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The most convincing case of an Identified Alien Craft (IAC) is?

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trainedobserver said:
Burnt State's UFO report seems to indicate manufactured vehicles, manned or unmanned, searching for or gathering something under a common direction. Flying Saucers. Organized, intelligent behavior utilizing unrecognizable technology for some inexplicable end. Makes you want to say "alien" doesn't it? Is it though? Does putting that label pile too much baggage on it and steer our thinking down worn paths? I don't know.
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To be fair, the COMETA scientists (and other ufo researchers who agree with their judgment) didn't and don't "say 'alien'." What they said is that "the ETH is the best available hypothesis" based on the available evidence. If you can offer what you consider a competing 'best available hypothesis', what is it? And what is the evidence and reasoning supporting it?

Someone whose opinions about such matters I take pretty seriously told me the other night that it appears that we are in an ant-farm. There are the keepers, the gawkers, and the mean little kid next door that likes to mess with the ants. If we are living inside a manufactured and controlled environment created for purposes we cannot possibly comprehend, where the mechanisms of our creators perform incomprehensible tasks within the confines of our "ant-farm", it would explain a lot now wouldn't it? That is just such a disturbing thought.
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Yes, it's a disturbing thought. What is the evidence for taking it seriously?
 
Burnt State said:
Whether you take it literally or not is not the question. The question is why do people see these things in the first place and why is it so culturally patterned? I think it's a bit of a stretch to go from folklore to fundamentalism unless you are considering organised religion as the equivalent to tales of leprechauns and gnomes.

The foo fighters do fit a certain pattern of ufology that is undeniable, which includes a distinct interest in our low level, violent technology. As lights in the sky that appear to have maneuverable skills of a very high order under intelligent control we can continue to describe, analyse and both speculate and infer, as our intellect will.
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Indeed. Moreover, not all 'foo fighters' were described by the air crews simply as 'lights' or 'spheres'. And we have also learned in the last few years that both Churchill and Roosevelt received reports of pilot sightings during WWII of ufos described in the terms we are familiar with since the late 1940s.

From another post, Burnt State, I'm wondering what you base the following statement on: "99% of what we experience as reality is based on previous mental recordings combined with 1% of our actual sensory input." In my experience even in ordinary day to day life we absorb new information with every human encounter and anything else that takes our attention even momentarily.
 
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lancemoody said:
Constance,

Oberg immediately admitted that the offhand remark he made about something he had heard elsewhere was wrong. It was just a comment on a forum and not followed up by anyone--Oberg didn't proffer it as definitive proof. Bragailia later read the comment and ran with it. Using UFO believer research standards, he never contacted Oberg. I did and Oberg immediately admitted that he was wrong.

We told Bragalia on day one that the pictures were taken by Loomis not the Trents but Bragalia doubled down and made up a story about having someone who worked for LIFE magazine who confirmed that the ladder pictures were from the Trents. It took several days of myself and Gilles Fernadez bringing together evidence aided by David Rudiak. Finally seeing what a fool he was making himself Bragalia published his cowardly and dishonest piece that blamed Oberg for his own mistakes--no mention was made of the made up LIFE employee anymore, naturally.

So here are UFO debunkers working with believers to debunk a debunking.

That anyone swallowed Bragalia's bullshit is sad.

Lance
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That's interesting information. I'm wondering if Oberg himself eventually contacted Bragalia and told him that the information he had posted on some forum was 'wrong' (and if not why not). And how Oberg 'knew' at the point when you called him (on or around whatever day "day one" was?) that he'd passed along incorrect information.

Do you have a link to Bragalia's 'cowardly and dishonest piece' retracting what he'd written about the photos and blaming Oberg for the misdirection? I sense that Bragalia seems for a few days to have placed more faith in Oberg's statement than in what you and others were telling him in emails or phone calls? There seems to be more here than meets the eye, but is it worth pursuing? Probably not, given the confusions and interpersonal conflicts often bred in forums and blogs on the ufo subject.
 
manxman said:
i will take a look for the case now, keywords in my search will be theodolite radar film ufo.
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The theodolite sightings (and there were many of them, not just at White Sands but at various other locations in the US in the late 1940s and early 50s) were among the very best early evidence of the reality of sizeable ufos in earth's atmosphere -- apparently having a close look at our new high-altitude balloons.
 
