The UFO Stimulus

[Soupie]

Umm... I quoted his argument.

To which you said was not his arguement.

/segmentation fault.

Hoffman says subjective perceptions are meaningless? On my understanding of his thesis, he would say subjective perceptions were laden with meaning.

 

[Soupie]

I think I asked this question a few posts ago but haven't seen a response to it yet:

What is the nature (if Hoffman believes that 'nature' is 'real') of the 'perceptual system' he refers to -- originating, it seems, in or near the quantum substrate -- that can develop "psychological features"? What does Hoffman mean by 'psychological features'?

Hoffman argues that consciousness is fundamental. Psychological features emerge from fundamental consciousness. Psychological features = phenomenal qualities.

Contrast this with the mainstream paradigm that non-conscious matter is fundamental and consciousness somehow emerges from non-conscious matter. (The Hard Problem.)

How does Hoffman's position differ from panpsychism? Panpsychism suggests that matter is innately conscious. Hoffman argues that the primal substrate is consciousness, but it is not matter (particles, positions, size, mass). Hoffman argues that classical reality—primary and secondary qualities—are features of a perceptual systems which evolved within this primal, conscious substrate.

 

[Randall]

@ufology, re the snoopy video, this looks like something I can learn from. Unfortunately my computer speakers are still packed in a box from my recent move. This is the first video I'll watch when I find them and hook them up.

I hope you are settling in nicely and that it soon feels like home

 

[victimized]

If a human being who is an organic presence, only exists as an organic presence, then how can it believe that it knows about what it does not exist "as".

If you ask a human being, how did they first gain concepts for nuclear conversion.....is to review the human journey into occult practices that became modern day sciences.

The Shaman was in a drugged trance brain state, the drug was a plant chemical and plants a different vibration of radiation interaction to the organic evolution.

He therefore placed his mind in contact with signals that his normal brain mind did not use.

This is the very reason why his application of science then attacked his natural life and destroyed him, as all historical evidence attests.....past occult practice/science and the destruction of life via human artifacts.

The condition of the atmosphere when studied as a human psyche condition, the only condition used by a natural organic life to review information for science.....gave the information to the mind.

The atmospheric photon interaction and use of machines that transmit both sound/voice imagery along with image of physical recordings allows the human to be advised that the Earth's atmosphere belongs to a condition of recording information and transmitting information.

The information for conversion was a recorded pre existing state of information that allowed by recorded status the information of conversion to be transmitted as pre-recorded information. As the information owns the recording, it exists as the information in the recorded state.

This review can be the only way that an organic life form could be given information, because it knows that its own consciousness and awareness only exists as the total form that it personally owns.....a human healthy life, healthy brain/mind state.

Organic life knows that it does not exist as consciousness in a pre-existing format, for it knows by self evidence that all pre-existing life forms and creation owns its own information, exists as its own information.

The argument about our organic presence is a statement of occult consideration (evolution) versus spiritual awareness...a spirit Creator.

The occultist information however states that it is aware that the burning created bodies of Suns...planets came from the same place where their own organic person came from. This is why the occultist/scientist reasons that the Creator is Satan, the burnt light and evolved cooled burnt light.

Yet an organic life does not exist where a photon is created or when a photon was created.

The only way that a human self could understand concepts of burnt light is to not be burnt light as a higher spiritual state.

As God is stated by the occultist to be the highest atmospheric condition....oxygen and water, why is it that a human self can understand these concepts also?

 

[Constance]

Hoffman argues that consciousness is fundamental. Psychological features emerge from fundamental consciousness. Psychological features = phenomenal qualities.

Sorry to take so long to respond to this post. I don't think your underscored statement of an equivalence of psychological 'features' and phenomenal 'qualia' is valid in any of the disciplines participating in consciousness studies.

Contrast this with the mainstream paradigm that non-conscious matter is fundamental and consciousness somehow emerges from non-conscious matter. (The Hard Problem.)

Those materialist ontological claims radically contrast themselves with their radical opposite number -- the view that Hoffman [and evidently now you as well] argue is valid, without evidentiary support. I think neither of these extreme propositions requires further comment except to say that both of them amount to speculative generalizations. The Hard Problem as posed by David Chalmers recognizes, as most of us do, that our species and all others known to us on earth have evolved from processes deep in physical nature, many of which science is only beginning to comprehend, and that no human discipline to date -- neither physics nor biology nor philosophy nor psychology nor 'computer science' -- can account for how experiential consciousness and mind have emerged in nature.

How does Hoffman's position differ from panpsychism? Panpsychism suggests that matter is innately conscious. Hoffman argues that the primal substrate is consciousness, but it is not matter (particles, positions, size, mass). Hoffman argues that classical reality—primary and secondary qualities—are features of a perceptual systems which evolved within this primal, conscious substrate.

