The Tomb of Jesus?

[interestedINitall]

By the way, religion doesn't kill people. That's physically impossible. Religion is not a living thing.

People kill people, for a wide variety of reasons. Religion can be one of those reasons. Like everything else, it has its benefits, and its demons. But, it's most certainly an integral part of the human condition, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that it will never go away.

The bit of sophistry notwithstanding, I agree with the assessment. The unfortunate aspect in that truth being that people seldom think of religion (and by that I mean the contemporary forms of the "big three") as something off of which the human race needs to be weened. Sure, people will, quite rightly, concede that pollution is bad and that obesity in children is a growing problem but few seem to have a problem with the fact that a large percentage of the world's population believes in magic people with wings, corpses rising from the dead and a man in a white beard counting the fall of every sparrow and they do so for other reason than they've been told to (factor in fear of death and lack of education, of course).

I personally have no social problem with religion until it tries to become a social movement. If one wants to worship the now famous Flying Spaghetti Monster then he or she should have the right to do so. However, when enough of the "Spaghettites" get together and try to influence legislation to deny certain members of the population their rights, disallow woman control over their bodies, etc. a line must be drawn. I'm aware that religion has always held sway over secular life and acceptance of that is part of the "unfortunate aspect" I previously mentioned. Wholesale slavery was a First World mainstay for thousands of years and as of this day in 2007 no nation that calls itself civilized would tolerate it. Why then can't we shake the "holy" monkey on our collective back?

If only people were more spiritual and less religious. Religion seems to be a way of opting out of spirituality. Many of the "devout" think that if they go to a prescribed building, burns some incense, genuflect in some fashion and say words from a book or a scroll or what have you, they have earned their spiritual "flier miles" for the week and don't actually have to put any of the teachings (expect those that exclude and persecute, of course, those are useful for getting one's way) into practice.

Oh well, that's my screed and I'm sticking to it.

PS: I'll justify my digression by saying that if this tomb controversy pans out (and I doubt it will) I'll welcome the "damage" (a very telling word I've heard used in this story in the media lately) it would do to current perceptions of the Christ myth. A serious rethinking (NOT one that is made into a movie for addled hausfraus who love Oprah) is long overdue.

 

[KorMan]

It's obviously for entertainment. It has no historical value whatever.

The thing is, it doesn't even to seem like any Christian groups want to even look into it... just reject it... They will never accept anything that might throw some doubt into their faith...

We are not interested in watching arrant nonsense. When a thing is preposterous on its face, it merits no serious consideration. And it bloody well doesn't cause us to doubt our faith.

Every year at about the same time, the Philip Klass wannabes of religion issue another dollop of drivel in an attempt to discredit our faith. It never works and never will, but they get a B+ for effort and tenacity, even though they merit an F for content.

I note that they don't do similar things about Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism et al. Why is that? I'd like to see the reaction to a Discovery Channel special depicting Muhammad as a hallucinatory pedophile. It would be interesting, given the events in Demark over a few cartoons.

 

[pixelsmith]

KorMan said "When a thing is preposterous on its face, it merits no serious consideration."

ineresting that i always considered KorMan to be preposterous...

Religion sucks. It is the leading cause of death in Humans.

 

[DVS]

This story is just recycled and packaged differently with Cameron's stamp of approval this time around. The whole thing is actually decades old and was discarded back then and will be this time around.

This is what is becoming the traditional "debunking christinaity" theme that occurs every Easter and Christmas season in the main stream media, more specifically the Discovery Channel. Regardless of the factuality and results of these attmepts, it questions the entire basis of Christianity, which does insult Christians. And people worry about insult Islam with a feeble little cartoon, and then tip toe around 'insulting mohammed', just look at the crap Christians have to go through and how their religion is put through the ringer.

