The tactics of the JREF

[Rramjet]

For nearly two years I have argued the case for UFOs over at the JREF and I am interested to hear if others might have had – or know of - an experience that might be similar to my own concerning their tactics. I started a thread (among others) titled “UFOs: The Research, The Evidence” and I presented a number of cases to see how the JREF people would deal with them.

I basically received ridicule, denial and abuse in reply. The JREF seems merciless in this approach to anyone who might hold an opinion counter to their own. Over time I came to recognise it to be a deliberate tactic of theirs – they are deliberately rude, mocking and abusive with the intent to elicit an unwise response from the poster – and that then allows the JREF to ban the poster from further posting!

The list of tactics the JREF uses against anyone who might hold an opinion counter to their own (and they seem speak with one voice in a manner that is indistinguishable from a cult) is as long as your arm and is simply too long to list here - but the general thrust is that they will lie about, misrepresent and obfuscate both the evidence and one’s own statements. There is no sense in which they seem to want to get to the truth about a particular UFO case – it is all about the tactics of destroying the credibility of the poster and the evidence. The “truth” (whatever that may be) simply does not matter to them in the slightest – it is all about the tactics of destruction (and of course they argue openly that ridicule and mockery is a legitimate debating tactic…).

They also use the unfounded assertion to great effect. “You have been proved are a liar and a hypocrite” they will proclaim. Or they will state things like “This case has been proven to be a hoax” or “The evidence against your arguments have been put many times. Why do you ignore that evidence?” or “Why have you claimed that you have proof for ET when there is none?” or simply “You have claimed you believe in pink unicorns, so that shows how ridiculous your position is” - all of which of course are outright lies – but they care not – they simply want to get you on the back foot, defending against their unfounded assertions rather than discussing the substance of the case.

Of course the JREF desperately wanted me out of there – I was reasonable and logical and the evidence I was presenting was effective - but they had no legitimate reason to ban me outright, as I had never posted in a manner that broke the forum rules. Of course they eventually did find a way. They eventually used the excuse that I had not originally signed up under my own name. It was not that they could prove that the name I signed up with was not my real name – and it was not even that that the forum rules stated that one could not sign up under a pseudonym - merely that they thought it was possible that my sign in name was not my real name - and so they applied a permanent ban! I can no longer post in the JREF.

To highlight their underhandedness – the JREF has a thread which lists those who have been banned and for what reason – but true to their sneaky form – they have not listed me in that thread as being banned permanently from the JREF - so no-one in the JREF even knows what happened to me or why I am no longer posting. I have simply been “disappeared” - and of course that conjures images of the worst excesses of authoritarian regimes…

Anyway I wondered if anyone here had encountered the JREF and their tactics and might have an opinion about them?

 

[tyder001]

I wouldn't waste my time.

 

[Anaximander]

Do they still do that question barrage where they ask you a bunch of questions/insults and then ban you when you don't answer all of them within 24 hours?

 

[Angel of Ioren]

And then people ask me why, as someone that is skeptical of the paranormal, I post here. If you need a reminder, look at the original post. Even though I disagree with many posters here, people are still civil. Hell, Gene even made me a moderator. Do you think the opposite would be true?
Don't get me wrong, I respect the JREF and James Randi, but the forums are full of assholes. I'm sure it's part of what prompted Phil Plait's "Don't be a Dick" speech, as he knows full well the attitudes of some forum members from when he was the foundation's president.

I just wish there were more skeptics posting here... Lance, can you hear me?

 

[TClaeys]

I agree that many forums can and are full of completely biased A-holes. They don't want any logical and rational discourse. This is true for all kinds of forums where people hide behind avatars and proclaim "their" truth without any work from themselves. Plain and simple there are just jerks around everywhere.

But with that said, what in the world are you doing in that forum trying to convince anyone that UFO's are real unsolved strange mysteries?? Seriously, it's futile and meanwhile incites all kinds of attacks on yourself. It's like trying to convince Rick Perry that gay people deserve equal rights. A complete waste of your time.

