The Tomb of Jesus?

[Tom Levine]

Well, here's a link to the recent AP article on the upcoming James Cameron documentary, to be aired on Discovery Channel, entitled "The Lost Tomb of Jesus": THIS WAY TO THE NEWS STORY

I'll just quote the first paragraph of the article. It sums the issue up nicely:

"The burial site of Jesus has been found and suggests he had a wife and son, according to highly sensitive claims in a documentary by "Titanic" director James Cameron and Israel-born Simcha Jacobovici..."

I'm no expert on this stuff. It's clearly controversial. Certainly, this is going to be fresh, new fodder for OUR BOYS on TheParacast!

Noory aired the "Anti-Cameron" argument last night, in full force. I found it boring and one-sided, frankly, and fell asleep at some point, but the gist of it is this: That these tombs are common, that these names are common, that the tombs themselves are questionable, and that the DNA within the tombs cannot be physically proven to be related to the big "J".

I must say, that all of that makes perfect sense.

On THE OTHER HAND...The article outlines the evidence found, and it is certainly compelling. This tomb was apparently found while in Jerusulam, in 1980, by a developer, while building a new apartment complex. Multiple and extensive testing was conducted, and the thing is 2000 years old, and dated to yup, the 1st Century. Oh, by the way, here's a new word for the day...Can you say, "ossuaries..." ew, gross. Anyway...

The ossuaries (blech!) within the tomb (I think I got that right), are inscribed in aramic with some very compelling names: "...Jesus, Mary, Matthew, Joseph and Mary Magdalene. A sixth inscription, written in Aramaic, translates to "Judah Son of Jesus."..." You get the point.

In addition, mitochondrial DNA testing was conducted on the Jesus bones and the Mary bones, and they are not related by blood. The investigators claim that this is an important find, because historically, if you're not related by blood, and you're chilling out in an ossuary and sharing a tomb, that means that you're spouses. So, the inference is that Mary and Jesus were married and had a family, of course.

There was one thing in the article which I didn't buy, and that's the quote by archeologist Amos Kloner: "I'm a scholar. I do scholarly work which has nothing to do with documentary film-making. There's no way to take a religious story and to turn it into something scientific," he told AFP in a telephone interview..."I still insist that it is a regular burial chamber from the 1st century BC," Kloner said, adding that the names were a coincidence..."

The names are a coincidence? Um, you've got to be kidding me. Anytime someone says something as cocky as "I'm a scholor", I begin discounting what they have to say. That's called, hanging your hat on your laurels. It's like saying "Trust me, I'm smarter than you, and I'm telling you what you need to know..." A coincidence? A coincidence. Hmmm. Like I said before, I'm no expert, but telling me that you're a scholar, that it's a coincidence, and by the way, don't mess up religious beliefs with scientific study...Well you know, that just doesn't take with me. With all due respect, respectfully, religious stories are absolutely fair game for scientific research. If it were not, then none of us would have enjoyed decades of riveting documentaries on the search for Noah's Ark!




Personally, I render no conclusion of all of this, but one things for sure: I most certainly will DVR that documentary, and will probably watch it a trillion times.

 

[Jamie56]

Here's the official site: www.jesusfamilytomb.com

There's articles, forums, and interview footage.

 

[pixelsmith]

it is like finding a tomb of the Tom Smith family! wow RARE find.

 

[Tom Levine]

Thanks for the link! I'll favorite it for future ponderings

 

[Tom Levine]

it is like finding a tomb of the Tom Smith family! wow RARE find.

Right. That's what they were saying last night on Noory.

I was just thinking...If it is in fact, incredibly common, then I would expect there to be other ossuaries, tombs, and what-nots, lying around Jerusalems' bedrock, which name Jesus, Mary, etc., from the 1st century. Yes?

In other words, the argument is that these are extremely common names from that era, and therefore, this isn't the big "J". It's just some shmo. Well, let's see the rebuttle evidence then. We've got one tomb with all of the major players. Find me two or three more Jesus tombs from the 1st century, and I think that would strongly bolster the argument that Cameron's Jesus, is nothing more than another "Tom Smith".

 

[riggs2099]

I don't see what the big deal is? I mean the bible and all other religions are based on myth. So what if they found the tomb of jesus..all it proves is that he existed and was probably a cult leader and not the messiah. I believe in afterlife and everything that may come with it, but to believe that there was a messiah...c'mon..get real. I am pretty sure if there was one then there would be a world full of peace and love. The whole bible story may have some facts but i bet any money that the stories have been changed through out the centuries as they were handed down. Religion and everything it stands for should be outlawed anyways..its' nothing but a waste of time.