That is why I brought up the Shroud of Turin in another thread, which basically has no interest these days. I found that the all of the debunking attempts have effectively been debunked, even the latest attempt in 2005 (photograph/ painting/Da Vinci created it). The community that attempts to scientifically debunk Jesus & Christianity has lost interest in this, since the more they try to disprove it, the more it appears to be authentic.

 

[interestedINitall]

Wow, I can't imagine why anyone would be hostile toward any of the world's major religions. It's not as though certain religious groups constantly insinuate their world view into secular life or anything like that.

For shame, Doc!

 

[Alea]

Anyone else think it odd that no other ossuaries were found in the general vicinity? Would this ossuary be found alone or in a cemetery/burial area? Also, and perhaps most importantly, during the Middle Ages, most of Jerusalem was well combed for relics of all kinds to prove the existence of Jesus, saints, religious events and occurences. The fact that this ossuary, with Jesus' name and Mary Magdalene's name, is in tact and missed the medieval fervor of the Crusades and the claiming of Jerusalem, is interesting in itself.

 

[DBTrek]

Hey guys, I went to Jerusalem last year and found Jesus's comb. Who wants it? Bidding starts at $1,000,000. If the auction tops 5 million I'll throw in his iPod.

-DBTrek

 

[CapnG]

We are not interested in watching arrant nonsense. When a thing is preposterous on its face, it merits no serious consideration. And it bloody well doesn't cause us to doubt our faith.

Absolutely. BTW Korman, did you hear about this Copernicus jackass? Heliocentric theory indeed... what a joker!

Regarding the tomb, I don't really care about it one way or the other but I am fascinated by the repercutions of it's implications. Think about it; if genuine not only does this crap all over the divinity of Jesus it also craps all over the work of people like Acharya S. who claim Jesus never existed. Two groups pissed off for the price of one!

 

[Tom Levine]

The bit of sophistry notwithstanding, I agree with the assessment...

InterestedINitall, I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. I have to apologize. I think I became embroiled in a bit of digression from my own thread myself. That said, I understand where you're coming from, and I'm willing to accept the feedback, for what it's worth. I had to look "sophistry" up, and in retrospect, I think you may be right.

Also, your concerns with regard to organized religion are completely valid. In historical context, one would be hard-pressed to prove you wrong.

At the same time, I just think, simply put, that the key to this "religion" issue, is tolerance.

Hopefully, we'll be able to discuss the specifics of Camerons' Tomb, the facts discovered, their validity or lack thereof, and their impact, be it "damage" or insight. I'll find that part of this story the MOST interesting...Delving into the nitty-gritty of the science as portrayed in this film.

 

[Tom Levine]

I've now watched the documentary in its entirety. Wow, there's so much that could be commented on. Let me pick a couple things, and run with it:


1) I have little doubt now that the Ossuaries are real, that they are 2000 years old, that 10 Ossuaries were retrieved from this tomb in 1980, and that the inscriptions on 9 of the 10 Ossuaries are genuine. The evidence is quite lucid on these points. These are assumptions that I personally am very comfortable making. Did you SEE the inscriptions? They are TRULY AMAZING! There is no way that this was hoaxed out, or reinscribed upon after being discovered. Almost all of the scholars that I've heard so far, are in full agreement with these facts (the ones listed here in statement 1), so let's start there. The genuine validity of this tomb and these ossuaries are not in doubt, at least not that I've heard so far.

2) A compelling intellectual argument took place in the film that you might want to pay attention to. It took place between film-maker Simcha Jacobovici and The Israeli museum Curator (sorry, don't have his name...I have to watch it a second time), the discussion has to do with an archeological double-standard. You see, many ossuaries have been discovered in Israel, and have been identified as historical and biblical figures based on similar studies to those ossuaries, such as studying the inscriptions and comparing them to biblical references. Archeologists, for example, have identified a high likelyhood that the Priest who sentenced Jesus to crucification (sorry, no name yet...Gotta watch it again) was identified, as was the first Pope of the Catholic Church, again both based on inscription (even though Pope I is alleged to be buried in Rome...). Yet, when similar evidence is produced with regard to whether or not "these" ossuaries are the ossuaries of the family of Jesus, based on inscription evidence, archeologists shy away from the subject. I found this discussion to be absolutely rivetting. Jacobovici makes a very good point. There does seem to be an archeological double-standard. Why not consider the evidence on this tomb, to the same standards that other, similiar finds have been examined in and around Jerusulem? Why identify one set of ossuaries that are not Jesus, with less evidence than that which has been gathered on the Jesus tomb?

