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The Problem with Ufology Today

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Rock

NSA doesn't advertise all their activities.

In the UFO forum, see thread - NSA Disclosures of UFO Data.
Open C Comint
lines represent words that are blackened out.

One UFO (Probably a balloon) moved slowly from south of ----
turned SW after passing east of ---- turned west upon reaching south of ---- .
followed by
Eight UFOs(Probably balloons) moved slowly from ----

These are all radar sightings- Some of the grouping of UFOs , sorry, (Probably balloons)tracked were listed as follows - 50,39,27,18,22,33,25. Many were detected at altitudes from 66,000 to 95,300 ft.
 
I've been completely through that entire site. It's all COMINT, Communications Intelligence. In other words, someone reported a UFO and the NSA caught the communications. because NSA has a message that says a UFO was probably a balloon does not infer armed agents are beating up on witnesses.

You are still claiming the NSA has 'agents' that are involved in stifling UFO incidents. Saying, 'Well, they don't tell everything' is, in my opinion, not good enough. (A spy agency not telling everything? Who would have thought?!) You have to come up with better proof than that. They would have to be working well outside their mandate for that to be true.

There remains something fishy about this story.
 
<STYLE> .Normal {margin:0.0pt; margin-top:0.0pt; margin-bottom:0.0pt; margin-left:0.0pt; margin-right:0.0pt; text-indent:0.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-size:10.0pt; color:Black; font-weight:normal; } H1 {margin:0.0pt; margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:3.0pt; margin-left:0.0pt; margin-right:0.0pt; text-indent:0.0pt; font-family:"Arial"; font-size:18.0pt; color:Black; font-weight:bold; } H2 {margin:0.0pt; margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:3.0pt; margin-left:0.0pt; margin-right:0.0pt; text-indent:0.0pt; font-family:"Arial"; font-size:16.0pt; color:Black; font-weight:bold; } H3 {margin:0.0pt; margin-top:12.0pt; margin-bottom:3.0pt; margin-left:0.0pt; margin-right:0.0pt; text-indent:0.0pt; font-family:"Arial"; font-size:14.0pt; color:Black; font-weight:bold; } </STYLE> [FONT=&quot]Larry Warren wrote Left at East Gate. He described his abduction by these 'agents' or 'operatives' for three days. Nearly all those involved with the alien craft that night were shot up with drugs and threatened and many were transferred to the US in weeks.He didn't know who they were associated with for years. He was continually threatened by this group. These 'agents' confiscated all of his military records. Warren suffered medical problems from possible nuclear radiation (Weapons Storage Area) and burns in his eyes caused by an 'alien' flying mobile unit. After much searching, his records were found at the NSA and to this day is visited by 'agents' who have 'words' with him. Warren lives in Great Britain. By extention, the US government, by its silence, had participated in the actions of this agency. And by its policy stating UFOs pose no serious defensive threat to the US has put a large segment of the population at risk for a psychological meltdown. NSA like the CIA have several arms that do dirty work for them. Image...image...[/FONT]

Yes, i am familiar with the account. I believe this just further illustrates and underscores the overall point that I was making in my list of what's wrong with UFOlogy today... that is, the field would do well to go back to the process it had in place decades ago and re-new the focus on physical evidence and scientific research, vice focusing on government cover-ups, mind control, dis-information, and disclosures -- most of which are dubious accounts and accusations at best and often contradicted by others involved in such cases. Three decades of the latter has accomplished nothing but increased animosity toward the whole subject and trivialized the entire field.
 
Rock

NSA doesn't advertise all their activities.

In the UFO forum, see thread - NSA Disclosures of UFO Data.
Open C Comint
lines represent words that are blackened out.

One UFO (Probably a balloon) moved slowly from south of ----
turned SW after passing east of ---- turned west upon reaching south of ---- .
followed by
Eight UFOs(Probably balloons) moved slowly from ----

These are all radar sightings- Some of the grouping of UFOs , sorry, (Probably balloons)tracked were listed as follows - 50,39,27,18,22,33,25. Many were detected at altitudes from 66,000 to 95,300 ft.

