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"The Roswell Dream Team Nightmare"

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If I recall correctly, the craft wasn't dead silent and although Quintanilla couldn't find evidence to support his theory, he still remained convinced even in his retirement that it was a project similar to the LEM that he had no access to. A closer look at the report indicates that that the craft lifted off with a loud roar accompanied by a bluish-orange flame out of the bottom center of the craft. It was so loud Zamora had to take cover fearing it might explode, and as you mention above, it was even heard in town. The roar then reduced to a whine, and the object swiftly moved off in what seemed to be silence. I say seemed to be silence because when the human ear is exposed to very loud sudden noises, temporary hearing loss is completely normal. Rocket and jet engines are very loud and Zamora's unprotected ears could not possibly have been immune to this effect.

So what really seemed to have happened is that the craft blasted off with enough thrust to get quickly airborne, throttled back to flight mode, reducing the exhaust plume to transparent and reducing the noise substantially so that it seemed to go out, and then it moved off into the distance toward White Sands before Zamora's hearing returned to normal. Within a few minutes most of Zamora's hearing would have returned and in all the excitement this temporary perceptual phenomenon was probably overlooked.


Here is what I believe to be wrong with your reasoning:

1) Sgt. Sam Chavez of the State Police was probably by Zamora's side within a minute or so of the object's departure from the landing site. In all accounts that I've ever read, they carried on a normal conversation (other than Zamora still being hyped on adrenaline from being scared out of his wits). Nobody ever mentioned them shouting at one another because Zamora suffered a severe hearing loss, even if temporary.

In addition, even before Chavez got there, probably within only 10-20 seconds after the object departed the landing site, Zamora was on his car radio calling for backup. He had no problem carrying on a conversation with the dispatcher, which shouldn't have been possible with the conjectured massive hearing loss you are describing (to the point where he literally lost almost all hearing and couldn't hear the roar of a jet engine). Temporary hearing loss from extremely loud noises causes tinnitus (ringing in the ears) that usually takes several days to subside.

2) If a conventional rocket/jet engine was used on a WINGLESS VTOL craft that subsequently took off cross-country still hugging the ground, it would require the engine to remain at near full throttle just to support the craft. Think of the Harrier jet, still under development then, which might be the closest thing in existence around then to duplicating what Zamora saw and described. It uses vectored thrust from its jet engine for VTOL capability and cannot hover and then horizontally depart without having its engine revved up in full. Zamora would NOT have heard an EXTREME decline in volume as he described, BEFORE the craft even left (i.e. still hovered above the landing site), even if he had a massive hearing loss. Had that happened, any conventional craft would have fallen back to the ground.

3) You are simply WRONG about the craft moving "into the distance TOWARD White Sands". White Sands is to the ESE of Socorro. The object departed and disappeared towards the mountains WEST of Socorro, more specifically to the WSW. This is at right angles to White Sands, and the object would have been moving AWAY from W.S., NOT towards it. That makes no sense if it was an experimental craft from W.S. It also makes no sense that any super-secret craft would have been off-range, period.

As for an identical craft being discovered in some military archive, even if no identical craft has been found in any declassified documents, it doesn't mean there wasn't one. There were craft that worked exactly on these principles being designed and tested, and Socorro was in close proximity to White Sands ( a missile testing area ).

If you are talking about the lunar lander, hadn't been built yet, much less being tested at White Sands. It was a fragile craft designed only to operate in low lunar gravity. It could not work in Earth's gravity.

The Surveyor Moon lander has been proposed by some, because one was being tested that morning at White Sands, suspended from a helicopter and dropped to the ground (simple drop test). But it wasn't manned, wasn't fueled for testing, couldn't take off on its own, had only 3 landing gears and round landing pads, not 4 rectangular ones in a diamond-shaped pattern (impressions found at site). It also looked something like a tripod or hat-rack, not the Hummer-sized egg-shaped craft that Zamora described.

Just as serious as the lack of any project remotely matching Zamora's close encounter is the fact that whatever-it-was did NOT have anything resembling a conventional propulsion system. Conventional jets or rockets, besides being noisy as hell at ALL times, would have excavated a large crater in the sandy arroyo floor as the object took off. Never happened! Hynek commented on this at the time, saying it had him perplexed. Zamora commented multiple times the craft created no smoke nor left any sort of trail, only kicked up a little dust initially, but even there he said it might have been the strong wind that created the dust.

In addition, Zamora was probably only around 50 feet away at the time the object "blasted off". A conventional jet or rocket engine would have sand-blasted him, even burned him at that close range. Never happened.

The object rose and departed to only about 20 feet off the desert floor and flew horizontally hugging the ground for 2 miles until reaching the mountains. Again, this was a wingless craft, and to travel this close to the ground would have required a strong component of downward vector thrust, again like a Harrier jet. It should have been kicking up dust beneath it the entire way, plus leaving behind a prominent trail. Never happened.

The Air Force took soil samples of the burned areas and tested for chemical propellents. The tests were negative, therefore could NOT have been conventional organic propellents like jet fuel, kerosene, gasoline, etc. About the only possible rocket propulsion system that could pass such a test would have been liquid hydrogen, very tricky to work with, still being perfected at the time. It was eventually used on the UPPER stages of the Saturn V (not as effective in the lower atmosphere), but not on the lunar lander. Also the later Space Shuttle used liquid hydrogen, but on takeoff and in the lower atmosphere depended largely on the two solid-fuel booster rockets. It would still leave some sort of water vapor trail and crater the arroyo floor.