 

[Decker]

And then people ask me why, as someone that is skeptical of the paranormal, I post here. If you need a reminder, look at the original post. Even though I disagree with many posters here, people are still civil. Hell, Gene even made me a moderator. Do you think the opposite would be true?
Don't get me wrong, I respect the JREF and James Randi, but the forums are full of assholes. I'm sure it's part of what prompted Phil Plait's "Don't be a Dick" speech, as he knows full well the attitudes of some forum members from when he was the foundation's president.

I just wish there were more skeptics posting here... Lance, can you hear me?

Well Angelo, I must disagree. Actually I think there are a lot of skeptics here. Whether you agree or not, I regard myself as a skeptic. Hell, I am skeptical of most everything these days. The difference is, and it is a big difference, I am willing to listen and then check something out before I throw it out with the bathwater. When you say skeptic, it sounds as if you mean it sounds like horseshit before you have all the facts, am I wrong? Like the Moon for example, without looking at the evidence, do you regard the notion that there might be artifacts, not ours, on the Moon as "horseshit"? Or if you disagree with horseshit, as nonsense? UFOs is another good one. Do you regard the topic of UFOs in general as nonsense or do you look at each case on its own merits? Same-same with cyrpto-zoology or the idea of hauntings, although I hate to mix and match apples and oranges.

Decker

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Well Angelo, I must disagree. Actually I think there are a lot of skeptics here. Whether you agree or not, I regard myself as a skeptic. Hell, I am skeptical of most everything these days. The difference is, and it is a big difference, I am willing to listen and then check something out before I throw it out with the bathwater. When you say skeptic, it sounds as if you mean it sounds like horseshit before you have all the facts, am I wrong? Like the Moon for example, without looking at the evidence, do you regard the notion that there might be artifacts, not ours, on the Moon as "horseshit"? Or if you disagree with horseshit, as nonsense? UFOs is another good one. Do you regard the topic of UFOs in general as nonsense or do you look at each case on its own merits? Same-same with cyrpto-zoology or the idea of hauntings, although I hate to mix and match apples and oranges.

Decker

Yeah, in my opinion, I have seen nothing that shows that there are any unnatural objects on the moon, but I haven't seen what you have so of course I could be wrong.
Hauntings are more to do with psychology than actual dead people.
UFOs are something else - they're pretty hard to prove and can be absolutely anything - are they aliens? I doubt that, but who knows.

Aright, time to go because that bitch Irene is screwing with my power. We've got a great power grid in Quebec, but this it bad.

 

[Rramjet]

I wouldn't waste my time.

LOL. I totally understand the sentiment tyder…

Do they still do that question barrage where they ask you a bunch of questions/insults and then ban you when you don't answer all of them within 24 hours?

They do that and more. They are bullies, pure and simple. They know they cannot compete on evidence and logical argument, so instead they try to bully their opponents into submission. Arguing in their forums actually makes you fearful for your safety. It makes you wonder if you won’t get a knock on your door late at night to be confronted with thugs with baseball bats (or worse). There is absolutely no civility or human empathy in them at all…

In fact I have often thought that if aliens were of a mind to covertly infiltrate and take over a human organisation, it would look very much like the JREF.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the JREF and James Randi, but the forums are full of assholes.

Where does your respect for the JREF and Randi arise from Angel of Ioren? If they preach pseudoscience and use fallacious logic to make their case, shouldn’t they deserve some sceptical attention of their own?

As far as I can tell the whole organisation is rotten, from top to bottom. They are a cult - and worse, are used as a model for sceptical societies worldwide. Their evil brand of “argument” consists of denial, ridicule, abuse, obfuscation, misrepresentation and outright falsehoods. As TClaeys states, they are simply not interested in logical and rational discourse. Rather they are interested in promoting, by whatever means, fair or foul, their own particular belief system – which makes a mockery of the term “sceptical”. The JREF is not a sceptical organisation at all – if anything it more closely resembles a religious cult.

But with that said, what in the world are you doing in that forum trying to convince anyone that UFO's are real unsolved strange mysteries??