Pupilstutor, I do understand that intelligence agencies by their charter are secretive. I certainly did not mean to imply that they are open about all that they do -- and I am damn glad they are not. In general, I believe Schuyler summed up the various responsibilities among the agencies very nicely. Again, I don't mean to sound dismissive about concerns over what US intel agencies do or don't do -- and there certainly are plenty of places here where this seems to be the most important topic. But that is not really the purpose of my post. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I really believe Ufology would benefit from refraining from engaging in the "tinfoil-hat issues" and re-focus efforts on serious scientific research. I see absolutely nothing beneficial in discussing whether the NSA is secretly investigating UFO reports, unless, of course, the topic is conspiracies which this is not. That doesn't mean that there isn't some overlap in the issues (or that there absolutely must be a complete separation of the issues) and I believe your original post was a legitimate one in pointing out that there are accounts where people have made claims about clearances above top secret and being investigated and tormented by "NSA Agents". But as important as this issue is to some, to me, I see it as a distraction, one that has come at the cost of serious scientific investigations.
 
I put together a list of things that continue to bother me about the state of Ufology today. These are just my observations. Feel free to add to it or tear it apart. In short, I believe that the field has been hijacked by those seeking attention, and each is trying to outdo the other in outrageousness just to get that attention. The more outrageous the claim, the further we get away from scientific analysis of physical evidence. I applaud people like Gene and Dave that have exposed a lot of these frauds on their show. Still, there fails to be what is really needed, a fundamental re-boot of the field of Ufology. Otherwise it will remain the dominion of the foil-hat crowd.

I'll play Devils Advocate hear and state that the problem isn't necessarily "Ufology" itself, as I think you've sort of defined it, "The Field" as you put it. The problem is more how "Science" has chosen to ignore the phenomenon. Most "ologies" are well defined within the scope of science and as such, these "ologies" are fairly ordered and there is a particular criteria assigned in order to be considered an "ologist" i.e -Sociology/Sociologist, Biology/Biologist, Geology/Geologist...you get the idea. The fact that there is no scientifically accepted "ology" know as "Ufology" makes it therefore, unordered. It's messy. And there is no criteria in order to call oneself a "Ufologist". In my mind, the field as we know it today is rather small...and getting smaller. In order to become considered a ufologist. In my mind, one must be involved in field work. That means getting off your ass and getting outside, talking to witnesses, measuring physical trace evidence, and performing the types of research that would pass some sort of peer reviewed process, if there is such a thing in such an unordered, messy "ology". Oh yes, I forgot. All this must be done on your own dime and without guarantee of compensation. So with that said...

1 -- Physical evidence: In the 1940s and 1950s, the focus of Ufology (if it could be called that) was on sightings (interesting how it coincided with the world’s entry into flight technology). By the 1960s and 1970s, the focus became physical evidence – people seeing scorch marks, footprints, measurable levels of physical residue, increased radiation levels, etc. Then, by the 1980s, abductions started being widely discussed and reported. By the 1990s and through today, it’s back to sightings – Phoenix lights, O’Hare Incident – etc. With the current state of video editing technology, I really think there needs to be a greater focus on physical evidence. Photos and video are mostly useless today (not completely as trained imagery scientists can find fakes). But the field would be far better off if it focused on things that can be scientifically proven.>>

I'm not sure "the Field" does focus on videos and or pictures to any great extent. Unless the analysis is done by someone like Haines or Maccabbe. And I think the mantra of many that can truely consider "Ufologist" has always been the same. Science-Science-Science. I'm thinking guys like Dick Hall, Richard Haines, Maccabbee etc. But I know what you mean. However, just because someone creates a website and then collects photos from news clippings (the web) or embeds YouTube videos, does not make them "Ufologist" nor do these methods have anything to do with "Ufology". If you think they do, maybe that's your mistake and not a really a "problem".
2 -- Eye Witnesses: People that state that trained observers like pilots and policemen are no better witnesses than the average Joe are idiots. Still, since humans still know very little about the brain and how it works (can people have mass hallucinations like at Fatima?), I think more study needs to be conducted on the human brain to determine whether it can “create” (some would say “perceive”) an alternative reality, and whether this situation can be “networked” across multiple brains (abductees), or concurrent perceptions (mass sightings). Along with number 1 above, if much of what is being “seen” actually is what the brain may be perceiving instead, these might be instances that cannot be photographed anyway – like abductions.