The craft also departed to the southeast, which is the direction of White Sands.

No, again you are simply wrong. It DIDN'T depart to the SE. It departed to the WSW , the direction of the perlite mine at the base of the mountains only 2 miles away (big white scar on side of mountains, impossible to miss). As I mentioned in my first post, Zamora also described it departing UP the arroyo (WSW), over the dynamite shack nearby (WSW), shooting up the mountains and finally fading out in the sky in the vicinity of 6-mile Canyon (WSW) above the mountains. It would be just about impossible for Zamora to be totally confused about this. The only close mountains were to his west.

If this was a secret craft from White Sands, what the heck was it doing over 20 miles from the most extreme part of the Range, and why did it take off in a direction taking it AWAY from W.S. instead of back towards it? Where were the chase planes that would have been following a secret project like this?

Also in Zamora's interview, probably the next day on Socorro radio, the interviewer (Walter Shrode of KSRC) told Zamora that a TV news station in Albuquerque at 5:30 pm, only 20 minutes before Zamora's encounter, got a call from a viewer reporting the same or similar craft headed south, or in the direction of Socorro. This is more speculative, but Shrode thought the objects were the same and this independent sighting corroborated Zamora's. This other reported object was about 75 miles north of Socorro or 100 miles from the closest part of White Sands to the south.

So If this were a lone prototype for a project that was abandoned, it may have well been destroyed along with all plans, molds, and information about it. This was done with the Northrop flying wing. The only reason we know about it is because it had already been in production and flown, so there was so much information about it spread around that some records and films survived anyway.

Probably DOES mean there never was one. It would be quite unique in aviation history if not a shred of evidence survives of its existence. Even very top-top-secret aircraft like Stealth, U-2, SR-71 Blackbird, A-12, etc. (even when abandoned, like the A-12 was) are usually publicly known within a decade or two. We are now approaching 50 years, and not a trace of anything like this, small oval-shaped VTOL aircraft at Socorro.

The flying wing was never top secret, or if it was, it was for only the briefest of times. Photos of it were published in newspapers in the late 1940s. It was even brought up in early July 1947 in the newspapers (with photos) as a possible solution to the flying saucer mystery that started with the Kenneth Arnold sighting back on June 24. The Army Air Force said no, not possible. All prototypes were grounded at the time.

So the bottom line in this case is that we have what is described as an exotic rocket or jet engine powered object observed in the vicinity of an exotic rocket testing range.

No, could NOT have been any sort of rocket or jet engine, exotic or otherwise, for reasons given above (no cratering, trail, silent departure). Instead, the propulsion system has all the indications of a field propulsion system instead of our primitive conventional mass impulse propulsion systems. Don't know what you mean about W.S. missile range being "exotic." 1964, there was nothing "exotic" about what was going on there. Conventional rockets and jets had been around for some time. In fact, very little new rocketry was being tested at W.S., most having moved instead to Cape Kennedy and Vandenberg AFB. White Sands was simply too small for more modern rockets, which were launched out over the ocean for safety reasons.

No incredible high speed, high angle maneuvers were observed.

According to Zamora, in statements to Hynek and Ray Stanford, he thought the object took only about 10 seconds from when it departed silently to reach the perlite mill at the base of the mountains 2 miles away. If that estimate was correct, the object traveled an AVERAGE of 720 miles per hour. Stanford doubled the estimate of time in his book. Even if you tripled it, that would still be 240 mph average, with an even higher peak speed (since object accelerated from a standstill). E.g., if it had constant acceleration, then its speed when it reached the mountains would have been 480 mph. I consider even that pretty "incredible" considering the object was wingless, silent, and left no behind no smoke, trail, or dust path, thus could NOT have had a conventional propulsion system.

When it reached the base of the mountains, Zamora said it went into a steep climb. It was accelerating so fast and rose so quickly at that point, that Zamora said he was having trouble following it by eye. As he said in the radio interview the next day, "...it flew low to the perlite mine, and then from there on it did go faster than you could barely view." As it quickly rose and moved away, it faded out in the sky, in the vicinity of 6 mile Canyon in Zamora's estimation. Last part (rising, fading out), probably less than 10 seconds, according to interview with Stanford on site, to go roughly 4 more miles. Average speed during that interval, roughly 1400 mph average. You could triple the time interval again and divide the average speed by 3, and you still get nearly 500 mph average. This is at least jet aircraft speed, yet no trail, no cratering, no noise. (I don't buy your argument at all that Zamora lost all his hearing. In the same interview, Zamora said that when it went silent, you could hear a pin drop.)

Given these factors we simply cannot safely assume that what Zamora observed was some kind of alien craft. That doesn't mean it wasn't. It just means that as a responsible ufologist, I cannot promote that theory when the evidence suggests otherwise ( as much as I would like to ) ;) .

