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The Official Paracast Political Thread! — Part Three

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Lieutenant Sulu's tweet on Russia gate

"If the CIA had found Russia had helped Hillary, and she had won by a razor thin margin, how do you suppose the GOP and its base would react?"
 
Tyger said:
Interesting prediction........

Nobel Winner Who Predicted Fall Of Soviet Union Just Made A Prediction About Trump
LINK: Nobel Winner Who Predicted Fall Of Soviet Union Just Made A Prediction About Trump
TEXT: "In 1980, a Norwegian sociologist published a book that predicted the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics would crater to internal contradictions and tension in a matter of 10 years. As is now commonly known history, the USSR did collapse, in 1989, and Johan Galtung was propelled into academic stardom.

"Galtung, now faculty at the University of Hawaii, also made waves in 2009 when he published a book predicting a similar fate for the United States by 2025. His 15 potentially catastrophic points of contraction now eerily align with social and cultural conflicts surrounding Donald Trump’s election to the presidency. The professor told Motherboard earlier this week that Trump fits the bill of what his book refers to as the 'strong leader', and predicted a major decline in US power over the next ten years, possibly including a Soviet-style collapse.

'The collapse has two faces,' Galtung told the website. 'Other countries refuse to be good allies: and the USA has to do the killing themselves, by bombing from high altitudes, drones steered by computer from an office, Special Forces killing all over the place. Both are happening today, except for Northern Europe, which supports these wars, for now. That will probably not continue beyond 2020, so I stand by that deadline.'
​
"Here are a few examples of how Galtung’s 2009 contradictions, as outlined in Motherboard, are playing out since the election. This isn’t intended to be an exercise in sociology, but rather a current, fresh look at some of the many contradictions as they have emerged over the last few months.

"Economic contradictions
Trump promises to save middle-class jobs from outsourcing, then uses his vice president to arrange tax incentives for a company (Carrier) that will lay off 800 people anyway.​

Military contradictions

Political contradictions
Trump lambastes established political leaders, including Mitt Romney and President Barack Obama, during his campaign, then turns to them for help filling his cabinet.​

Cultural contradictions
Trump promises to build a wall and deport millions of illegal immigrants, then tells Time magazine, in an interview about young immigrants currently somewhat protected under President Obama’s executive action, that he is going to 'to work something out that’s going to make (them) happy and proud.'​

Social contradictions
Trump campaigns and is elected on the back of largely middle-class Americans without college degrees, then appoints as labor secretary a fast food executive who has actively opposed improvements to minimum wage and labor laws that hover below 1968 levels.​

(For the more sociologically accurate explanation of these points, read Galtung’s interview.)

"The silver lining in this unmitigated disaster? Once the U.S. Empire falls, Galtung says, perhaps the U.S. Republic will stand a chance at achieving its promises."


US Power Will Decline Under Trump, Says Futurist Who Predicted Soviet Collapse
LINK: US Power Will Decline Under Trump, Says Futurist Who Predicted Soviet Collapse
Click to expand...


Interesting aspect but if you accept this you'd have to argue that the conditions that needed to be in place were laid out and implemented (by all the administrations maybe since Reagan) long before Trump ever thought of becoming President and/or he's another link in the chain and his election was a done deal and for that to happen both parties would have had to have a hand in it, as well as the Russians, maybe even the Clintons.Somebody finally got their man in office. Those that spoke of a new world order are/were onto something..

Or it was meant to happen, maybe those people that are quick to talk of the Bible and Revelations may be onto something.
 
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Wade said:
Interesting aspect but if you accept this you'd have to argue that the conditions that needed to be in place were laid out and implemented (by all the administrations maybe since Reagan) long before Trump ever thought of becoming President and/or he's another link in the chain and his election was a done deal and for that to happen both parties would have had to have a hand in it, as well as the Russians, maybe even the Clintons.Somebody finally got their man in office. Those that spoke of a new world order are/were onto something..

Or it was meant to happen, maybe those people that are quick to talk of the Bible and Revelations may be onto something.
Click to expand...
Galtung made his predictions prior to Bush and Trump - but when Bush was elected, he shortened the time-line. Now with Trump, he is shortening it yet again. He could not have predicted Bush and Trump - but the forces they both represent have been in play for a while. [In terms of who 'should' be president, one could argue Jeb Bush, or Joe Biden, or Bernie Sanders - but very little difference as long as Congress remained deadlocked with Republican control - different president would just have slowed the inevitable.]