 

[Tom Levine]

I don't see what the big deal is?

Should I take this one? Oh boy.

Well, I could go a couple different directions, but let me focus on two points.

Point 1:

Did you know that there are over 1 billion people on the planet who claim to be Catholic?

In the United States, approximately 80% of this country are Christians in one form or another. 15% are non religious, and the remaining 5% is everyone else, including Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and non-denominationals.

So, yes! It is a big deal. A VERY, VERY BIG DEAL.

It's easy to see how this story will affect people from a religious, spiritual, psychological, and emotional standpoint, but I have one more angle for you to consider: Far more important than that, is the prospect of what this could do to the overall world power structure. Ah yes, the fodder of conspiracy theorists world-wide. I have two words for you...Money, and Power.

Point 2:

You appear to be a pragmatist, with a slight bend towards agnosticism, or perhaps I can best describe you as a non-denominational spiritual agnostic. Anyway, your views are totally acceptable, and totally respectable. Just keep in mind, that everyone is entitled to their own belief system. Regardless of what the evidence might ultimately reveal about Christianity, almost everyone is in fact, on a spiritual journey of one form or another, Atheists included. It's the conclusions that we render, that make us different, and so interesting. I think it's worth it to be mindful of those differences, and respect them as equally as you might respect your own final conclusions.
t

 

[pixelsmith]

religion is the number one killer of humans. we could ALL do without it.

 

[Tom Levine]

religion is the number one killer of humans. we could ALL do without it.

My Father-In-Law felt that way. He used to wear a cross and a star of David around his neck as a form of quiet protest. He also passed away last year of cancer. Without getting into too many private details, let me just say this: People tend to seek religion in great times of need. You may not think it's important right now, but don't beat yourself up too much when life, and death, comes at you fast. You're only human. Think weddings and funerals.

By the way, religion doesn't kill people. That's physically impossible. Religion is not a living thing.

People kill people, for a wide variety of reasons. Religion can be one of those reasons. Like everything else, it has its benefits, and its demons. But, it's most certainly an integral part of the human condition, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that it will never go away.

 

[pixelsmith]

no, religion kills. just like guns kill.

i practically grew up in church, my mom taught sunday school, i taught sunday school, i was confirmed, etc etc. i have nearly died at least 6 times, i have broken my neck twice, (C5/C2) i have been struck by lightning, i have benn buried alive, i have been in 3 roll overs, and many more accidents. 6 years ago i held my uncle as he died, last year i had an incredible experience with my aunt as she died, 11 months ago my own mother died as i held her hand. i have had my share of death and dying so dont give me that line.

i have had bull**** religions (catholic and lutheran), my "religion" is now Mother Nature. nothing gets fondled but the flora. no collection plates, no "my gods unit is bigger than your gods unit". that stuff gets thousands of people killed every year. yes, people kill people but they use religion as their gun.

 

[Tom Levine]

Well, I'm not going to pick a fight with you. Perhaps we can let this thread get back on track, or just let it go.

 

[redalton]

This is going to be a very interesting subject for debate - the outcome could have some serious impacts on the world of Christianity. Although, with belief systems so strong it is difficult to estimate how this information will play out.

I am interested in seeing the documentary, from all the media and press coverage so far there is already a great deal of skepticism and doubt.

I can only imagine what this would do for the Islamists - and the extremists out there, they would think they were winning some sort of great battle.

This could turn out to be rather ugly in the end.

 

[Tom Levine]

This is going to be a very interesting subject for debate - the outcome could have some serious impacts on the world of Christianity. Although, with belief systems so strong it is difficult to estimate how this information will play out.

I am interested in seeing the documentary, from all the media and press coverage so far there is already a great deal of skepticism and doubt.

I can only imagine what this would do for the Islamists - and the extremists out there, they would think they were winning some sort of great battle.

This could turn out to be rather ugly in the end.

Phew! Thanks for getting this thread back on track.

I agree with everything you said. The impact here could be tremendous on a wide and complex variety of fronts, especially including the current global issues we find ourselves in.

It really will hinge on the evidence, don't you think? Both sides of the argument are so compelling. Cameron is no Angel...This could be all about Hollywood, there's no doubt of that. The documentary could be glitz and glam, and the selling of old evidence, discovered over 27 years ago. On the other hand, we could be looking at new, compelling revelations (no pun intended) on this subject. The premise, as set forth in the news article link in the first post of this thread, is alarmingly coincidental.