Panpsychism is still a remotely promising hypothesis, though lacking evidentiary support. Nevertheless, the panpsychist conception is consistent with the recognition of the evolution of consciousness in natural being. By contrast, Hoffman's hypothesis concerning a conscious 'primal substrate' sorely needs evidentiary support (and I have not yet seen or heard about any such support). Further in need of evidentiary support is the extension of Hoffman's hypothesis to the denial of any access to objectively verifiable knowledge about the world on the part of beings possessing perceptual, phenomenal, consciousnesses and minds developed by and from conscious experience in the world.

I frankly don't see what's interesting about Hoffman's hypothesis, but I recognize that you do, given that it provides a way out of the mind-body problem that you found vexing throughout our discussions in the C&P thread. It seems to me that progress will be made toward resolving the mind-body problem (or at least making it tractable) with further developments in interdisciplinary consciousness studies.

 

[Constance]

I hope you are settling in nicely and that it soon feels like home

Thanks. It already feels like home, but it will be a month or two before I'm completely settled in. So many boxes yet to go through and sort out (including many I never unpacked the last time I moved -- eight years ago.

 

[Soupie]

Sorry to take so long to respond to this post. I don't think your underscored statement of an equivalence of psychological 'features' and phenomenal 'qualia' is valid in any of the disciplines participating in consciousness studies.

Sigh. We'll have to agree to disagree. You're making much ado about nothing.

In the fine article I linked to above, the following terms/phrases are used:

A good example in order to understand how percepts are psychological entities created by the brain rather than physical entities existing in the physical world is color. The science of color supports the view that phenomenal character is a property of the experience (Byrne, 2002, p. 9) rather than not (Tye, 2000), and its phenomenology can be nicely connected with known facts about the anatomy and physiology of the visual system. Metamers, for example, are stimuli with a different light composition that look exactly the same color, nicely demonstrating that color vision does not necessarily inform us about the precise properties of objects in the real world4.

A clear distinction between the physical properties of the real world on the one hand (e.g., wavelength reflectance), and the psychological properties of perceptual experiences on the other (e.g., color) is clearly made.

So we have the phrases physical and psychological entities and physical and psychological properties. And phenomenal character.

Clearly the author is making a distinction between physical and phenomenal qualities. I used the phrase psychological "features" which is a synonym of properties and qualities.

Psychological feature/quality/property as opposed to physical feature/quality/property.

 

[Burnt State]

Is provably -- and logically -- incorrect. Or at least mostly incorrect.

a) shapes are determined by mass-groupings of atoms. These shapes can be determined via multiple mechanisms -- mechanically, visually, via displacement, 3d topography, etc. All have mechanical analogues not requiring human perceptual interfaces, and can therefore be validated. They do validate. Therefore human shapes visual/mechanical systems work well for the most part. Which also makes rational sense, because if they didn't, we would be dead.

b) colors are a complex mechanism to explain, but they are explainable. Colors exist outside of our perception of them, with colors being labels for the wavelength of light being observed or measured. For example, it's quite simple to test if you see light wavelengths between 520nm and 570nm of light being perceived as 'green.' Not all individuals may label them as 'green' but you can demonstrate via materials science that an object will emit or reflect light of those wavelengths.

In short, it's a bunch of logical handwaving to get from 'we perceive things subjectively without 100% fidelity' to 'subjective perceptions are meaningless and infinitely malleable.'

it's not illogical. the ability to measure the shapes and colours of things is not in question. the question is, "what's it like?"

and what's it like for humans is highly dependent on an individual experience for no two experienced perceptual realities can ever be the same, just similar. so there will always be some degree of malleability, and yes infinite for infinite unique observers, be they human or butterfly.

but what's it like for humans is also a highly limited experience. we don't get to see, hear, touch, taste or feel the full spectrum of the reality of any known external stimuli. imagine if we could hear all frequencies...would we have ever learned to communicate with such a cacophony in our ears? we have evolved to have a very limited experience of reality so we can survive and thrive in it.

So what's it like for us is not what it is by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, our tools and measuring devices that augment reality show us more and more what else it looks like. We don't need to see the empty space between atoms but we know they are there (and even those theories are merely evolving representations of reality that we constantly shift). Everything is appearances or simple representations that are constructed through the medium that is a perceiving human beast to serve our existence best. So, we don't ever see all there is; ours is a simple representation of what's it like.

Consequently, the UFO, like all perceived reality is merely a placeholder, a symbol for some other thing. Perhaps our measuring devices will get better to help us know it more accurately for it appears to sit very much outside our perceptual capacities - hence descriptions that are most often described as high strange. It is something very strange to our organism. Perhaps it even helps to define our limits.