I see no evidence at all that this could have been any sort of conventional aircraft. The only other possibility I can possibly see here is a highly UNCONVENTIONAL human aircraft utilizing field propulsion and which for some reason still remains highly secret. You would think the military would have quickly adopted such advanced VTOL, high-speed, silent technology to replace its conventional jet and propeller aircraft. Yet it has never happened. That alone speaks volumes against it being one of ours. If this were a prototype of back-engineered alien propulsion technology, then I can see how it might possibly still be kept secret, but I consider that a long-shot as well.

Fact is, the AF's Blue Book debunkers were under a lot of pressure, including from the White House and Congress, to come up with an explanation for the well-publicized Socorro case. The head of B.B., Quintanilla, put out feelers all over the place for ANY project that might explain what Zamora saw. He never found anything. The case was a complete turning point for Hynek, who even wrote that if they could explain it, it would be do more to debunk UFO reports than any other case. But he never could explain it in any conventional way, in fact turned into a "believer" because the case was so "nuts-and-bolts" chock full of physical evidence, with no remotely plausible hoax or other conventional explanation in sight.

One of the unique things about Socorro was that the key witness, Zamora, never left the site. His first backup, Chavez, was already overlooking the area about 800-1000 feet away, there at his side probably within a minute after the object took off. Half the Socorro police force was there within 10 minutes. There was no place for hoaxers to hide, no where to escape unnoticed, no time to clean up after themselves, no way to invisibly remove necessary hoaxing paraphernalia, no way to erase footprints, no way to burn the soil and hard-to-ignite greasewood bushes in only seconds right in front of Zamora, etc. And how do you hoax a craft traveling at high speed close to the ground for 2 miles, bucking a strong wind, and then shoot at high speed up the mountainside? Does any thinking person really think a "hot air balloon" can fly against the wind at high speed while hugging the ground? That's the extremely silly magical thinking that people like Frank Stalter are still trying to sell others on.
 
Here is what I believe to be wrong with your reasoning:

1) Sgt. Sam Chavez of the State Police was probably by Zamora's side within a minute or so of the object's departure from the landing site. In all accounts that I've ever read, they carried on a normal conversation (other than Zamora still being hyped on adrenaline from being scared out of his wits). Nobody ever mentioned them shouting at one another because Zamora suffered a severe hearing loss, even if temporary.
The type of hearing loss I'm talking about lasts only a short period of time ( less than a couple of minutes ) because the tiny muscles in the middle ear can't maintain their state for long, after which time hearing returns quickly, and any other damage would probably have gone unreported as it would seem minor and unless the damage was severe would fade away after a few days. The craft throttled back and departed quickly, and noise diminishes rapidly as the distance from the source increases. Nearly all reports indicate that the sound volume was very loud and reduced to a whine ( not immediate silence ) and then apparent silence. At this point Zamora would not be totally deaf at all, just desensitized enough to the high volume that as the object moved off the whine became inaudible, his hearing started to return, and things rapidly returned to normal.
In addition, even before Chavez got there, probably within only 10-20 seconds after the object departed the landing site, Zamora was on his car radio calling for backup. He had no problem carrying on a conversation with the dispatcher, which shouldn't have been possible with the conjectured massive hearing loss you are describing (to the point where he literally lost almost all hearing and couldn't hear the roar of a jet engine). Temporary hearing loss from extremely loud noises causes tinnitus (ringing in the ears) that usually takes several days to subside.
The above fits within possible time frames for this effect to occur and dissipate as described.
2) If a conventional rocket/jet engine was used on a WINGLESS VTOL craft that subsequently took off cross-country still hugging the ground, it would require the engine to remain at near full throttle just to support the craft.
Not exactly. More thrust is needed to lift off than to maintain altitude.
Think of the Harrier jet, still under development then, which might be the closest thing in existence around then to duplicating what Zamora saw and described. It uses vectored thrust from its jet engine for VTOL capability and cannot hover and then horizontally depart without having its engine revved up in full. Zamora would NOT have heard an EXTREME decline in volume as he described, BEFORE the craft even left (i.e. still hovered above the landing site), even if he had a massive hearing loss. Had that happened, any conventional craft would have fallen back to the ground.
Prototype in Operation