Not really a problem per se...a good suggestion but not a problem. There will always be those who will deny the value of the reports of trained observers. Hell, there will always be those who deny everything (Klass, Shermer, McGaha etc). However, you will not find this a problem with "Ufologist". Ask Robert Hastings...

3 -- Why would they take 60 years to study soil”?: One common error on many in the field continues to be assigning human understanding and motivations to potential non-human actions. It can’t be done, so stop doing it.

The "Einstein" problem, really found more amongst Skeptics rather than Ufologist. Again, not really a problem. I think the true Ufologist, while valuing the application of science, tends to be the sort that keeps a more open mind than most. Think S. Friedmans infamous "Grey Basket" (no pun intended, unless intended by Friedman).

4 -- It’s ETH or nothing: People that are not willing to consider alternative explanations no longer are researchers, they are advocates. Advocates are not concerned with finding truths, but only in proving they are not wrong. Discard them.

The ETH, if one applies "science" is nothing more than the most logical hypothesis and the one most true Ufologist cling to do to the fact that as science marches forward, it is the one most likely to be proven or dis proven. You can't really have it both ways. The alternatives are what? Hyper dimensional entities. Demons or Angels. A product of Jungs Human Consciousness Collective? One can't blame true Ufologist in their desire to cling closely to science. And I don't see it as a problem. I susect that most when confronted with compelling evidence to the contrary, would certainly consider the alternatives.

5 -- Finger Pointers and Cry Babies: When people are unable to engage in thoughtful scientific consideration, can’t find the answers, or otherwise have given up the scientific approach, they often engage in finger pointing – “it’s the government’s fault,” “they know the answer, if only they would tell us”, “this is too hard of a problem for me to solve, let someone else give me an answer”, etc. This intellectual laziness is killing the field. Look, serious researchers need to assume that no one out there has the answer yet – including the government. Stop looking for scapegoats as to why you don’t have the answers you want and look for them using established scientific principles.

Most would consider government knowledge of the phenomena a part and parcel of the larger picture and the most likely place to get smoking gun, scientific type physical evidence, if such exist. Why do you think Hastings specializes in the Nuke/UFO relationship? Those interested in the Governments involvement don't necessarily, AFAIK, believe they know the answer or that they are hiding some kind of extensive big picture type knowledge. At least not the true Ufologist that I respect. But I know what you mean to some extent.

6 -- Intelligence “Insiders”: Listen, everyone exposed to classified information signed a “non-disclosure agreement” (NDF not/not and NDA) stating that they swear and affirm to never disclose the information they are being exposed to, to ANYONE. Period. If a person then discloses that information, they are not only committing a “felony” offense, but they are by definition a “liar” – they have lied to the people they have taken an oath to protect. If a person is willing to “lie” once, they probably will be willing to lie again. There is a caveat to this, and that is “whistleblowers”. But the “whistleblower” statutes are very narrow and much defined -- a person has to follow a specific procedure. Anyone just coming out and releasing what they call is “classified” is either committing a felony, or making it up (unless they fall under the whistleblower statutes which require certain procedures – talking to the press or to Ufologists does not qualify). I am just saying that people willing to violate an NDF where they swore to protect their nation’s secrets need to be looked at skeptically.

And most are - by true Ufologist. There will always be those who, through fault of ego or desperation, will succumb to such temptations. However, who will find this type of problem in most of the sciences and it is not those sole sin of Ufologist.

7 -- Above “Top Secret”. What a popular phrase. But seriously, there are no classifications levels “above” Top Secret. There are three levels, confidential, secret, and top secret. Period. There also is special compartmented information, called SCI. This information usually falls within Top Secret, but may also be Secret. The point is, that the information in SCI compartments falls within one of the existing three levels. ALL compartments do this. When people say that they have clearances “above top secret” they should be looked at skeptically.