It's not about individuals per se - though they are the 'carriers' - it's about ideas and how people take up those ideas. Ayn Rand was/is/has been a powerful influence on key people who have found their way into the political arena. Reagan/Thatcher and Neo-Liberalism have been (one of) the carriers - but that tendency was there even in the 1930's pushing against FDR - and before that, shooting down the Unionists, and so it goes back. [Don't undersetimate the intellectual purge that took place in the US in the 1950's - before and aft - with the 'Red Scare' - less overtly violent than Mao's Cultural Revolution in China in the 1960's but it achieved similar results. US citizens have been 'toeing the line' ever since that scary time - fearful of being seen as espousing communism and socialism and anything else the governemnt made clear was verboten thinking.]

It’s Ayn Rand’s America now: Republicans have stripped the country of its last shred of morality
LINK: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/12/its...last-shred-of-morality/#.WEyHJbdMvVU.facebook

Some individuals simply took advantage of current trends to their advantage - like the Koch brothers with their "meta-narrative attacking collectivism in America." These processes evolve over time - and in the case of the Koch brothers, they took the time, and had the money, to slowly seed and salt the situation at the same time. I recall viividly the time in the late 1990's and early 2000's when big and small newspapers and local radio stations in the US were being bought up by large companies and eviscerated of their investigative reporting capacity. That takes foresight - that takes planning - with a goal.

How the Kochs Are Ghostwriting America's Story
TEXT: "Published on Feb 15, 2016: Thom Hartmann talks with Michael Winship, President-Writers Guild of America East & Senior Writer-BillMoyers.com, Website: www.wgaeast.org, about the Koch's meta-narrative attacking collectivism in America."

One doesn't have to go the route of thinking of a monolithic World Order or Revelations/End Times stuff to understand how and why these things are playing out. It's a very human story - and we could have easily made other choices: like with Gore in 2000 - what a different trajectory there, but the counter forces were strong and would not have given up - it would just have played out differently, maybe slower.

Basically what we have in the US is a serious dumbing down of the average citizen who does not have a good grasp of history and who we actually have been as a nation since our inception. Fundamentalist religions have a lot to answer for in this regard but the influences (and blame) can be cast across many societal institutions - particularly education, but not limited to that.

In the end, it is the sad irony that the very thing (some) voters thought they were voting against in voting for Trump was the very thing they were guaranteeing they would get by voting him in. The signs were there, they just weren't read properly. Voters were bamboozled (across years - by politicians - by news media outlets like FOX News, etc - the ground was prepared) - and one didn't need many to have that occur and change the game - given how many do not vote to begin with. Those who know the numbers and the 'rules' were able to game the system - and it just so happens that those with the the over-arching self-interest had the greater energy and purposeful intent to achieve their goal. [What is bizarre beyond bizarre is that those who now express an equal purposeful intent against the gamers - insisting the system be accountable - are greeted with jeers and cat-calls as though they are the spoilers - too ironic for words.]

How Trump Is Repeating the 1920s
TEXT: "Published on Dec 6, 2016: Big Picture Interview: Richard Eskow, The Zero Hour/Campaign for America's Future. Speaking of Trump cabinet picks - the next presidential administration is shaping up to be the richest in American history. The last time we saw this kind of plutocratic takeover of the government it led to the Great Depression. Are we about to witness a sequel to that disaster?"
 
Wade said:
Interesting aspect but if you accept this you'd have to argue that the conditions that needed to be in place were laid out and implemented (by all the administrations maybe since Reagan) long before Trump ever thought of becoming President and/or he's another link in the chain and his election was a done deal and for that to happen both parties would have had to have a hand in it, as well as the Russians, maybe even the Clintons. Somebody finally got their man in office. Those that spoke of a new world order are/were onto something.
Click to expand...
I would argue that it's not that kind of 'intelligence' behind these patterns of history. Ayn Rand did not have to be correct 100% - what she posited we can all identify as an aspect of human nature, in our own selves perhaps as well as in others. Enough people get on board with such ideas and we have the self-serving of the neo-cons pushing a nation into a fabricated war (Iraq) and the Bernie Madoffs of the world. People have tendencies - a wish not to rock the boat, especially when their livelihood depends on compliance - so there will be others canny enough to use those tendencies to control people for their own venal reasons, to an end many people aspire to: wealth, power, you name it.

For example we are looking at the very real potential for societal oppression (or suppression) and vindictive payback in the coming 4 years. The signs are everywhere - and those who for whatever reason are close to what is being unveiled (just regular folks like you and me) are bracing themselves. I am on a secure Facebook page that discusses what is going on and several people have voiced the view that Trump will go after anyone he perceives as 'against' him, or who spoke against him - be it on Facebook or on internet chat sites like this one - there are real concerns.