Similar technology obviously existed.
3) You are simply WRONG about the craft moving "into the distance TOWARD White Sands". White Sands is to the ESE of Socorro. The object departed and disappeared towards the mountains WEST of Socorro, more specifically to the WSW. This is at right angles to White Sands, and the object would have been moving AWAY from W.S., NOT towards it. That makes no sense if it was an experimental craft from W.S. It also makes no sense that any super-secret craft would have been off-range, period.
I appear to stand corrected on this and should have checked more sources. Thank you for pointing out this error. My source for the direction came from: UFO Casebook: "Next, he saw the object lift off the ground, and head southeast" This is the only reference that says it went southeast that I've found, and there is plenty of evidence to conclude that it is wrong.
If you are talking about the lunar lander, hadn't been built yet, much less being tested at White Sands. It was a fragile craft designed only to operate in low lunar gravity. It could not work in Earth's gravity.
The video posted above says "Circa 1964-1965", and it appears to be working under its own power here on Earth with a pilot at the controls.
The Surveyor Moon lander has been proposed by some, because one was being tested that morning at White Sands, suspended from a helicopter and dropped to the ground (simple drop test). But it wasn't manned, wasn't fueled for testing, couldn't take off on its own, had only 3 landing gears and round landing pads, not 4 rectangular ones in a diamond-shaped pattern (impressions found at site). It also looked something like a tripod or hat-rack, not the Hummer-sized egg-shaped craft that Zamora described.
Exactly what it was isn't really relevant. We had the technology that matched critical aspects of the sighting.
Just as serious as the lack of any project remotely matching Zamora's close encounter is the fact that whatever-it-was did NOT have anything resembling a conventional propulsion system. Conventional jets or rockets, besides being noisy as hell at ALL times, would have excavated a large crater in the sandy arroyo floor as the object took off. Never happened! Hynek commented on this at the time, saying it had him perplexed. Zamora commented multiple times the craft created no smoke nor left any sort of trail, only kicked up a little dust initially, but even there he said it might have been the strong wind that created the dust.
I'm not convinced that is a valid assumption. The craft in the video posted is on cement, but the exhaust is transparent except for heat distortion and doesn't appear to have damaged the runway.
In addition, Zamora was probably only around 50 feet away at the time the object "blasted off". A conventional jet or rocket engine would have sand-blasted him, even burned him at that close range. Never happened.
Further review indicates Zamora may have been closer than several hundred feet, but no closer than around 100 feet ( but how do we really knows for sure ).