Soupie said:
But how do we know what the "current technological and biologic" capabilities of mankind are? The answer is "we don't."

If you define "alien" as "any object originating from non-human technology so far as is public knowledge," then sure, we can point to some cases with multiple witnesses and radar traces that indicate just such an object.

The problem is, we - who only have access to public knowledge - can't say whether these objects are evidence of current human technology so far unknown to the public. They could also be craft from an unknown terrestrial intelligence/race. They could be human time travelers come back to look at the Earth when it still had trees and wildlife on it. They could be humans from another dimension coming to visit on holiday.

The point is, just because an object exhibits tech capabilities beyond what is publicly known to be within human limits, we - the non-elite - still can't say what it is. We can only say: "That's not any human tech we are aware of."
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How true: we are in general kept in the dark and fed bullshit. On the hand, we have the testimony of some whistleblowers who seem to be honest people, not apparently drugged or operating under mind-control. The two most credible for me are Edgar Mitchell and Bernard Haisch, both of whom tell us that they've been informed by insiders in the black projects that alien technology is being back-engineered there. And reason tells us that, even if the non-elected PTB managing the very well-funded black projects of the last several decades have made significant progress in that back-engineering, that cannot explain (and indeed lends credence to) the above-human tech capabilities of ufos present in earth's skies since the 1940s.


ps: is that rabbit in your avatar eating home-made chocolate chip cookies? That's what they look like and I want some.
 
Burnt State said:
As we know, truth is stranger than fiction; consequently, it behooves us to pay attention to both our folkloric traditions and consistent witness reports, as this smoke surely is indicative of some kind of fire, no? Corroborating evidence is always the desire but until a new mechanism is invented to consistently record and document what is seen that's unlikely.
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Nope, sorry. Smoke is just smoke in this case. Affirming the Consequent.
 
Constance said:
Yes, that was too bad about the classic photo of the Belgian triangle, but there were other photos of the ufos sighted during the year and a half of the Belgian 'flap' and several hundred investigated sightings, some by impeccable witnesses.

I hadn't heard about this attempt originating with Oberg to debunk the McMinnville photos and was impressed to read that Anthony Bragalia promoted it. Also surprised and disappointed that Bragalia didn't do further research concerning the photo of the Trent's child on the ladder, which is developed in the comments at your link, Burnt State, as well as at the link below. I've learned over the years that one should not take Oberg at his word, and this latest attempt of his makes it clearer than ever that Oberg is a dyed-in-the-wool debunker.
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I don't know how Oberg is involved with this.

I also don't find the boy on the ladder at all persuasive.
 
Constance said:
To be fair, the COMETA scientists (and other ufo researchers who agree with their judgment) didn't and don't "say 'alien'." What they said is that "the ETH is the best available hypothesis" based on the available evidence. If you can offer what you consider a competing 'best available hypothesis', what is it? And what is the evidence and reasoning supporting it?
Yes, it's a disturbing thought. What is the evidence for taking it seriously?
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One man's alien is another's Extraterrestrial and all of this is all just wild speculation mind you. I conveniently try not to believe anything about the subject if I can help it.

Given the long history of the phenomenon (See Wonders in the Sky: Unexplained Aerial Objects from Antiquity to Modern Times) it appears that we are engaged by something either native to the planet or operating for all intents and purposes within the solar system itself. Observing nature we see several different orders of life, each enmeshed in interdependent systems. Our assumption that we are the dominant life form on Earth may be false. We may be as unable to comprehend these higher order systems and entities any more than the bacteria in our stomachs can be aware of the complex economic system that brings food to them.

Is that what is going on? I don't know.
 