I was not trying to convince them of anything – I was merely presenting the research and evidence surrounding UFOs, focussing on some specific cases and research efforts - and observing their reaction. It was sort of like poking a stick into a hornet’s nest… at least those watching from afar might learn something… LOL.

Hauntings are more to do with psychology than actual dead people.

I just had to pick you up on that statement Angel… you called for more sceptics to participate here and that implies you believe a sceptical mindset to be useful in the circumstance – yet you make that statement there as if it were somehow categorically proved. As far as I can tell there is a phenomenon (or set of phenomena) that we label as “hauntings” (or “ghosts”) – but there is no direct evidence that it has anything to do with “dead people”. There is no doubt that there is a psychological component involved, but to put that into juxtaposition with “dead people” demonstrates that your own mindset is not exactly sceptical. It sounds like you have simply made up your mind that the phenomenon (or phenomena) of haunting is:
a) purely psychological and
b) that the only other explanation for it is “dead people”.

That is like saying that UFOs are either psychological or ET. It could be that in both cases we are dealing with real phenomena that actually has nothing to do with “dead people” or “ET”…

 

[Angel of Ioren]

LOL. I totally understand the sentiment tyder…


They do that and more. They are bullies, pure and simple. They know they cannot compete on evidence and logical argument, so instead they try to bully their opponents into submission. Arguing in their forums actually makes you fearful for your safety. It makes you wonder if you won’t get a knock on your door late at night to be confronted with thugs with baseball bats (or worse). There is absolutely no civility or human empathy in them at all…

In fact I have often thought that if aliens were of a mind to covertly infiltrate and take over a human organisation, it would look very much like the JREF.


Where does your respect for the JREF and Randi arise from Angel of Ioren? If they preach pseudoscience and use fallacious logic to make their case, shouldn’t they deserve some sceptical attention of their own?

As far as I can tell the whole organisation is rotten, from top to bottom. They are a cult - and worse, are used as a model for sceptical societies worldwide. Their evil brand of “argument” consists of denial, ridicule, abuse, obfuscation, misrepresentation and outright falsehoods. As TClaeys states, they are simply not interested in logical and rational discourse. Rather they are interested in promoting, by whatever means, fair or foul, their own particular belief system – which makes a mockery of the term “sceptical”. The JREF is not a sceptical organisation at all – if anything it more closely resembles a religious cult.


I was not trying to convince them of anything – I was merely presenting the research and evidence surrounding UFOs, focussing on some specific cases and research efforts - and observing their reaction. It was sort of like poking a stick into a hornet’s nest… at least those watching from afar might learn something… LOL.


I just had to pick you up on that statement Angel… you called for more sceptics to participate here and that implies you believe a sceptical mindset to be useful in the circumstance – yet you make that statement there as if it were somehow categorically proved. As far as I can tell there is a phenomenon (or set of phenomena) that we label as “hauntings” (or “ghosts”) – but there is no direct evidence that it has anything to do with “dead people”. There is no doubt that there is a psychological component involved, but to put that into juxtaposition with “dead people” demonstrates that your own mindset is not exactly sceptical. It sounds like you have simply made up your mind that the phenomenon (or phenomena) of haunting is:
a) purely psychological and
b) that the only other explanation for it is “dead people”.

That is like saying that UFOs are either psychological or ET. It could be that in both cases we are dealing with real phenomena that actually has nothing to do with “dead people” or “ET”…

Lighten up dude.

First off, the JREF speaks out against BS like psychics that take people's money and garbage medicine like homeopathy, which is dangerous in that it keeps people from using medication that works - in that regard, they do great work.
You don't like them - that's totally fine.

With regards to hauntings, what's the most common thing that people think? Is it not dead people or spirits? That's what I was saying. I was ruling that out and I was saying that it's my opinion that' there's something psychological to it. That's all. We even agree on that point. Stop looking for an argument. I agreed with you that that forum is full of assholes. This one is not. EVen when some of us get into arguments, we can still find common ground and agree to disagree. If you're not into that, you'll find it hard here.
You've posted 15 times in this forum - I hope you didn't just show up to pick a fight.