Agreed. And again, not really an overarching problem in the field.

8 -- CIA/NSA “Agents”. The CIA and NSA don’t have “agents”. They have “analysts” or “operatives”. The FBI has “agents”. The DEA has “agents”, the TSA has “agents” (see a pattern?). Usually “law-enforcement” agencies have “agents”. Intel agencies have operatives, or analysts. As an aside, if someone were to ever be “accused” of being an “NSA Agent” they should not take this as an insult, but wear it as a badge of honor – because those people keep Americans safe every damn day.

Agents/Operatives/Analysts.. not really a true Ufological proble. But point taken.

9 -- Domestic intelligence Collection: Ever since “The Hughes-Ryan Act of 1974,” it has been illegal for US Intelligence Agencies to collect information on US citizens. This was a result of the Watergate era. This Act was amended in 1980 making it even stricter. Some of the provisions were clarified in the Patriot Act, so that terrorists overseas communicating inside the US could be collected upon. Any collection involving a US citizen requires a US court action. Almost all is conducted by the FBI and requires a court order. People that claim that they are being monitored by the CIA or NSA should be looked at skeptically if they claim it has taken place SINCE 1974.

Point taken. If it's a "problem", it's a minor one at best.

10 -- Cattle Mutilations: There is a whole genre of Ufology that almost always has some type of physical evidence. Why are these not being more closely studied? So far, Human mutilations have been confined to fiction writings. But on a previous Paracast Don Ecker mentioned something like this when he was a detective. Why isn’t there more research being done in this area.

Cattle mutes are simply a very small part of a very large Ufological picture. They haven't added or detracted much from that picture IMO.

Conclusion: I guess if I had to sum up everything that I have mentioned here, it would be the following: I believe there is too much attention being focused on peripheral issues (photos, videos, disclosure movements, secret agents, government conspiracies, the Queen of England is a reptile, etc) when there should be more attention paid to physical evidentiary issues – landings, residuals, mutilations, human brain function, etc. Ufology has been hijacked by the foil hat crowd.

Depends on your defintions. And then, by your defintion, only if you let it. I think it also depends to some extent on why you're interested in it in the first place. If your seeking 'disclosure' or some kind of worldwide accptance of the reality of the phenomenon, then I think you'll be waiting a very long time. The "foil hat" crowd will always exist. And that can't be helped. Nor do I see them as a "problem". Rather, they are simply a natural byproduct of human nature and the high strangeness inherent in the subject. And, IMO, a naturalness that I have a hard time equating as a true problem. A nuisance maybe, but not a problem. Nor are they representative of "Ufology" as properly defined.

But in order for this endeavor to truly take off, I believe Ufology needs a reboot, and needs to go back to the roots etablished by J. Allen Hynek and Vallee. Ufology needs to go back to the study of physical evidence.

I've always had the feeling that, by it's nature ( and possibly by the insistence of the perpetrators, whoever they may be), that UFOLOGY isn't meant to take off. At least not yet in the way most here would prefer. If and when they decide it's time, trust me when I tell you, it will.

I get the point of your post Sgt. The preceding has only been a flow of consciousness exercise directed at no one in particular. To sum up, I feel Ufology is rather healthy if you separate, on your own, signal to noise. And define it properly.
 
Jonah, thanks for the post. I appreciate your well thought out responses. Part of the reason I posted the original was to stimulate such a discussion. I have just a few comments:

I'll play Devils Advocate hear and state that the problem isn't necessarily "Ufology" itself, as I think you've sort of defined it, "The Field" as you put it. The problem is more how "Science" has chosen to ignore the phenomenon.