The object rose and departed to only about 20 feet off the desert floor and flew horizontally hugging the ground for 2 miles until reaching the mountains. Again, this was a wingless craft, and to travel this close to the ground would have required a strong component of downward vector thrust, again like a Harrier jet. It should have been kicking up dust beneath it the entire way, plus leaving behind a prominent trail. Never happened.
There does seem to be a conspicuous lack of turbulence, I'll grant that. But then again, visual estimates in the heat of the moment can be inaccurate, some dust was noticed, and the ground may have been sufficiently hard not to kick up a lot.
The Air Force took soil samples of the burned areas and tested for chemical propellents. The tests were negative, therefore could NOT have been conventional organic propellents like jet fuel, kerosene, gasoline, etc. About the only possible rocket propulsion system that could pass such a test would have been liquid hydrogen, very tricky to work with, still being perfected at the time. It was eventually used on the UPPER stages of the Saturn V (not as effective in the lower atmosphere), but not on the lunar lander. Also the later Space Shuttle used liquid hydrogen, but on takeoff and in the lower atmosphere depended largely on the two solid-fuel booster rockets. It would still leave some sort of water vapor trail and crater the arroyo floor.
I don't know what the propulsion unit is in the craft in the video, but it's not leaving any vapor trail. Besides that, the issue doesn't seem to be whether or not it was a rocket or jet type engine. The loud roar, flame, and burnt objects at the scene are enough to conclude that we're not dealing with advanced antigravity propulsion here.
If this was a secret craft from White Sands, what the heck was it doing over 20 miles from the most extreme part of the Range, and why did it take off in a direction taking it AWAY from W.S. instead of back towards it? Where were the chase planes that would have been following a secret project like this?
I don't know. Those are valid questions. But they aren't enough to support the idea that the object was an alien craft. White Sands was still close by and I've heard stories of tests flights going beyond normal boundaries. Ask Chris. Or maybe it wasn't a test. Maybe it was en route to another base and had to land for some reason.
Also in Zamora's interview, probably the next day on Socorro radio, the interviewer (Walter Shrode of KSRC) told Zamora that a TV news station in Albuquerque at 5:30 pm, only 20 minutes before Zamora's encounter, got a call from a viewer reporting the same or similar craft headed south, or in the direction of Socorro. This is more speculative, but Shrode thought the objects were the same and this independent sighting corroborated Zamora's. This other reported object was about 75 miles north of Socorro or 100 miles from the closest part of White Sands to the south.
Interesting detail.
Probably DOES mean there never was one. It would be quite unique in aviation history if not a shred of evidence survives of its existence.
How would we know any different if it were all destroyed? Or for that matter how do we know it wasn't related to that video I posted? Maybe there were other similar projects underway.
Even very top-top-secret aircraft like Stealth, U-2, SR-71 Blackbird, A-12, etc. (even when abandoned, like the A-12 was) are usually publicly known within a decade or two. We are now approaching 50 years, and not a trace of anything like this, small oval-shaped VTOL aircraft at Socorro.
Those examples went into production and we'ren't simply single prototypes. Also, the egg shape isn't really relevant as that would be an outer skin. The only relevant factor is that the technology was within our grasp if not under development at the time. So concluding that the Socorro NM incident was an alien craft is still not supported.
The flying wing was never top secret, or if it was, it was for only the briefest of times. Photos of it were published in newspapers in the late 1940s. It was even brought up in early July 1947 in the newspapers (with photos) as a possible solution to the flying saucer mystery that started with the Kenneth Arnold sighting back on June 24. The Army Air Force said no, not possible. All prototypes were grounded at the time.
The flying wing is another issue. Like I said. It went into production and was flown, so sure we know about it. That's the point. If only one had been made in secrecy and flown a few times and scrapped along with all the plans and molds, that would be a whole other matter.
No, could NOT have been any sort of rocket or jet engine, exotic or otherwise, for reasons given above (no cratering, trail, silent departure). Instead, the propulsion system has all the indications of a field propulsion system instead of our primitive conventional mass impulse propulsion systems. Don't know what you mean about W.S. missile range being "exotic." 1964, there was nothing "exotic" about what was going on there. Conventional rockets and jets had been around for some time. In fact, very little new rocketry was being tested at W.S., most having moved instead to Cape Kennedy and Vandenberg AFB. White Sands was simply too small for more modern rockets, which were launched out over the ocean for safety reasons.
The video I posted shows differently regarding the exhaust, and last time I checked, White Sands was still in use. According to Wikipedia, on March 2nd 2009, the LAS Pathfinder was transferred from the Langley Research Center to the White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico, for launch tests.
According to Zamora, in statements to Hynek and Ray Stanford, he thought the object took only about 10 seconds from when it departed silently to reach the perlite mill at the base of the mountains 2 miles away. If that estimate was correct, the object traveled an AVERAGE of 720 miles per hour. Stanford doubled the estimate of time in his book. Even if you tripled it, that would still be 240 mph average, with an even higher peak speed (since object accelerated from a standstill). E.g., if it had constant acceleration, then its speed when it reached the mountains would have been 480 mph. I consider even that pretty "incredible" considering the object was wingless, silent, and left no behind no smoke, trail, or dust path, thus could NOT have had a conventional propulsion system.
I don't maintain that the craft had "conventional" propulsion. I do however claim that some sort of exotic rocket/jet propulsion fits the description ( roar, blue/orange flame that turned transparent ).
When it reached the base of the mountains, Zamora said it went into a steep climb. It was accelerating so fast and rose so quickly at that point, that Zamora said he was having trouble following it by eye. As he said in the radio interview the next day, "...it flew low to the perlite mine, and then from there on it did go faster than you could barely view." As it quickly rose and moved away, it faded out in the sky, in the vicinity of 6 mile Canyon in Zamora's estimation. Last part (rising, fading out), probably less than 10 seconds, according to interview with Stanford on site, to go roughly 4 more miles. Average speed during that interval, roughly 1400 mph average. You could triple the time interval again and divide the average speed by 3, and you still get nearly 500 mph average. This is at least jet aircraft speed, yet no trail, no cratering, no noise. (I don't buy your argument at all that Zamora lost all his hearing. In the same interview, Zamora said that when it went silent, you could hear a pin drop.)
You can choose to ignore the physiology of how the ear protects itself against very loud noise and presume Zamora was somehow immune to it, but that sort of denial isn't really good counterpoint. Zamora's comment doesn't mean anything other than to him everything seemed silent, which may have been normal under the circumstances. You do seem to make a valid point about the craft's speed. However speed estimates are based on knowing precise times and distances covered, and Zamora may have been off by more than he thought. Still a legitimate curiosity though. I'll admit that.
I see no evidence at all that this could have been any sort of conventional aircraft. The only other possibility I can possibly see here is a highly UNCONVENTIONAL human aircraft utilizing field propulsion and which for some reason still remains highly secret. You would think the military would have quickly adopted such advanced VTOL, high-speed, silent technology to replace its conventional jet and propeller aircraft. Yet it has never happened. That alone speaks volumes against it being one of ours. If this were a prototype of back-engineered alien propulsion technology, then I can see how it might possibly still be kept secret, but I consider that a long-shot as well.
I don't maintain that the craft was conventional.
Fact is, the AF's Blue Book debunkers were under a lot of pressure, including from the White House and Congress, to come up with an explanation for the well-publicized Socorro case. The head of B.B., Quintanilla, put out feelers all over the place for ANY project that might explain what Zamora saw. He never found anything. The case was a complete turning point for Hynek, who even wrote that if they could explain it, it would be do more to debunk UFO reports than any other case. But he never could explain it in any conventional way, in fact turned into a "believer" because the case was so "nuts-and-bolts" chock full of physical evidence, with no remotely plausible hoax or other conventional explanation in sight.
Those all seem like accurate historical facts.
One of the unique things about Socorro was that the key witness, Zamora, never left the site. His first backup, Chavez, was already overlooking the area about 800-1000 feet away, there at his side probably within a minute after the object took off. Half the Socorro police force was there within 10 minutes. There was no place for hoaxers to hide, no where to escape unnoticed, no time to clean up after themselves, no way to invisibly remove necessary hoaxing paraphernalia, no way to erase footprints, no way to burn the soil and hard-to-ignite greasewood bushes in only seconds right in front of Zamora, etc. And how do you hoax a craft traveling at high speed close to the ground for 2 miles, bucking a strong wind, and then shoot at high speed up the mountainside? Does any thinking person really think a "hot air balloon" can fly against the wind at high speed while hugging the ground? That's the extremely silly magical thinking that people like Frank Stalter are still trying to sell others on.
I have a really hard time buying the hoax theory. The only way for that to work is if Zamora was lying and was in on it. Stranger things have happened but I'm not prepared to go all Phil Klass here on it. I think it's reasonable to believe that an exotic rocket/jet powered terrestrial craft was spotted. I don't rule out the possibility of an alien craft either. I just find it unlikely that rocket/jet propulsion would constitute any part of their operation, and all reports about the Socorro craft point to a centrally located thrust based engine, and craft using those principles were being designed and tested, as the video I posted clearly shows. The apparent silent operation is also explainable as a normal physiological protection mechanism for human hearing after exposure to such sudden loud noise. Almost normal hearing returns rapidly and the residual effects probably weren't mentioning in any of the follow-up reports.