Regards.

 

[Randall]

For nearly two years I have argued the case for UFOs over at the JREF and I am interested to hear if others might have had – or know of - an experience that might be similar to my own concerning their tactics ...

... they have not listed me in that thread as being banned permanently from the JREF - so no-one in the JREF even knows what happened to me or why I am no longer posting. I have simply been “disappeared” - and of course that conjures images of the worst excesses of authoritarian regimes …

Anyway I wondered if anyone here had encountered the JREF and their tactics and might have an opinion about them?

Hey there Ramjet,

Nice to see you posting again. I think you'll find the audience here much more amiable. You might be interested to know that after I mentioned on the JREF that I saw you here, there was a flurry of accusatory responses because their moderator section says you aren't actually banned, but suspended, I assume pending receipt of your actual identity. As you suspected, there were more than a few surprised people who had no idea you had to use your real name when you sign up. I remember when I signed up as USI ( my UFO interest group ), they didn't approve my membership because they wanted my real name.

Personally, since I'd been posting on the same thread as you for several weeks, I can confirm that the tactics you mention are commonplace. I tried to initiate some kind of good will toward mutual cooperation, but so far, nothing really positive has materialized.

You were to the JREF what Lance was to the Paracast. I don't really blame you for keeping your real identity private either. Had I known what I was in for. I probably wouldn't have signed up. Still, there has been some constructive fallout from my posts there, so it hasn't been all a loss. Plus I thought that you did an outstanding job of presenting the case for UFOs regardless of whatever else they may proclaim. Maybe we can get something better going here. Start with something light by voting for your favorite Space Babe! I think t'Pol is still in the lead.

https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/8883-Space-Babes?highlight=space+babes

j.r.

 

[manxman]

Iway

For nearly two years I have argued the case for UFOs over at the JREF and I am interested to hear if others might have had – or know of - an experience that might be similar to my own concerning their tactics. I started a thread (among others) titled “UFOs: The Research, The Evidence” and I presented a number of cases to see how the JREF people would deal with them.

I basically received ridicule, denial and abuse in reply. The JREF seems merciless in this approach to anyone who might hold an opinion counter to their own. Over time I came to recognise it to be a deliberate tactic of theirs – they are deliberately rude, mocking and abusive with the intent to elicit an unwise response from the poster – and that then allows the JREF to ban the poster from further posting!

The list of tactics the JREF uses against anyone who might hold an opinion counter to their own (and they seem speak with one voice in a manner that is indistinguishable from a cult) is as long as your arm and is simply too long to list here - but the general thrust is that they will lie about, misrepresent and obfuscate both the evidence and one’s own statements. There is no sense in which they seem to want to get to the truth about a particular UFO case – it is all about the tactics of destroying the credibility of the poster and the evidence. The “truth” (whatever that may be) simply does not matter to them in the slightest – it is all about the tactics of destruction (and of course they argue openly that ridicule and mockery is a legitimate debating tactic…).

They also use the unfounded assertion to great effect. “You have been proved are a liar and a hypocrite” they will proclaim. Or they will state things like “This case has been proven to be a hoax” or “The evidence against your arguments have been put many times. Why do you ignore that evidence?” or “Why have you claimed that you have proof for ET when there is none?” or simply “You have claimed you believe in pink unicorns, so that shows how ridiculous your position is” - all of which of course are outright lies – but they care not – they simply want to get you on the back foot, defending against their unfounded assertions rather than discussing the substance of the case.

Of course the JREF desperately wanted me out of there – I was reasonable and logical and the evidence I was presenting was effective - but they had no legitimate reason to ban me outright, as I had never posted in a manner that broke the forum rules. Of course they eventually did find a way. They eventually used the excuse that I had not originally signed up under my own name. It was not that they could prove that the name I signed up with was not my real name – and it was not even that that the forum rules stated that one could not sign up under a pseudonym - merely that they thought it was possible that my sign in name was not my real name - and so they applied a permanent ban! I can no longer post in the JREF.