Consider that there will always be angry, ignorant people willing to do the 'dirty work' of intimidation. Trump supporters are engaging in it already - note the young 18 year old girl who dared ask Trump a question about his support of women - consider what she has had to endure for an entire year, with no end in sight. It does not appear that any of this is going to 'slow down'. There are plenty of people in society - who are neither morally nor ethically centered and many more who are disturbed - who will agree to perform payback for Trump - or join a police force to do the same. No 'conspiracy' per se - just human nature - a decsion by 'someone' who has gotten into power, to embrace dysfunction, rather than weed it out from public service.

There will always be a few - the cabal - who plot - but in my experience it rarely could ever achieve the conspiricy theorists' vision of a global elite (I could be wrong but that's the way I tend to think of these things). Rather it winds up being shared values - be they selfish or noble - that creates the arc of seeming all embracing 'unity' of intent. Though saying that I don't discount the shared visioning of a Putin and a Trump, or any other leaders. As much as we can unite in loving kindness towards each other, we can do the reverse as well. No somebody per se need be the driver.

So saying all of this - I doubt anyone anticipated Trump per se. Rather they indicated that conditions were ripe for a demagogue. Oligarchy and fascism were already rearing their hydra-head. Patterns were emerging, conditions were arising, forces were being set in motion (read 'forces' as human nature, emotions, fears, hates, etc) that in the past made for dangerous societal instability - with what history teaches are 'inevitable' outcomes. If not Trump, someone else, like him.
Wade said:
Or it was meant to happen, maybe those people that are quick to talk of the Bible and Revelations may be onto something.
Click to expand...
All of what is occurring was in our power to off-set - from the rushing on-set of abrupt climate change to oligarchy, fascism and the loss of our much accustomed rights.

Though as an esotericist there is the other side to all that appears among humanity: the spiritual. :cool: That's another thread.
 
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I am having fun considering the 'what if'. What if Clinton actually becomes president? :p

But this is interesting: "Just over a month after he called claims of a 'rigged' election 'delusional,' Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign chairman on Monday backed calls from a group of renegade electors to receive an intelligence briefing on alleged political interference by Russia – days before the Electoral College is set to vote."

Clinton campaign wants intel briefings for Electoral College members
LINK: Clinton campaign wants intel briefings for Electoral College members
TEXT: Hillary Clinton's campaign has thrown its support behind an effort to provide members of the Electoral College with intelligence briefings on Russian breaches of U.S. political organizations before the College formally votes to elect Donald Trump president next week.

"The bipartisan electors' letter raises very grave issues involving our national security. Electors have a solemn responsibility under the Constitution and we support their efforts to have their questions addressed," Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta said Monday, responding to a request for briefings by a group of electors.

Podesta's strongly worded statement signals a clear shift in strategy from Clinton and her team, who have until now shown no interest in questioning the legitimacy of last month's election. And it could crack the door to further challenges or give succor to some Democrats' long-shot hope that Trump's election could be upended when the Electoral College convenes December 19.

A large trove of Podesta's emails were released by WikiLeaks late in the campaign, and intelligence officials believe the emails were provided to the organization by the Russians.​
 
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Gene Steinberg said:
Especially considering his wife will be in Trump's cabinet. Of course, they knew this before the election, but he and his colleagues remained silent.
Click to expand...
Interesting that Electors are asking for the intel briefing on the matter - and Clinton's campaign is stepping up. One of the Electors includes the daughter of House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi - 9 Democrats and 1 Republican. Despite what he said to the press, McConnell 'rejected Sen. John McCain's call for a special panel to investigate Russian election interference' according to this article.

Electors want briefing on Russian interference
LINK: Electors want briefing on Russian interference before Electoral College vote
TEXT: Ten Electoral College electors have asked U.S. intelligence officials for more information on ongoing investigations surrounding President-elect Donald Trump’s relationship with Russia.

The group of electors, which includes the daughter of House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.), wrote an open letter to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper asking for the information ahead of their Dec. 19 meeting to formally vote for the next president.

“The Electors require to know from the intelligence community whether there are ongoing investigations into ties between Donald Trump, his campaign or associates, and Russian government interference in the election, the scope of those investigations, how far those investigations may have reached, and who was involved in those investigations,” the letter read. “We further require a briefing on all investigative findings, as these matters directly impact the core factors in our deliberations of whether Mr. Trump is fit to serve as President of the United States.”

Nine Democrats and one Republican signed the letter. The Republican, Christopher Suprun, has said that he won't vote for Trump when the Electoral College meets.

The Monday letter comes three days after The Washington Post reportedthat the CIA believes Russian hackers obtained and released, via WikiLeaks, Democratic National Committee emails to sway the election for Trump. Also on Monday, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) rejected Sen. John McCain's (R-Ariz.) call for a special panel to investigate Russian election interference.