3) Listen to statistician Dr. Andrey Feuerverger very carefully, before rendering a final conclusion that this is all bunk. Dr. Feuerverger has quantified the inscription data, based on every, known name in Jeruselum during the 1st century era. Now if you haven't seen the film, pay attention to this point, because it's very important. You have to make two, very large leaps, in order to get here:

The first if: That the ossuary inscribed as Mariamene e mara, is in fact Mary Magdelene.

The second if: That the 10th lost, and later found ossuary of "James, brother of Jesus", is not forgery, but is in fact the ossuary of James that belonged inside the Jesus tomb.

Now, back to the statistitian. If the first 'if' with regard to Mary Magdelene is true, than the chance that this is NOT the biblical Jesus is 1:600.

If the second if, with regard to "James", is also true, then the chance that this is NOT the biblical Jesus is 1:30,000.

That's One in 30,000!

4) So, what does this mean? Well, it means before you (or anyone else for that matter) discounts the theories presented by Jacobovici as bunk, you have to first understand the assumptions they are making about Mary and James. Boiling it down to nuts and bolts, that is the core of the issue. I think the statistical analysis is perfectly reasonable. If all the assumptions are true, than this absolutely is the Biblical Jesus. So, the thing to discuss is the assumptions. Specifically, Mary and James.

And, there was OH SO MUCH MORE in this film that we could talk about. But without getting into too much more detail, let me draw a quick conclusion:

I think it would be a mistake to simply discount this films theories, and findings, and analysis. The argument presented in this documentary is absolutely viable. The science completely reinforces Jacobovici's theories presented. The connections and analysis made needs to be discussed, but they are lucid and reasonable. There is historical reference that suggests this is indeed the ossuary of Mary Magdelene. There is micron data from the "James" ossuary, a fingerprint if you will, which suggest that this ossuary is in fact the "lost" 10th ossuary missing from this tomb, and could be "james, brother of Jesus". So, do I think this the biblical Jesus? Well, I think this could be him. I think there is scientific information gathered which might support that claim, and I think it would be ignorant to simply let it go. At the same time, the "Mary" and "James" leap, is really one worth schollarly debate. I want to HEAR that debate. The scientific agreement really hinges on this core issue. The assumptions and connections that they are making, which lead them to "Mary" and "James" could be in error. If they are in error, than this might not be biblical Jesus.

One more point. 4% of the men in Jeruselum were "Jesus", and 25% of the women in Jeruselum were "Mary". If you hear the argument that THIS is enough to discredit the Jesus Tomb, then reconsider. 6 of the 10 ossuaries had inscriptions. Several of these inscriptions are found in the Jesus/Mary biblical lineage, which are rare, such as "jose", and one other one I can't think of. Anyway, the lineage fingerprint is not simply "Jesus" and "Mary", but the combination of all inscriptions together. That fingerprint is what makes this find so unique, to a degree of 1:600 or 1:30,000 depending on the analysis. It is the combination of these family names that make them unique, and that is why statistically, assuming "Mary" and "James", this would be the real tomb of Jesus.

 

[Tom Levine]

Here's an example of the other voice I've been hearing ont his subject: a typical report I've seen out there, voting against the Jesus Tomb theory.

Some of you might share the same view with this article. I totally understand, and I don't wish to disparage your viewpoint in any way, or come across as being "anti-christianity" at all. I've said it before, and I'll say it now. I am not anti-christianity.