To highlight their underhandedness – the JREF has a thread which lists those who have been banned and for what reason – but true to their sneaky form – they have not listed me in that thread as being banned permanently from the JREF - so no-one in the JREF even knows what happened to me or why I am no longer posting. I have simply been “disappeared” - and of course that conjures images of the worst excesses of authoritarian regimes…

Anyway I wondered if anyone here had encountered the JREF and their tactics and might have an opinion about them?

Hey rammy lad.

Remember me, mr isle of man.

I read that thread for 2 years, first they make it a moderated thread, which actually did you a favour in keeping the noise level down, still the mods let insult after insult through, all the straight up accusations of liar ad infinitum, when you cited everything was ludicrous, the bias in the moderation stinks.

Your fear of being traced and a knock on the door was tongue in cheekish, they are a cult, funny though, think they are safe as houses in their anonymity, they aren't.


Take that robbo timbo character, i would like to slap him of every wall in his house, civilised people have a basic respect for each other, even when of different opinions, still does not stop me wishing i could spend just 5 minutes in a locked room with him.
Anyhow i decided to find out who he was, but i could find nothing mining jref posts.
However he was going under the same name in other places, and talked about jref in them, just the odd ref, however he had been alot more forth-coming with his personal data on his non-attack forums, it was about 18 months ago i looked,
i got to the point where it would of cost me 95c to get his phone number and a few more personal info, i didn't bother anymore from that point.

The ones that upload pictures are the easiest to find, think they are being mocking with their pictures, when they may aswell be waving a red flag "im over here m8", aye funny stuff alright.

Anyway thanks from old manxy for what turned out to be my first read of the day nearly every day for a couple of years,
doesn't look promising here, your first challenge to a post, and it is a mod that gives you a veiled warning, they obviously have no idea just how well you research your postings.

As for jref i am only surprised the management let you ride their pig for so long, a more articulate poster on any forum i have never come across before.

Thanks to ufology for putting up a link in your jref thread to this forum.
i only glance at the latest posts every now and then in that thread now, it is ruined, and that's the way jref works they bury all the good content with merged shit, its their way of killing a thread off.

 

[Ron Collins]

I think the problem is that the UFO subject matter is not their forte. But, they do have definite opinions on UFO's. The problem is that they do not want to get into a debate about specifics of a case or multiple cases. They are just not that well versed on it and it could show that their opinions lack specific case knowledge. That kind of takes away from their message. They, after all, want to project the image of being experts. Even though they most certainly are not experts in the UFO subject. Exposing psychics, yes. Confronting that ghost hunter show baloney, yes. But, certainly not when it comes to combating specifics in UFO cases.

I dont think that Angelo or Lance would even argue that point. (correct me ifI'm wrong guys.)

Ron

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I think the problem is that the UFO subject matter is not their forte. But, they do have definite opinions on UFO's. The problem is that they do not want to get into a debate about specifics of a case or multiple cases. They are just not that well versed on it and it could show that their opinions lack specific case knowledge. That kind of takes away from their message. They, after all, want to project the image of being experts. Even though they most certainly are not experts in the UFO subject. Exposing psychics, yes. Confronting that ghost hunter show baloney, yes. But, certainly not when it comes to combating specifics in UFO cases.

I dont think that Angelo or Lance would even argue that point. (correct me ifI'm wrong guys.)

Ron

Nope Ron, no argument from me. That's why UFOs are the only thing that actually interest me in the paranormal. Most JREF people deal with stuff that can harm people like con artist psychics and useless homeopathy. That's why I totally agree with them in those regards.

 

[carlitos]

Of course the JREF desperately wanted me out of there – I was reasonable and logical and the evidence I was presenting was effective - but they had no legitimate reason to ban me outright, as I had never posted in a manner that broke the forum rules. Of course they eventually did find a way. They eventually used the excuse that I had not originally signed up under my own name. It was not that they could prove that the name I signed up with was not my real name – and it was not even that that the forum rules stated that one could not sign up under a pseudonym - merely that they thought it was possible that my sign in name was not my real name - and so they applied a permanent ban! I can no longer post in the JREF.