 

[victimized]

it's not illogical. the ability to measure the shapes and colours of things is not in question. the question is, "what's it like?"

and what's it like for humans is highly dependent on an individual experience for no two experienced perceptual realities can ever be the same, just similar. so there will always be some degree of malleability, and yes infinite for infinite unique observers, be they human or butterfly.

but what's it like for humans is also a highly limited experience. we don't get to see, hear, touch, taste or feel the full spectrum of the reality of any known external stimuli. imagine if we could hear all frequencies...would we have ever learned to communicate with such a cacophony in our ears? we have evolved to have a very limited experience of reality so we can survive and thrive in it.

So what's it like for us is not what it is by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, our tools and measuring devices that augment reality show us more and more what else it looks like. We don't need to see the empty space between atoms but we know they are there (and even those theories are merely evolving representations of reality that we constantly shift). Everything is appearances or simple representations that are constructed through the medium that is a perceiving human beast to serve our existence best. So, we don't ever see all there is; ours is a simple representation of what's it like.

Consequently, the UFO, like all perceived reality is merely a placeholder, a symbol for some other thing. Perhaps our measuring devices will get better to help us know it more accurately for it appears to sit very much outside our perceptual capacities - hence descriptions that are most often described as high strange. It is something very strange to our organism. Perhaps it even helps to define our limits.

The UFO condition can be reviewed only as an attack to Planet Earth's natural fusion. The humans who gained the experience of the attack were communicated to, and the communication system of Earth is a multi condition that already exists. We have a huge telecommunication system, and a large satellite relayed transmitted relay. The larger the satellite transmission has already exposed the bases using a larger amount of transmissions to have a greater amount of UFO caused phenomena witnessed.

The Earth's atmosphere owns the cold evolved gaseous state that it released from its own body. It is why the ancient occult review stated that God is the stone, creator of God the heavenly body and is the Creator state on Earth.

The occultist scientist owns his natural life, he lives and survives just like the rest of us.....yet he also owns another condition that we do not, the ability to build mechanism to cause changes to natural fused states. He called this condition occultism, what is hidden. Therefore his own mind state inherits the awareness to understand the precepts of change to fusion.

For a natural living being to know about occultism and document literature about other Planets as some form of interactive Earth attack....from out of space is only due to his life being lived. Science is a chosen and studied profession and some scientists different in mind concepts to others taught science. Therefore the condition of inheriting scientific awareness is given by the sexual procreation act....allowing difference of the cell nature to be inherited by irradiating conditions.

The modern day scientist therefore owns 2 states of awareness, what was taught and what is communicated by natural inheritance/personal awareness.

Earth is therefore supported by its atmospheric mass as a stone body, because its gases formed the atmosphere. The fusion of Planet Earth is a condition where its Heavenly body keeps it fused. This is due to the aware status that the gas of Earth belongs to its stone fusion.

Science and occult practices causes the Earth natural fusion to be attacked so that the natural fusion will change and convert. Therefore it can only convert by an act of attack by a larger presence. The larger presence is reviewed as the Planetary system...and for the condition of the Planets to change by UFO release states that the Planet's new alignment/communication would then attack Earth....for the UFO simply disappears in the transition/communication to Earth as its cold state heats.

The state of cold moving by propulsion (from the Sun's trajectory) is why the UFO heats on the way to Earth. This is the reason why the UFO loses its own natural gases. The natural gases on Earth are therefore witnessed to form another UFO condition...burning in the interactive signal (UFO lights), so Earth loses its protective Heavenly gas condition.

If we review the Universal condition, it is a condition of evolving planets cooling. Therefore Earth and the planetary system evolve naturally by cooling.

When the occultist converter thought about converting it was because his irradiated mind was conditioned to receiving communications from hot/cold changes to the Planets, in a condition of communication. Hence he became aware that the Planetary system had an interaction with Planet Earth and its fusion. Yet he never considered that this state allowed Planet Earth to remain fused, for he was not considering the nuclear dust to remain fused, he wanted it to convert for personal ownership of its power. This is the reason why an occultist/scientist's mind is different to the natural spiritual mind awareness.

The UFO condition is witnessed as a planetary and also Sun released condition, demonstrating that the Sun is activated into an attack also to cause O bodies to be released from all Planets. Therefore the communications to Planet Earth are constantly changing. The UFO condition is therefore an attack to all evolving and cooling Planets, which is why the signals communicating to Earth change and become hotter. As our ancient occult brother had caused the same planetary attack himself, the Planets had not cooled to the non aware status of a non occultist aware state or healed human mind.

The hotter the signal/communication from the Planetary released attack, the greater amount of fusion changes to Earth's stone body.

Hearing changed states is not a practice that any human should accept, for it was forced upon my life. Having my brain burnt/irradiated was an excruciating attack and since the attack I have heard different frequencies relating to the concepts of recording...such as computer relayed study programs. Therefore I became aware that our occult minded brother had been hearing these lower frequencies and gaining the image/information for converting of nuclear matter via a brain state that he himself would have been unaware of.