At least we agree on the symptom; however, I completely disagree on your diagnosis. Science has chosen to ignore the phenomenon because it has been hijacked by idiots. To barrow and expand upon an example David has used at least twice in past episodes -- the state of Ufology today is like this: A group of people have a pool party to intelligently discuss and examine topic A. This discussion is going quite well until 100s of others jump into the pool. Now, this later group isn't interested in discussing the topic intelligently, they just want the limelight and to be in the sun for a while. So, instead of engaging the conversation intelligently, they defecate in the pool. Now, all the scientists that are standing on the pool's deck, and were considering wading in to discuss the topic, are instead saying, "I'm not wading into THAT pool, no way, no how. I believe this succinctly exemplifies the state of affairs today in Ufology.

I'm not sure "the Field" does focus on videos and or pictures to any great extent. Unless the analysis is done by someone like Haines or Maccabbe. And I think the mantra of many that can truly consider "Ufologist" has always been the same. Science-Science-Science. I'm thinking guys like Dick Hall, Richard Haines, Maccabbee etc. But I know what you mean. However, just because someone creates a website and then collects photos from news clippings (the web) or embeds YouTube videos, does not make them "Ufologist" nor do these methods have anything to do with "Ufology". If you think they do, maybe that's your mistake and not a really a "problem".

You Tube, the name which shall not be named, the loads of videos posted on the paracast forums -- there is evidence all around that pictures, still and motion, have become the center point for many, many reports, and discussion. When was the last time you saw a post on the radiation levels of the trees in Stephensville Texas that were supposedly scorched by a UFO? Where are the pressure tests on the indentations left in the ground from craft that supposedly landed? Where are the casts of imprints, the soil samples, etc.? Some of this is being done, but even here, you end up with people trying to say they have a skull of a starchild, or that the implant that was removed was studied, but its results aren't released, or the lab is un-named. Etc. All I am saying, is that photos today are not completely, but almost completely useless. Just the sheer number of them would keep legit analysts like Maccabee and David busy for eternity.

Not really a problem per se...a good suggestion but not a problem. There will always be those who will deny the value of the reports of trained observers. Hell, there will always be those who deny everything (Klass, Shermer, McGaha etc). However, you will not find this a problem with "Ufologist". Ask Robert Hastings...

I believe it is a problem. Ufology has been hijacked by the tin-foil hat crowd and until it is re-taken by trained investigators (not just people
reporting on investigations by others) it will remain a defecated cesspool. People like Vallee, Don Ecker, etc. have left the field.

The ETH, if one applies "science" is nothing more than the most logical hypothesis and the one most true Ufologist cling to do to the fact that as science marches forward, it is the one most likely to be proven or dis proven. You can't really have it both ways. The alternatives are what? Hyper dimensional entities. Demons or Angels. A product of Jungs Human Consciousness Collective? One can't blame true Ufologist in their desire to cling closely to science. And I don't see it as a problem. I susect that most when confronted with compelling evidence to the contrary, would certainly consider the alternatives.

Why does it have to be either/or? Why can't there be multiple explanations? Are the ones on your list mutually exclusive? Are any? I postulate that the ETH is the predominant theory today because the serious scientific discussion virtually stopped in the 1970s (when it was pretty much the only horse in town)and has not progressed since (about the time Vallee left the field). while there has been "some" scientific progress (it hasn't been totally absent) it has been overshadowed by the "Queen of England is a Reptilian" crowd.

Most would consider government knowledge of the phenomena a part and parcel of the larger picture and the most likely place to get smoking gun, scientific type physical evidence, if such exist. Why do you think Hastings specializes in the Nuke/UFO relationship? Those interested in the Governments involvement don't necessarily, AFAIK, believe they know the answer or that they are hiding some kind of extensive big picture type knowledge. At least not the true Ufologist that I respect. But I know what you mean to some extent.

Again, I think you get the symptom correctly identified, but you blow the diagnosis. People have turned to the "government" issue because they are
intellectually lazy and it is the path of least Resistance. Why conduct your own analysis when you can claim that others have already done it and it's
just a matter of them giving it to you? Make no mistake, those waiting on government disclosure and answers to the UFO issue coming from government will be waiting for eternity. I believe that anything that comes out of the government on this issue will already be known -- like the British and the French disclosures. But in short, I don't believe the government knows anymore about what is going on than non-government people.

Cattle mutes are simply a very small part of a very large Ufological picture. They haven't added or detracted much from that picture IMO.

