, thorough work done by veterinarian pathologist Dr George Onet at NIDS and the paper A Study of Bovine Excision Sites From 1993 to 1997 published by WC Levengood.

 

[Kandinsky]

I've listened to the first half of the show and found it very interesting. It's an area that turned me off years ago due to the hysterical theories and wild conspiracies. The mystery books of my childhood are discredited in my mind...likewise the accounts they contained are suspect by association. 'Bermuda Triangle' and the so-called 'lost civilisations' that some guys like to believe built the Pyramids and other ancient monuments....sigh. Likewise, the 'Snippy' account has grown in complexity ever since and it's pointless to repeat the same problems again. Did anyone buy that ebay Snippy skeleton?

Despite all my preconceptions, I really enjoyed the interview. As other posters have mentioned, the enthusiasm of the guests and their willingness to consider a number of explanations was refreshing. The focus on terrestrial explanations surprised me as I expected the ETH to be dragged out once more. Speculation was intelligent and informed and accepted the sheer mystery and confusion surrounding the subject.

I listen to the Paracast whilst driving and will listen to the next half tomorrow. In the meantime, I'll be checking out the subject and the guests' sites for more information. THere's a lot to being going on with already. The 'food chain' conspiracy is very novel and intriguing...

So far I've read an old FOIA document relating to the Colarado mutilations of the mid-70s. Colorado Senator Haskell was concerned about the number of cases and contacted the FBI. The file is available here... http://foia.fbi.gov/cattle/cattle1.pdf

 

[Vomitor]

This was a GREAT episode. Its a topic that deserves a whole lot more attention (outside silly average history channel "documentaries"). You guys should seriously try to get this information down into a book at some point, to make it more coherent and approachable for anyone.

And Chris, you did really well. And a fine trickster ye be .

Maybe we can have a Biedny vs. O' brien trickster battle when david gets back? Or maybe not...

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I don't want to raise unrealistic expectations. David's departure is, as he said to me in his letter in February (as posted in this forum by the way), permanent. But we're always looking for would-be Trickster voices.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

This is the link to his letter and my response:

David Biedny

 

[Vomitor]

Ok, i had missed that whole letter thing, not being around the forums for a while now. Well, i look forward to whatever is going to happen. As you've proven so far the show is still moving weight

 

[truthnotterror]

Finished listening to the show myself, and was quite pleased with the wide range of possible causes. I was not aware of the contamination angle and it did give me food for thought. Although, the contaminated food chain angle, does seem like quite a far stretch of resources ( reports of black helicopters, special forces etc ) that can be accomplished by a public investigation (however legitimate or illegitimate) . The Mad cow disease was given its fair share of the public limelight and investigation. I am by no means proposing that the food contamination angle isnt correct, just shedding my own thoughts on the subject. All in all the show was very informative and quite enjoyable. Great work guys !

 

[Beamo]

Gene, the show, in my opinion, with the exception of the episode with Jim Marrs, who is a complete lunatic, is doing better than ever. Sad to see David go, but but happy to see you doing such a good job with things. Keep up the good work...

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I don't agree with Marrs. But I don't think he's a lunatic any more than I regard Glenn Beck as a lunatic. Call them entertainers in their own way.

At least Marrs makes you think even if a theory is fundamentally wacky.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Mr Jim Marrs at least he does his research and its better than the crap plastered on the mainstream media these days.