To sum up, I think your strongest point in defending your position is the apparent horizontal speed of the craft. Many attempts were made to create a working saucer like craft. All the ones we know of failed miserably. Maybe this one actually worked, but for reasons unknown wasn't put into mass production.

This has been a good fair exchange. I'm not often shown to be wrong on even small points, so this was refreshing. Thank you :) !
 
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ufology said:
I have a really hard time buying the hoax theory. The only way for that to work is if Zamora was lying and was in on it.

What do you base that on? Even David bases his opinions on something and he lays that out, part fact, part his own wishful thinking/wild imaginings, but at least he writes that out. You're just conjecturing and back up your claim with nothing.
 
Here we go again!

Hynek, who actually investigated on-site, spoke to Zamora, etc., NEVER believed it to be a hoax. In fact, Socorro was a tipping point for Hynek since it was such a nuts-and-bolts UFO case full of physical evidence that couldn't be hoaxed. I roasted Stalter good on his blog for grossly misquoting Hynek, just as he is doing here with Zamora, claiming Zamora was “self-admittedly” “hazy” on the details because he was scared or that Zamora thought he had seen a balloon.


If it was an experimental craft, indeed nobody can remotely find any evidence that it existed. What experimental craft could depart the area like that in DEAD SILENCE (another key part of Zamora’s testimony)? Even AF debunker Quintanilla ruled that out after extensively checking for such a craft and drawing blanks. Something clearly physical happened (burns, landing impressions, radiation, fused soil, loud noise heard by many residents in town). In my book, that leaves probable “ET” by the process of elimination.



Why not do a real bet and bet a $1000, showing us EXACTLY how ALL aspects (and I do mean ALL) of this "student hoax" were carried out and leaving no physical evidence behind of your presence seconds after you carry out the hoax, leaving no time to clean up after yourself? That was the actual situation with Socorro. On-site investigators then got that, even the debunking ones. Hoax not possible. Modern arm-chair debunkers still don’t get it.

You make an extremely compelling case David. I never bought into the whole test/prototypical lander vehicle nonsense that I first learned of at TUFOIs blog. I just wanted to thank you for all of your hard work in the deconstruction and reconstruction of this UFO event. You put the time in and deserve some thanks for lending IMO extremely credible perspective to this SOLID UFO CASE. You have convinced me beyond question that the Zamora Case can once again be placed firmly back into the section titled, "most incredible, credibly reported, UFO Cases". Thank you.
 
What do you base that on? Even David bases his opinions on something and he lays that out, part fact, part his own wishful thinking/wild imaginings, but at least he writes that out. You're just conjecturing and back up your claim with nothing.
Since you disagree, then by all means explain:
  1. How it's reasonable to believe Zamora was so inept that he was fooled into mistaking a fake rocket and/or jet powered flying craft capable of carrying living crew from the real thing.
  2. Or: How college students came up with the resources to actually build such a craft when such craft were still in the prototype stages for the military and far beyond the means of college students to build.
If you can provide reasonable answers for the above, then I'm willing to reconsider my position.
 
Since you disagree, then by all means explain:
  1. How it's reasonable to believe Zamora was so inept that he was fooled into mistaking a fake rocket and/or jet powered flying craft capable of carrying living crew from the real thing.
  2. Or: How college students came up with the resources to actually build such a craft when such craft were still in the prototype stages for the military and far beyond the means of college students to build.
If you can provide reasonable answers for the above, then I'm willing to reconsider my position.

Zamora never said he saw an exit hatch on the craft or anyone getting into or out of the vehicle. He wasn't fooled into anything, he did his job the right way. He said he saw what he did see . . . . . "it looks like a balloon." I think he was an excellent witness. Can you provide evidence of any aircraft that looks like a balloon that a crew can actually get into? Have you read Zamora's original report yet?

The pranksters resources consisted of a balloon, some sort of flame producing device to burn the area "sporadically," as described by Hynek, and fill the balloon with hot air and some pyrotechnics and noisemakers. That's it! They didn't need any more than that . . . . per Zamora's account. As Colgate wrote to Tony, a hoax is a "no-brainer." Thanks for proving his point.
 
Zamora never said he saw an exit hatch on the craft or anyone getting into or out of the vehicle. He wasn't fooled into anything, he did his job the right way. He said he saw what he did see . . . . . "it looks like a balloon." I think he was an excellent witness. Can you provide evidence of any aircraft that looks like a balloon that a crew can actually get into? Have you read Zamora's original report yet?

The pranksters resources consisted of a balloon, some sort of flame producing device to burn the area "sporadically," as described by Hynek, and fill the balloon with hot air and some pyrotechnics and noisemakers. That's it! They didn't need any more than that . . . . per Zamora's account. As Colgate wrote to Tony, a hoax is a "no-brainer." Thanks for proving his point.