I am not sure if the issue is "simple" or that it represents a "very small" small, medium, or large part of the picture. To make such a claim would actually require an investigation of the facts. What I do believe is that there are hundreds of cases around the world per year, and each one has physical evidence that could be studied and categorized -- if for nothing else, then to put the issue to bed once and for all. This is how science works. You examine evidence and it either moves your theory forward, disproves it, it is demonstrated to not be associated with what you are studying.Again, I appreciate the discussion -- and people can always disagree on characterizations or definitions. I don't begin to believe that I have ANY answers regarding the true nature of this subject. But what I think I do know a little about is that the answers don't lie in government. I believe that Ufology has been hijacked by the tin-foil hat crowd. I don't believe much in the way of science is going on (surely, there are some very dedicated people still studying physical evidence as has been demonstrated on the Paracast in past episodes. But until the field is able to regain control of the topic and the issues, and the community is able to purge the defecators from the pool, I am not convinced there will be much progress at all. This is why I love the Paracast, and I am very thankful to Gene and David who have done such a great job in exposing the snake-oil salesmen in this field. Thank you Gene and David!!!
 
A group of people have a pool party to intelligently discuss and examine topic A. This discussion is going quite well until 100s of others jump into the pool. Now, this later group isn't interested in discussing the topic intelligently, they just want the limelight and to be in the sun for a while. So, instead of engaging the conversation intelligently, they defecate in the pool. Now, all the scientists that are standing on the pool's deck, and were considering wading in to discuss the topic, are instead saying, "I'm not wading into THAT pool, no way, no how. I believe this succinctly exemplifies the state of affairs today in Ufology.
Brings this scene to mind.
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Maybe someone should mount a Baby Ruth bar on a trophy base and award it to the biggest turd in the pool on an annual basis. Right now, in my mind, it's a tight race between Greer, Bassett, and Knell.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
 
Jonah, thanks for the post. I appreciate your well thought out responses. Part of the reason I posted the original was to stimulate such a discussion. I have just a few comments:

At least we agree on the symptom; however, I completely disagree on your diagnosis. Science has chosen to ignore the phenomenon because it has been hijacked by idiots. To barrow and expand upon an example David has used at least twice in past episodes -- the state of Ufology today is like this: A group of people have a pool party to intelligently discuss and examine topic A. This discussion is going quite well until 100s of others jump into the pool. Now, this later group isn't interested in discussing the topic intelligently, they just want the limelight and to be in the sun for a while. So, instead of engaging the conversation intelligently, they defecate in the pool. Now, all the scientists that are standing on the pool's deck, and were considering wading in to discuss the topic, are instead saying, "I'm not wading into THAT pool, no way, no how. I believe this succinctly exemplifies the state of affairs today in Ufology.

Here's my take on your analogy...

The first group gathered to intelligently discuss the phenomena are true "Ufologist", a term they use to call themselves under a mutually understood basis -and- are having a great time. Then 100s of others crash the party (they weren't even invited) and start shitting in the pool, all the while calling themselves Ufologist - nothing stops them from doing so because there really isn't a criteria universally accepted for calling themselves one, say a degree or something along those lines. Nor can the first group (which have now become scientist in your analogy) stop them from calling themselves such. Doesn't mean they are (the second group) just because they say they are, but nothing can stop them. Not only that, the government, who are aware of the reality of the phenomena the group A Ufologist are discussing (and don't want them to) populate the party crasher group intentionally with there own shitters -AND- they bring along loads of free liquor and disperse it liberally amongst the rest of the party crashers. Hey, at least somebody is having now having a good time at the party. And it ain't the group A Ufologist. How did we get here?