To highlight their underhandedness – the JREF has a thread which lists those who have been banned and for what reason – but true to their sneaky form – they have not listed me in that thread as being banned permanently from the JREF - so no-one in the JREF even knows what happened to me or why I am no longer posting. I have simply been “disappeared” - and of course that conjures images of the worst excesses of authoritarian regimes…

Rramjet is not "permanently banned" from the JREF. He is on "administrative suspension" until he provides the information that he agreed to provide when he signed up for the forum. Somehow, it came to the forum's attention that he used an alias, had a sockpuppet, or something similar.

Note: This information is stored in the Forum database, details about how this information is used and how it is secured can be found in the privacy policy. Supplying this information is part of the general terms and conditions for membership of the JREF Forum. If you do not supply the information or supply false information your Membership will not be approved.

As noted by a moderator over on the JREF forum:

[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]No, he has not been banned. He's been administratively suspended, as addressed in a previous thread here.

Unfortunately, Rramjet has chosen not to respond to PMs from an Admin in an effort to clear up the matter, so he will remain suspended administratively until he does so[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

Rramjet, why not just respond to the PMs from the Admin and clear things up? :

 

[Angel of Ioren]

There's always more to the story. Thanks Carlitos.

 

[Rramjet]

Lighten up dude.

LOL. Yeah perhaps I should! My experience over at the JREF has jaded me somewhat and has perhaps made me a little over-sensitive…

First off, the JREF speaks out against BS like psychics that take people's money and garbage medicine like homeopathy, which is dangerous in that it keeps people from using medication that works - in that regard, they do great work.
You don't like them - that's totally fine.

I don’t mind that the JREF speaks out about such things, it is just their methodology that concerns me – they often seem to use precisely the same pseudoscientific methodology to attack “woo” as the “woosters” use to defend it. But they go further, defending mockery and ridicule as legitimate tactics and often descending into outright abuse.

With regards to hauntings, what's the most common thing that people think? Is it not dead people or spirits? That's what I was saying. I was ruling that out and I was saying that it's my opinion that' there's something psychological to it. That's all. We even agree on that point.

You did not say it was your opinion – you stated the categorical (that is: “Hauntings are more to do with psychology than actual dead people.”). If you had prefaced your statement in that regard with “In my opinion …” (as you did your preceding statement) then I would have had no argument with your credentials as a sceptic. However, as soon as you stated the categorical then you had better be prepared to defend it with evidence and/or logical argument. As far as I can tell there is no evidence to support the contention that the cause of (some) hauntings (however unlikely it may seem) is not “dead people” - and there is also no evidence that it has “more to do with psychology” (in fact as far as I know, the research actually shows that, as with UFOs, the psychological factor is minimal and not statistically significant). Like UFOs, hauntings remain a mystery. You may of course legitimately hold an opinion that they are psychological manifestations, but that opinion is not supported by the evidence.

Stop looking for an argument. I agreed with you that that forum is full of assholes. This one is not. EVen when some of us get into arguments, we can still find common ground and agree to disagree. If you're not into that, you'll find it hard here. You've posted 15 times in this forum - I hope you didn't just show up to pick a fight.

LOL. Yes, I fully appreciate that you did agree that the JREF forum was full of arseholes - and no I do not want to merely pick a fight here. But I do reserve the right to call out others when they claim to be sceptical but make statements that seem to demonstrate they are not. Nevertheless I apologise to you if my manner of presenting that in regard to your own statements came across to you as me wanting to pick a fight. My intention was merely to highlight how easily we ALL (and I do include myself in that) may slip into an unsceptical mindset when we hold certain strong beliefs about things.

I also do believe there is a common ground between us (I have an extremely hard time with the “spirits of the dead” explanation), but there are also differences (the “psychological” explanation does not have any evidence going for it either – in fact quite the opposite). Those are the points I was (and am) trying to convey. I believe they are legitimate and relevant points and I hope I am able to make those points without it being considered that I merely want to pick a fight. That is not my intention and I apologise to you if that is how it came across.

Rr.