Actually, I've never seen copies of Zamora's original report(s). I've just seen various reports by authors and investigators. I've seen the balloon comment before. But because of the reactions of the investigators assumed that it was a simple descriptor regarding the craft's shape e.g. "It looks like a balloon" not "It is a balloon". But perhaps I shouldn't be assuming that the investigators clarified that point in their questioning of Zamora. So I'm willing to consider your point further. Do you know of any links to copies of Zamora's actual report and transcripts of the follow-up investigations? If not, it may take me a while to get back to you on this. In the meantime I don't think anyone's point has been "proven" just yet.
 
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It's in Quintanilla's book along with some other thoughts regarding the case. It seems David's claim that the White House put pressure on to solve the case is not accurate, Quintanilla called them for help.
ufos an air force dilemma - hector quintanilla - Download - 4shared - Andre Tohalex
Another copy can be found here along with Hynek's letter to Menzel where he discusses the terrain near the event and the sporadic burning in the area.
Saturday Night Uforia: Death of a Legend

To continue from my previous post here.

Now after having read several dozen pages on the Socorro Landing Incident from the NICAP site, including a transcript ( not original copy ) of Zamora's police report, the follow-up investigations, and press releases, only one document says that Zamora saw the craft's occupants get into the craft. The rest indicate that Zamora presumed the small human looking beings to be the craft's occupant's, but that he did not see the occupants enter the object.

There was also a comment that Zamora didn't notice any doors or windows on the craft. Zamora's report also indicates that when he was asked what the craft was, that he said the craft looked like a balloon. However the report also said his first impression was that the craft was an upside down car made of something shiny like white aluminum, and shaped like an "O". That and the further interviews with Zamora clearly suggest that Zamora did not believe the craft was a balloon, but that he had used that term as a descriptor ( as opposed to an identifier ).

Additionally, there are several pages in one collection of documents that describe efforts at the time to ascertain if the sighting was hoax, and given the contents of that report, it does not seem reasonable to assume the report is a hoax. Of particular note is that if the craft was actually a balloon, the wind was blowing in a direction away from the craft's direction of travel. Also of relevance were the notes that indicate the site was examined for tracks exiting the area, suitable escape routes, and places for hoaxers to hide during the immediate investigation of the scene.

The need for the complicity of Zamora and other investigators in order for a hoax to have been successful was also mentioned, and ultimately there was no evidence to support such complicity. At least one local teenager was interviewed and from that interview it was revealed that although Zamora was generally disliked, the teenager had no knowledge of such a hoax, and it was his opinion that if the local teens had wanted to harass Zamora somehow, a hoax of this type would not have been the method of choice.

Reviewing the case yet again, the evidence strongly suggests that an actual craft was observed and that it was beyond the capability of college students to build as part of a hoax. The possibility of exotic technology was also looked into by those who investigated the report and the conclusion of one such report was that although no specific project could be identified, the technology was similar to projects under development, within our technological capability, and that the craft was not an alien spacecraft or threat to national security. This assessment is the one that makes the most sense to me, though there are still some curious aspects about the craft that I've never seen reconciled, particularly its ability to accelerate fairly quickly to a significant speed, estimated by some to have been several hundred miles per hour.

Sources:
 
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After looking into the details of Zamora's description- It is also my opinion that whatever it was he witnessed, it was beyond that of which could have been constructed as a stunt by any group of college engineer. The resources/materials involved would have been huge in the way of expense. The technology, while similiar to current projects, still seems a bit more advanced for that time period.
 
' 'We know', you don't you dumb plebeians.Know something is out there, what it is, well.. ..|..' '....ok. :) Keep telling that to your children on your death beds, I doubt a lot of people honestly give a flug ( ;) ) anymore. Hilarious, in some sad sense.
 
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Actually, I've never seen copies of Zamora's original report(s). I've just seen various reports by authors and investigators. I've seen the balloon comment before. But because of the reactions of the investigators assumed that it was a simple descriptor regarding the craft's shape e.g. "It looks like a balloon" not "It is a balloon". But perhaps I shouldn't be assuming that the investigators clarified that point in their questioning of Zamora. So I'm willing to consider your point further. Do you know of any links to copies of Zamora's actual report and transcripts of the follow-up investigations? If not, it may take me a while to get back to you on this. In the meantime I don't think anyone's point has been "proven" just yet.

It's in Quintanilla's book along with some other thoughts regarding the case. It seems David's claim that the White House put pressure on to solve the case is not accurate, Quintanilla called them for help.

ufos an air force dilemma - hector quintanilla - Download - 4shared - Andre Tohalex

Another copy can be found here along with Hynek's letter to Menzel where he discusses the terrain near the event and the sporadic burning in the area.

Saturday Night Uforia: Death of a Legend
 
The pranksters resources consisted of a balloon, some sort of flame producing device to burn the area "sporadically," as described by Hynek, and fill the balloon with hot air and some pyrotechnics and noisemakers. That's it! They didn't need any more than that . . . . per Zamora's account. As Colgate wrote to Tony, a hoax is a "no-brainer." Thanks for proving his point.
And how did they produce the "landing tripod" depressions in the already packed soil, depressions that were shown to have needed thousands of pounds of pressure to create?
All of Bragalia's hoax theory is laughable imho...
 