If there were a credential that Ufologist universally accepted amongst themselves (let's just call it a degree) it would have been analogous to having a doorman at the party. It would also have been the equivalent to an invitation to the party. The problem however, is that other "ologist" don't want to, or are afraid of, letting the Ufologist into the degree club. This issue far preceded the Shitters showing up at the party (Robertson Panel, Condon, Blue Book, NASA, etc etc). The Ivory tower has always been out of reach. This is not to say that individual members agreed with the blackballing of Ufologist from the Ivory Tower. Rather, many of the "Ufologist" -at- the party were members, one way or another, of other "ologist" groups - Hynek, Haines, MacDonald, Vallee, Mack, Sturrock, Bullard and many, many more. However, these were the exception and not the norm. And some paid a great price for being that exception.

Bottom line, this pool has shit in it. The only hope is to find another pool to party around. But until there are invitations printed and a doorman is in place, you'll always run the risk of the shitters showing up again. And the only way, IMO, to print said invitations and hire the doorman is for "Science" to recognize, as the government already does, the validity of the study of the phenomena, leave it's ego at the door, and do what true science is supposed to do. At that point, the Party is on!!!

You Tube, the name which shall not be named, the loads of videos posted on the paracast forums -- there is evidence all around that pictures, still and motion, have become the center point for many, many reports, and discussion. When was the last time you saw a post on the radiation levels of the trees in Stephensville Texas that were supposedly scorched by a UFO? Where are the pressure tests on the indentations left in the ground from craft that supposedly landed? Where are the casts of imprints, the soil samples, etc.? Some of this is being done, but even here, you end up with people trying to say they have a skull of a starchild, or that the implant that was removed was studied, but its results aren't released, or the lab is un-named. Etc. All I am saying, is that photos today are not completely, but almost completely useless. Just the sheer number of them would keep legit analysts like Maccabee and David busy for eternity.

In the digital age, this may simply be the cost of doing business. As you say, there are those doing the investigative work on the ground. They are known as Ufologist. And they are NOT the problem. And again, until you can get Science to recognize the validity of the phenomenon and maybe fund some of this investigative of work through Government grants..uh...um....nevermind. It's the only "ology" that works for free.

I believe it is a problem. Ufology has been hijacked by the tin-foil hat crowd and until it is re-taken by trained investigators (not just people reporting on investigations by others) it will remain a defecated cesspool. People like Vallee, Don Ecker, etc. have left the field.

This goes back to the definiton one uses when describing Ufology. I'm wondering if a simple identifier a true Ufologist could use (in lui of the . PHD moniker), on websites, books, articles they write. Something like "Member of the Working Group Union of International Ufologist" or something like this might be a temporary solution. Articles, research would be peer reviewed by this group before publication etc. Certainly a strict criteria for membership etc etc.

It may even have a subgroup devoted to exposing BS...headed by Robert Hastings. One could donate to the group, it could apply for grants etc etc. Dues would be paid. Gene and David could even head up the media division ;)...the "Paracast" could certainly be used to promote such an idea. Just throwing possible solutions out there that I'm sure have been discussed many times before.

Why does it have to be either/or? Why can't there be multiple explanations? Are the ones on your list mutually exclusive? Are any? I postulate that the ETH is the predominant theory today because the serious scientific discussion virtually stopped in the 1970s (when it was pretty much the only horse in town)and has not progressed since (about the time Vallee left the field). while there has been "some" scientific progress (it hasn't been totally absent) it has been overshadowed by the "Queen of England is a Reptilian" crowd.

There may well be multiple explanations and I wouldn't discount the possibility that many intelligent hard working Ufologist have considered the best evidence and come back to the ETH as the most valid possibility, barring new data or discoveries. I wouldn't fault them for that.

As for Reptilians and the Queen, that has nothing to do with Ufology and I don't think Icke would be invited to join the Working Group.

If it walks like a wolf, and smells like shit, it ain't a duck.

Again, I think you get the symptom correctly identified, but you blow the diagnosis. People have turned to the "government" issue because they are intellectually lazy and it is the path of least Resistance. Why conduct your own analysis when you can claim that others have already done it and it's just a matter of them giving it to you? Make no mistake, those waiting on government disclosure and answers to the UFO issue coming from government will be waiting for eternity. I believe that anything that comes out of the government on this issue will already be known -- like the British and the French disclosures. But in short, I don't believe the government knows anymore about what is going on than non-government people.