Back to your point, if the documentary pushes science in this new direction, if we are really looking at the real-life unveiling of "The Da Vinci Code", then I think the ramifications are hugely understated at this point. Our world would, simply put, be re-shaped. We would be living in a new era. The 2100 year chapter of history in the human condition, would end, and a new chapter would begin. I think that's a fair statement to make.

 

[DBTrek]

We need to test the DNA from the caskets to determine whether or not 'Jesus' is the father of Anna Nicole Smith's child.



-DBTrek

 

[austinpowers]

Its jolly sad that people think there has to be more to Jesus, than is told in the Bible. Why is it so important to 'discover' if he had a child or not...?
Is the key lesson not the good deeds that he did, and the values he stood for.... or is this 'discovery,' buy an extension of modern commercial America...? You decide.

 

[redalton]

Phew! Thanks for getting this thread back on track.

Back to your point, if the documentary pushes science in this new direction, if we are really looking at the real-life unveiling of "The Da Vinci Code", then I think the ramifications are hugely understated at this point.

The "Da Vinci Code" is very good example - the book and the movie have both brought all kinds of controversy that has stirred up a lot of debate in the religious communities. In the end the Da Vinci Code was not very threatening because it did not offer any kind of evidence - just an alternate story - mostly put forth as an entertainment piece.

These tombs could possibly produce hard scientific evidence that may not be so easy to dismiss- this could actually challenge the long standing organizational and institutional beliefs. There is a lot riding on this story - there is a great deal of history, money, and power wrapped up in organized Christianity.

In a lot of ways I don't know how they could or would be willing except any damning evidence. At this point I don' think they really have a choice - they are more then likely going to defend their beliefs regardless of the outcome.

I will be following this story to see how it develops.

 

[KorMan]

The Discovery Channel's reputation is about to tank. It's their jump-the-shark moment. No loss.

 

[Tom Levine]

This was the #1 story of the evening tonight on Anderson Cooper. The director Simcha Jacobovici was just interviewed on CNN in a debate like format with an Archeologist from a Catholic University. The gist of the debate was really the same common themes we've discussed in this thread, so I won't go into too much rehashing on the subject, but okay you talked me into it...Maybe just a little:

Jacobovici's position was essentially that the statistical probability of the key biblical names appearing in this tomb, in these ossuaries, at this time in history, is a thousand to one. He points to statistical experts in the documentary that will bolster this claim.

The archeologists position is that there's nothing scientifically concrete here, that it is really speculation, that these were common names in this time period, and that it is all coincidental. Further, the archeologist did not hold much weight to the DNA testing of Mary and Jesus, indicating that it's a big stretch to call them married, simply because the DNA does not match.

The media-blitz issue also came up. Jacobovici made it clear that he does not claim or pretend to be a scientist. He was educated as a journalist, and this documentary is what he brings to the table on this subject. He is, essentially, getting the word out about this subject.

So again, this developing story is compelling. It certainly smacks of a media-blitz, and Cameron is no stranger to how to make a buck. It certainly worked on me. Like I said before, I'll DVR it this Sunday night, and will probably watch it a trillion times. That said, I see Jacobovici's point. The statistical coincidence, at least from a laymans' standpoint, is striking. If it's true, then the ramifications are far reaching. Let the debates begin!

 

[Recon]

The thing is, it doesn't even to seem like any Christian groups want to even look into it... just reject it... They will never accept anything that might throw some doubt into their faith...

First off have these Christians read the bible??? do they believe it all to be literal??? because if they do then they have bigger problems..

This tomb is very interesting, to find all the important names. Even with the common names of Jesus, marry and Joseph. These are important names to religion, so why not look into it.

I have seen some religious scholars, say it can't be the tomb, it is the wrong place... I go back to taking the bible as literal proof, it would never hold up in court so why take its accounts at blind faith.

"""""""""
there are so many versions of the bible and it as been edited, stuff has been left out and probably modified over the past 2000 years... This is why I can't trust any religious speakers... I just have to believe in what I believe...

as for the DNA testing they did... that proves nothing.

can't wait to see the show tomorrow.

 

[Tom Levine]

Did anyone watch this weeks episode of Bill Maher on HBO? His first bit was poking fun of Cameron...It was called 'James Camerons, In Search of Santa Claus". Very funny stuff. They found the lost naughty-nice list. Too funny.

Anyway, Documentary's on tonight! Yippee. Should be rock-solid entertainment.