​
 
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Lots of good ideas to speculate on in this video snippet.

Relevant section in the below video starts at about 1:30

Let's Put It All On The Table...
TEXT: "Published on Dec 12, 2016: Thom talks about the allegations that Russia hacked the election and the need for a complete investigation to make all the information public."
 
More interesting ideas.....

We Are Walking In To Dangerous Territory...
TEXT: "Published on Dec 12, 2016: Thom talks about the claims that Russia hacked our election, the use of the term 'adversary' in reference to China by the Trump Administration, and the reason why our nation should be careful."
 
Transcript of the Third Debate
LINK: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/third-debate-transcript.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

October 19: [on Russian interference]

CLINTON: Well, that’s because he’d rather have a puppet as president of the United States.

TRUMP: No puppet. No puppet.

CLINTON: And it’s pretty clear...

TRUMP: You’re the puppet!

CLINTON: It’s pretty clear you won’t admit...

TRUMP: No, you’re the puppet.

CLINTON: ... that the Russians have engaged in cyberattacks against the United States of America, that you encouraged espionage against our people, that you are willing to spout the Putin line, sign up for his wish list, break up NATO, do whatever he wants to do, and that you continue to get help from him, because he has a very clear favorite in this race.

So I think that this is such an unprecedented situation. We’ve never had a foreign government trying to interfere in our election. We have 17 — 17 intelligence agencies, civilian and military, who have all concluded that these espionage attacks, these cyberattacks, come from the highest levels of the Kremlin and they are designed to influence our election. I find that deeply disturbing.

WALLACE: Secretary Clinton...

CLINTON: And I think it’s time you take a stand...

TRUMP: She has no idea whether it’s Russia, China, or anybody else.

CLINTON: I am not quoting myself.

TRUMP: She has no idea.

CLINTON: I am quoting 17...

TRUMP: Hillary, you have no idea.

CLINTON: ... 17 intelligence — do you doubt 17 military and civilian...

TRUMP: And our country has no idea.

CLINTON: ... agencies.

TRUMP: Yeah, I doubt it. I doubt it.

CLINTON: Well, he’d rather believe Vladimir Putin than the military and civilian intelligence professionals who are sworn to protect us. I find that just absolutely...

(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: She doesn’t like Putin because Putin has outsmarted her at every step of the way.
 
Isn't it interesting that Trump's most vociferous supporters. who filled this thread with link after link pointing to fake news about the opposition now cannot voice much in the way of arguments over the current concerns about Trump.

They complained about the decisions to delete a few posts with personal attacks and ran away. Or maybe they realized that Trump won, but they lost the argument.
 
Gene Steinberg said:
Isn't it interesting that Trump's most vociferous supporters. who filled this thread with link after link pointing to fake news about the opposition now cannot voice much in the way of arguments over the current concerns about Trump.

They complained about the decisions to delete a few posts with personal attacks and ran away. Or maybe they realized that Trump won, but they lost the argument.
Click to expand...

Maybe we simply have better things to do. :)
 
Walter, you're one of my favorite Paracast guests, even though our politics don't align.

But I suspect a couple of the others found it difficult to discuss their stuff in a civil fashion.
 
Gene Steinberg said:
Isn't it interesting that Trump's most vociferous supporters. who filled this thread with link after link pointing to fake news about the opposition now cannot voice much in the way of arguments over the current concerns about Trump.
Click to expand...
Exactly, and it's a huge disappointment. I - for one, anyway - really did want to hear reactions and impressions of the various events that have been happening since Trump has been transitioning to president - from all sides - especially the way he has clearly been stacking the deck in favor of corporate power in his up-coming administration.

If the vote for Trump was suppose to be a vote against 'business-as-usual' - what do his supporters think of Trump's very much insider business-as-usual crony choices?

But more intriguing - does Hillary Clinton look more appealing in the face of Trump's complete disregard of everything he promised when running?

Gene Steinberg said:
They complained about the decisions to delete a few posts with personal attacks and ran away. Or maybe they realized that Trump won, but they lost the argument.
Click to expand...
Good way to put it - they won the election but lost the argument. They've been 'had'. Trump conned them. And now we reap the whirlwind. :(
 
Some really great discussion here - very balanced. Interesting - especially for Trump supporters, but I'll bet no one actually listens to the video. A shame if they don't.

There Are Too Many 'What-If's' For Us To Go In To Cold War Mode! (w/Guest: Stephen Cohen)
TEXT: "Published on Dec 13, 2016: Thom speaks with Professor Stephen Cohen, Contributing Editor at The Nation, about the increasing anti-Russian sentiment and the questions we should all be asking before we ramp up the push toward war."
 
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