I think that if you observe the behavior of the Government and it's 60+ year history of BS, from Roswell to Rendlesham, Blue Book to Condon, AFOSI to the NSA/CIA, it's obvious the US government isn't being truthful with it's citizens. This is simply, as it should be, a red flag for some. And I appreciate the work of those (Dolan, Good, etc) who do see red and are tenacious when pursuing this avenue of investigation. One could also look at it this way. Implementation of Governmental disinformation programs are proportional to the tenacity of Ufologist pursing Governmental honesty. The harder they dig, the bigger the smokescreen.

I am not sure if the issue is "simple" or that it represents a "very small" small, medium, or large part of the picture. To make such a claim would actually require an investigation of the facts. What I do believe is that there are hundreds of cases around the world per year, and each one has physical evidence that could be studied and categorized -- if for nothing else, then to put the issue to bed once and for all. This is how science works. You examine evidence and it either moves your theory forward, disproves it, it is demonstrated to not be associated with what you are studying.Again, I appreciate the discussion -- and people can always disagree on characterizations or definitions. I don't begin to believe that I have ANY answers regarding the true nature of this subject. But what I think I do know a little about is that the answers don't lie in government. I believe that Ufology has been hijacked by the tin-foil hat crowd. I don't believe much in the way of science is going on (surely, there are some very dedicated people still studying physical evidence as has been demonstrated on the Paracast in past episodes. But until the field is able to regain control of the topic and the issues, and the community is able to purge the defecators from the pool, I am not convinced there will be much progress at all. This is why I love the Paracast, and I am very thankful to Gene and David who have done such a great job in exposing the snake-oil salesmen in this field. Thank you Gene and David!!!

Agreed...
 
SgtRock,
I think you have many excellent points but here is problem I have from my personal experiences. I have a classic scoop mark on my ankle that has been there since 1998. The doctors either blow it off or think it is weird. I could try to demand a biopsy but would the insurance company pay for it.

I had one doctor literally run from me when he was confused about what was going on with me and I brought something outside his comfort zone up as a possibility.

One of my current Dr's looks the other way when I mark certain things on a lab slip because she understands what is going on with me is beyond what she knows.

Who is going to educate this group? How are insurance companies going to deal with people like me? The medical/pharmaceutical group is corrupt and wants to keep it's barbaric worldview in most cases because it makes money.

What helps me is usually outside the conventional belief system and if I try to tell some of my Dr's about it they either ignore me or roll their eyes. I gave one Dr a large amount of scientific data on a natural product that helped bring up my blood protein levels without harming my kidney function .She has to ignore me because she probably could not legally tell someone about this without jeopardizing her position. Tin foil hat crowds may irritate you but conventional systems do not work well with people like me.
 
Ally:

Thanks for your post. I absolutely admit wholeheartedly that I have absolutely no answers for your situation. Abductions have bothered me since I first read about them. I am absolutely 100 percent baffled by the entire scenario. What I do believe is that people who report them ought to be taken seriously. And I wish there was a medical community that did take it seriously. But, what would be nice is that if there was some kind of group, perhaps the one like Jonah mentions above that can at least begin to database on a global basis all of the abductions going on, as well as the specifics, such as duration, physical evidence such as scoop marks, scars, implants, locations, etc. etc. I really think that we will never really get any answers in this area until we at least start with the evidence gathering stage. So, again, instead of spending time trying to get the government to release documents, or to validate forged documents like the MJ-12 stuff, or talking about monarchies run by reptilians, I think energies are better spent collecting and analyzing data. At the very least, it seems like a decent starting point to me. And, as an aside, people like Budd Hopkins have been gathering this data and it is a very good start. But we need a global effort. If we can tell how many people have malaria in Djibouti, why can't we determine if anyone has been abducted from there, or Ethiopia, or Singapore, or Greenland? In fact, on one of the other threads, a Russian citizen lamented that he never heard of people being abducted in Russia. Maybe that is because of the many decades of state-run media, but Russia has had a free press for almost 20 years. Where are the reports there? I bet there are people with similar experiences, but the data is not being collected.
 
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