But here's the problem I have with this article, and others like it. Stephen Yulish, PHD, who wrote this article for UFODIGEST.COM no less (not necessarily a right-wing anti-paranormal rag...), gives no mention to any factual data concerning the Tomb theory. His entire position is reactive, based solely on emotion. Look, this might not be the Tomb of Jesus, but at the very least, a PHD should argue his or her position based on the facts. I would have expected more, coming from someone who wrote a doctorals thesis to achieve PHD status.

This gentleman claims that the Tomb theory is a "sham". Mighty strong words. He alleges that this is an attempt to "delegitimize christianity". More strong words; He reports that this "machination will of course prove to be false...", more strong words..."

This would be my response to Dr. Yulish:

1) Calling Camerons film a "sham" could be considered legally slanderous, unless you have evidence backing up the insult. Tell me why it's a sham? Give me proof.

2) Your explanation to why you believe this theory will prove to be false, is because "...there were eyewitnesses to the crucifixion and to the resurrection..." Look, with all due respect to your faith, I hardly believe that this can be quantified using the scientific method.

3) You refer to the fact that this Tomb was revealed 26 years ago, inferring that this is proof the theory is a sham. Actually, no. I think you should watch the documentary to get a better understanding of what happened. The construction crew was ordered to stop construction, for a very brief period of time, to allow the Curators to come in and preserve the archeological find. It is a shame, that once the Ossuaries were removed, the tomb was sealed up and construction resumed. Whether or not this tomb was that of the family of the bibilical Jesus is besides the point: What a waste of historical proportions. It's quite sad that this apartment complex could not have been stayed off, and this entire burial-ground preserved for future generations.

4) Dr. Yulish states "...They claim to have the names on the coffins and they claim to have the bones and the DNA to prove their case..." Actually, yeah. That's right.

5) His final point: "...I am not going to waste my time trying to refute these specious claims but there are thousands of people with those names buried in Jerusalem and as to the DNA that is just plain stupid! Even prominent Jerusalem archaeologist, Amos Kloner, calls these claims "impossible and nonsense!

Well, guys...I won't waste your time responded to this, other than to say, read my prior post. I think I covered this argument in full detail. Kloner's temperament that these claims are "impossible and nonsense!" simply confirms the film-makers concerns about a double-standard in archeology, when it comes to these ossuaries. I'm going to look to statisticians to tell me whether or not a family lineage, with the inscriptions found within this tomb, could or could not be the Tomb of the biblical Jesus.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

We are not interested in watching arrant nonsense. When a thing is preposterous on its face, it merits no serious consideration. And it bloody well doesn't cause us to doubt our faith.

What is preposterous on its face about finding the tomb of Jesus? If he lived and died, one would expect that he had a tomb, since that was the fashion in his time. Which is more preposterous? The assertion, with zero evidence other than anecdotes several generations removed from the original source, that a man's dead body came back to life -- or that he died and was entombed? You most certainly ought to doubt your faith, if not due to this discovery then at least because your faith is probably a major crock of childish bullshit. "If you do not believe the same thing that we believe, God will feed you to monsters in hell, who will devour you again and again and again -- forever!" Yeah, that's some really high quality theology, allright. It blows my mind that people actually believe in this complete horseshit.

Every year at about the same time, the Philip Klass wannabes of religion issue another dollop of drivel in an attempt to discredit our faith. It never works and never will, but they get a B+ for effort and tenacity, even though they merit an F for content.

Speaking of the quality of content, have you read your bible lately? If I were put to write a new religion, I would undertake both a more excellent and admirable method; all the new testament is filthily written.

For instance, I have always considered, since my teenage years, that if Christ had instituted the Last Sacrament with more ceremonial reverence, it would have been better accepted by the populace; it would have been better administered in a marijuana pipe.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Chuck, dude you quoted aint been around for long time. Korman. I forgot all about him til this hehe.

 

[Rick Deckard]

They found Jesus' tomb? When does the theme park open?