And how did they produce the "landing tripod" depressions in the already packed soil, depressions that were shown to have needed thousands of pounds of pressure to create?
All of Bragalia's hoax theory is laughable imho...

What makes you think they couldn't have done some site prep long before the prank was pulled off?
 
Frank,
Man, you are really sticking to your guns. If this case was a hoax, which I honestly just cannot imagine it being due to the investigative efforts of so many, it was the best hoax of all time. No question.

Via your last angle, has anyone checked the event time frame's weather from that area's specific locale? If it rained prior, or recently thereafter, that geological perspective alone may substantiate the weight required to analyze the impressions and whether or not the event was staged and subsequently hoaxed. Especially if there are actual detailed initial studies of the impressions to begin with. That's key. We know a great deal more today, than we did in those days, with respect to geology forensics. I realize that it's somewhat, mostly desert terrain, but maybe there is an environmental angle that could be checked into apart from the wind's direction.

Confirming the possibility of environmentally effected impression details might be worth a shot.

I simply find too much improbability in the form of actual evidence here, to support the hoax hypothesis that Anthony/Colgate are proposing.
 
Frank,
Man, you are really sticking to your guns. If this case was a hoax, which I honestly just cannot imagine it being due to the investigative efforts of so many, it was the best hoax of all time. No question.

I simply find too much improbability in the form of actual evidence here, to support the hoax hypothesis that Anthony/Colgate are proposing.

I actually agree with that. Apparently, the details of what they actually didn't really require all that much. See the balloon launch video I posted earlier. A little site prep and some pyrotechnics and that was it. I don't think Zamora was fooled. he never expressed to any credible source that what he saw was otherworldly or high tech. This is other people jumping in after the fact and piling on with their own imaginings. The site is key though. Check out these maps of the site:

socorro_map.jpg

map1.gif


The hill between Zamora and the craft is essential. It blocked his view of what the pranksters were doing as he got closer. You talk about improbability, what is the probability of such unique terrain being the site of such an incident? If you look closely, you have to ask yourself did an advanced craft, either Earthly or not, land on the outskirts of Socorro just as Mr. Zamora was chasing a speeding teenager in that direction. The vehicle's occupants, already walking around the immediate landing area are startled by Mr. Zamora seeing them and scramble back into their vehicle, which Mr. Zamora did not see, and took off for the nearby White Sands Missile Range, which in fact isn't nearby at all, it's 80 miles away, or back to their home planet. The final coincidence is the site itself, geographically perfect to pull off such an illusion. Of all the places on Earth an experimental or alien craft could have landed, they chose that one at 5:45 PM on a Friday afternoon on April 24, no more than a month before college finals.
 
Hi Frank,

I think I have asked you this before but don't recall a reply. Can you relate a plausible narrative for what you think happened? Most of the time this stuff is delivered piecemeal and I can't see how its all supposed to hang together.

Tony uncovered some good stuff in this case. He showed that there is evidence that Soccoro was a hoax. But there isn't enough evidence and it's not strong enough to say that anything has been proven.

You are completely right that people like Rudiak overstate things or look only at the possibility that furthers their desire. My memory is that Rudiak vastly understates the times involved. But he is dead right about the wind.

Best,

Lance

With your OK, I'd be happy to post our private email exchange from earlier this year . . . ;)
 
I'll post what I just sent you:

I think the whole thing has intelligent design written all over it. Zamora was drawn to the area by a young speeding driver, the pyrotechnics went off over the balloon to divert him, the road he had to drive down and hill separating the road from his view of the balloon is key. That hill provided them some cover to get ready for the balloon launch. They likely could hear him pull up and let off the second round of pyrotechnics to scare the hell out of him and escape in the other direction as the balloon flew away. It's brilliant in its' simplicity. The guys who did it, at least three, were and are brilliant, brilliant men.
 
So the hoaxers are not concerned about crashing their vehicle or getting caught prior to the hill, or getting caught afterwards by more police on the scene? They have absolute confidence in the timing of the movement of their balloon that will have Zamora stop his vehicle right where he needs to. Isn't that a litte too much risk and gamble for them to pull this off seamlessly? And why Zamora - was he targeted? Did he have folks that wanted to pick specifically on him as there's a lot of work and risk based on many variables. These don't seem to add up.
 
So the hoaxers are not concerned about crashing their vehicle or getting caught prior to the hill, or getting caught afterwards by more police on the scene? They have absolute confidence in the timing of the movement of their balloon that will have Zamora stop his vehicle right where he needs to. Isn't that a litte too much risk and gamble for them to pull this off seamlessly? And why Zamora - was he targeted? Did he have folks that wanted to pick specifically on him as there's a lot of work and risk based on many variables. These don't seem to add up.

I'm sure they were concerned about getting caught, but if they were, I'm not sure the consequences would have been all that severe. "Hey, we set off some fireworks and launched a hot air balloon. So what?"

I don't know that Zamora was targeted, but it's certainly a possibility. Some of Tony's work turned up some talk that he was not well liked in some circles for being especially aggressive but I've heard other talk that it goes the other way. But that's talk, I don't consider it weighty to the hoax argument and if it wasn't him, it certainly might have been someone else.
 
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