I see the so-call northern tier sightings at Malmstrom and Minot ICBM bases as hard to simply dismiss. Why are high ranking officers tasked with turning the keys on weapons of mass destruction, and those on site to guard them, coming forth with renditions of events outside the envelope of conventional reality? I don't need to believe what they saw was extra terrestrial or even physically real. Just a logical reason for what sound like sincere claims on the part of people not known play pranks with nukes.
 
wheres the photo then ?, i would like to see it, i read your link, and watched your vid, so wheres the photo that convinces you, surely your are not talking about a shadow convincing you, if it even was/is a shadow.
 
trainedobserver said:
There is also the problem that all UFOs are not the same and may not even be the same type of "thing" at all. Some may be a "craft", meaning a manufactured vehicle of some kind. Others may be life-forms or something even stranger. The point is we don't know and as far as I know, we have no way of telling in most cases.

Burnt State's UFO report seems to indicate manufactured vehicles, manned or unmanned, searching for or gathering something under a common direction. Flying Saucers. Organized, intelligent behavior utilizing unrecognizable technology for some inexplicable end. Makes you want to say "alien" doesn't it? Is it though? Does putting that label pile too much baggage on it and steer our thinking down worn paths? I don't know.

Someone whose opinions about such matters I take pretty seriously told me the other night that it appears that we are in an ant-farm. There are the keepers, the gawkers, and the mean little kid next door that likes to mess with the ants. If we are living inside a manufactured and controlled environment created for purposes we cannot possibly comprehend, where the mechanisms of our creators perform incomprehensible tasks within the confines of our "ant-farm", it would explain a lot now wouldn't it? That is just such a disturbing thought.
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My friend, don't let him fool you, there are tremendous nuggets in this thread! Who said that? Oh, that's right, back on track here...

No question, the phenomenon, is really more of a phenomena with respect for an overall going over.

There is little to no question in my mind that what you forward, that I took the liberty to embolden above, *is* the crux of an entirety of considerations. This is to state that it spans a ridiculously powerful distance, and that distance is almost indefinably infinite in terms of expanse. I will call this, imagination's chasm.

Your friend is IMO correct. This is exactly what the late great Charles Fort contended. Albeit I don't think you are too far away from "God and his handy work" in a classic sense here. The ant farm is merely the Earth which humans were afforded by God in a thousand different belief systems.

The bottom line is that we seem to be a tiny part of something vastly larger than we ourselves can readily perceive or access.
 
Jeff Davis said:
Albeit I don't think you are too far away from "God and his handy work" in a classic sense here....The bottom line is that we seem to be a tiny part of something vastly larger than we ourselves can readily perceive or access.
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Now there is a prickly bit, best approached with a stick in hand. Are some UFO and paranormal activity shadows of the elf machinery, the Kuroko, the cosmic stagehands and maintenance men who keep this side-show attraction open? Are all of the concepts of gods and extraterrestrials vain attempts to hold the inconceivable and unpalatable notions that humanity is alternately the kept creatures of nonhuman intelligences or flukes of the universe at bay?

We hate and war on one another over misconceptions about ourselves and our place in the universe. Imagine what would happen to the collective human psyche if we had proof that we are living inside a manufactured and controlled environment created for purposes only the non-human creators can understand. A new religion or two maybe, but I wonder if we wouldn't just continue on in our daily routines or ruts, as the case may be, and just accept and forget it.
 
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trainedobserver said:
Now there is a prickly bit, best approached with a stick in hand. Are some UFO and paranormal activity shadows of the elf machinery, the Kuroko, the cosmic stagehands and maintenance men who keep this side-show attraction open? Are all of the concepts of gods and extraterrestrials vain attempts to hold the inconceivable and unpalatable notions that humanity is alternately the kept creatures of nonhuman intelligences or flukes of the universe at bay?

We hate and war on one another over misconceptions about ourselves and our place in the universe. Imagine what would happen to the collective human psyche if we had proof that we are living inside a manufactured and controlled environment created for purposes only the non-human creators can understand? A new religion or two maybe, but I wonder if we wouldn't just continue on in our daily routines or ruts, as the case may be, and just accept and forget it.
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The collective "ego" would surely be altered. Such a revelation could serve to humble humanity.
 
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