---------- Post added at 12:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------

Rramjet is not "permanently banned" from the JREF. He is on "administrative suspension" until he provides the information that he agreed to provide when he signed up for the forum. Somehow, it came to the forum's attention that he used an alias, had a sockpuppet, or something similar.

As noted by a moderator over on the JREF forum:

Rramjet, why not just respond to the PMs from the Admin and clear things up? :

It is a permanent (not a temporaray) "administrative suspension" carlitos and the only way I am able to have that suspension removed is to reveal my true identity to the JREF (I did sign up under an alias - but how many other JREF members have been banned under the same rule carlitos?) - and considering the vitriol and abuse I have received in the forum - with the obvious impromature of the moderaters - I am not about to do that and consequently risk my name then being blackened outside the forum. I have a career and a family I wish to protect from such assaults. So unless I hand over my real name and details to the JREF - which given their behaviour toward me I am not about to do - then I have - in effect - been permanently banned from posting - it is as simple as that.

---------- Post added at 12:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------

Hey there Ramjet,

Nice to see you posting again. I think you'll find the audience here much more amiable. You might be interested to know that after I mentioned on the JREF that I saw you here, there was a flurry of accusatory responses because their moderator section says you aren't actually banned, but suspended, I assume pending receipt of your actual identity. As you suspected, there were more than a few surprised people who had no idea you had to use your real name when you sign up. I remember when I signed up as USI ( my UFO interest group ), they didn't approve my membership because they wanted my real name.

Personally, since I'd been posting on the same thread as you for several weeks, I can confirm that the tactics you mention are commonplace. I tried to initiate some kind of good will toward mutual cooperation, but so far, nothing really positive has materialized.

You were to the JREF what Lance was to the Paracast. I don't really blame you for keeping your real identity private either. Had I known what I was in for. I probably wouldn't have signed up. Still, there has been some constructive fallout from my posts there, so it hasn't been all a loss. Plus I thought that you did an outstanding job of presenting the case for UFOs regardless of whatever else they may proclaim. Maybe we can get something better going here. Start with something light by voting for your favorite Space Babe! I think t'Pol is still in the lead.

https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/8883-Space-Babes?highlight=space+babes

j.r.

Hey there ufology! Good to hear from you and thanks for the vote of confidence. Of course they'll try and 'spin" it to make out that I actually have a real choice in the matter and that it was somehow all of my own doing anyway (carlitos, a member of the JREF, has already made a good effort to spin it in this forum already)... (shrugs), that's just the way they play the game I guess. I simply ask the question how many other members of the JREF have signed up under an alias and how many of those members have been banned under the same rule? If they consistently applied the rule I wonder how many members they would have left?

I know your initial approach to the JREF was positively conciliatory, but was met with the same old, same old… there is no sense that they understand that it is perfectly legitimate for others to hold opinions contrary to their own – they are simply implacable in their own beliefs (as if somehow they alone hold a monopoly on what constitutes reality) and anyone differing from those beliefs is either mad or bad and deserving of no respect whatsoever. I wish you luck over there (if you have decided to continue your association - and your approach to them is certainly considered and insightful), but I for one certainly won’t be returning any time soon.

As for voting for my favourite space babe? I’ll definitely have to look into that one! LOL.

Cheers j.r.

Rr.

 

[Decker]

Some time ago I ventured over the the JREF forum on another matter concerning the paranormal and I observed how they treated the people that, at that time, I was interested in. Me? Well, had I been a member I would have been banned because I would have simply told those rude bastards to fuck off.

Me? Well over the years I have butted heads with all the major skeptics and most of them either avoid me or we have even become somewhat friends, agreeing to not debate the merits of .... mostly the UFO topic. I know and knew them all, Oberg, Shermer, Klass, Nickle, hell, actually I forget who else. As an example, I "broke" Shermer's "cherry" on UFOs on my old national radio program, UFOs Tonite! back about 94 or 95. Seeing all these "wanna-be's" hurling their insults and what have you, I had to laugh. I really doubt if most of them would really make a pimple on the ass of someone like Oberg or Klass.

Hey, if you wanna debate the merits of something, buddy .. I am your guy. But if you simply think your gonna run me off by hurling insults at me ... well do not bump into me while I am out having a beer.

Decker

 

[Rramjet]

Hi manxman -

Yep, I certainly remember you. Hard to forget those very few who actually attempted to stand up to them instead of being bullied out of the room! But don't get me started on RoboT... He (in my opinion) is one of the lowest forms of humanity and I simply cannot understand how he is allowed to get away with what he does - well, actually I can guess - he serves a useful purpose to the JREF - their resident attack dog with no moral qualms whatsoever - he is positively sociopathic in his approach, totally shameless.... but of course he is not alone in his approach....

It does not surprise me that the thread is now ruined. They tried everything in their power to ruin it even while I was posting to keep it on track (and yes the moderated status - even though it was a tactic initially instituted to ruin the thread actually did work in my favour) - but now that I have gone - well, I am not even going to look to see what has happened to it - it would only depress me! LOL. The same with my other baby - the "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is nonsense. Here's why..." thread I suppose...

Anyway, good to hear from you, and I am now in a better place (I hope)

 

[Angel of Ioren]

We argue here as well, but we keep it pretty civil. Take Don and I for example. We have disagreed in the past but we don't hate each other.

 

[Rramjet]

Some time ago I ventured over the the JREF forum on another matter concerning the paranormal and I observed how they treated the people that, at that time, I was interested in. Me? Well, had I been a member I would have been banned because I would have simply told those rude bastards to fuck off.

Me? Well over the years I have butted heads with all the major skeptics and most of them either avoid me or we have even become somewhat friends, agreeing to not debate the merits of .... mostly the UFO topic. I know and knew them all, Oberg, Shermer, Klass, Nickle, hell, actually I forget who else. As an example, I "broke" Shermer's "cherry" on UFOs on my old national radio program, UFOs Tonite! back about 94 or 95. Seeing all these "wanna-be's" hurling their insults and what have you, I had to laugh. I really doubt if most of them would really make a pimple on the ass of someone like Oberg or Klass.

Hey, if you wanna debate the merits of something, buddy .. I am your guy. But if you simply think your gonna run me off by hurling insults at me ... well do not bump into me while I am out having a beer.

Decker

Hey there Decker -

You sound like a very knowledgeable and interesting guy! I listened with interest to your recent Paracast interview. If I have time I’ll have to go back and look up the Dark Matters radio archives.

But, you’re right of course, the current crop of JREFers does not hold a candle to the likes of Oberg, Shermer, Nickel or (the late great) Klass – but there is one member, though not quite of the same calibre, who comes straight out of the mould of Klass and Nickel– Astrophotographer (Tim Printy). He has obviously studied how Klass operated and employs exactly the same methodology. He shamelessly misleads and misrepresents (and accuses his opponent of the very sins he himself commits) - but only does it by insinuation and implication - so that if challenged directly, he always has that “plausible deniability” to fall back on (“Oh, that is not what I meant, you are reading too much into what I stated. Show me where actually stated what you are accusing me of…”, etc and so on). Very slippery character.

Anyway, without wanting to sound gushing, I am gratified to now be in a forum that boasts in its membership people such as yourself.

Best regards,

Rr.

---------- Post added at 01:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 AM ----------

We argue here as well, but we keep it pretty civil. Take Don and I for example. We have disagreed in the past but we don't hate each other.

Thank you Angel. That (implied) respect for other's opinions while agreeing to disagree will be a welcome breath of fresh air for me -coming as I have straight out of the cauldron of the JREF where civil discourse surrounding differences of opinion is practically unheard of and vitriol and hatred seem par for the course. But it is not only that, it was the lack of logical debate in the JREF that got to me also. It was as if the rules of evidence and logic were turned on their head and every logical fallacy was trotted out against me - then they would turn around and completely without foundation accuse me of the very same logical fallacies they themselves had committed. It was complete madness... Perhaps when I recover my equanimity sufficiently I might even start the same (or a similar) process (as I did over there) in this forum and see what the result might be...