The Ummo Affair, don't classify it as a hoax too quickly

[dragon376]

There are some really weird things about the Ummo stuff.

Mostly because when I was a kid, from time we'd get these weird phone calls too.

Seriously.

Your parents were getting wierd phone call? what was the content of the conversation? Did they recieve any letters? Why do you associate these phone calls with Ummo stuff?

 

[Gil Bavel]

WOW, I came to this forum thinking that I could have an educated conversation with intelligent people on a subject that I think is still of interest and I get THAT?

Dragon:

This is what eventually happens when a good thing gets too big. We had open and interesting discussion here for a good long time, and then suddenly, everyone's a big shot and can't be bothered to go over a case that's been deemed a hoax by... who? The general consensus? Well, I'm not part of any club--so I'll talk to you about it.

I ran across some of the Ummo info while I was browsing last year. I found the specific information that I read, especially the bits about the sigil on the bottom of the ships, quite interesting.

I think that the UFO community has "advanced" past "contactee" cases and that some of the earlier (say, 1960s) cases, and that they'd rather talk about Dan Burisch or whoever the latest geek of the week is that's obviously a fake.

They can't be bothered to tear themselves away from laughing their asses off about somebody's nutty post on ATS to involve themselves in a stimulating past case, especially if the "in crowd" has decided that it's no longer cool, regardless of the international implications.

And even if it is a hoax, being patently dismissive of it rather than being at least polite and showing your work is the sign of a lazy mind. Don't get hung up about it. You did your best. We can always set up a secondary board (not on this server) not related to the Paracast for those of us that are interested in pursuing cases that the groupthink mind has rubber-stamped "case closed".

I prefer smaller groups, anyway. When you put a lot of work into a post, and it's obviously interesting to you, I think it's childish and dismissive for just about anybody to reply to it--but just barely. They might as well save their breath. Or just tell you to go jump in the lake, instead.

I don't remember where I happened across the Ummo info I browsed into--it was some kind of a year-by-year UFO case study on the web linking observations with multiple witnesses. It might have been done by Antonio Huneeus, I don't remember. I met him at a conference once, and it seems like the sort of thing he'd contribute to, especially since many of the cases were Central or South American.

Just remember that opening a mind once it's firmly slammed shut is a lot harder than closing one that's been open long enough to consider many of the possibilities. With a phenomenon as multi-faceted as the UFO experience, I think it's kind of silly to close the door on anything.

Especially with ongoing fakes, and suspicious people that have made models of the craft they say they've photographed (I'm thinking Ed Walters here, NOT EBM)... and folks that make deathbed confessions, both ways... anyone that's decided to close the book on any part of the UFO "problem" is just... well, close-minded. You can have a degree of belief, a gray basket, as Stanton Friedman puts it, or just keep an open mind. This doesn't prevent you from taking a stance or finding one aspect or group of cases interesting.

But a closed mind is a sign of someone that's no longer willing to entertain even a possibility of truth. Let's face it, none of us on this board were there for any of the UMMO experiences, so we can't possibly know for certain, either way. All we can do is voice opinion.

I do hope you'll keep voicing yours.
I'm listening.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

It isn't being lazy knowing that the OP is quite capable to research this case on his/her own Gil. He/she doesn't need me to hold his/her hand.

Hell, know one even bothered to post in this thread which was getting buried til I bumped it.

 

[Gareth]

have i compared this to the Meier case yet this week?

consider this that

 

[Aaron LeClair]

have i compared this to the Meier case yet this week?

consider this that

I almost did the same lol.

 

[dragon376]

GSB, Aaron. Thank you so much for bumping this tread back to the top. Now, let me know when you have something interesting to say, ok?

 

[dragon376]

Gilbavel, thank you for your post. You know a forum is a bit like a village, and every village have their idiots. They are there to entertain people. Without them, this post would not have grown to 3 pages...
Ultimately, there hasn't been any censorship and for that I thanks the moderators of this forum.
Most of what has been written on the Ummo case is in french or spanish, so english speaking people don't have access to the core information of this case.
For every person that thinks I am the idiots' village, there are at least 10 people that didn't make up their mind and curious about this case. I am writting for those that didn't make up their mind yet. The others have little importance to me. They can write whatever they want.

 

[dragon376]

A witness testimony is only as reliable as the witness himself. In the case of the Ummites documents, there has been many testimony from the Spanish group in the earlier years and a large portion of the Ummites documents can be found at Site ummo-sciences - Toutes les lettres ummites connues -accueil . Some have been tranlated in english, but most have only been translated in French. The most recent witness is Jean Pierre Petit who is the former research director at the CNRS CNRS (Centre National de Recherche Scientifique - National Center of Scientific Research). He is by no mean some drunken wierdo. Even after publishing many books on UFOs and the Ummo case, he was able to keep credibility in the Scientific world. For some 25 years, most of his research was inspired by the scientific content of the Ummo letters. One of his research area is the MHD (Magneto Hydro Dynamic). Most of the information I post come from JP Petit's books.
With MHD, one uses magnetic force (Laplace) to push the water (or the air) creating a void which will suck the craft in the desired direction. JP Petit wrote a comic book explaining how this works. He wrote this Comic book so that even people in politics could understand it:
The Silence Barrier
This technology is been around for decades now and has been proven to work on a small scale in water.
Although there are no declassified submarine or aircrafts using this technology, Jean Pierre Petit believes otherwise. In a book (ovnis et armes secretes americaines) explains how he got information on the russian project Ajax and the american project Aurora from people that worked on it at a conference on MHD in England.
All this started when he saw a condensation trail from an probable aircraft that crossed the sky in seconds. As you know an aircraft will take a couple of minutes to go across the sky, only a hypersonic craft going to MACH 12 could cross the sky in seconds, but going to MACH 12 is impossible because the air resistance would heat up and burn down the craft. Most of the fuel in supersonic aircraft is used to beat the air resistance. It would require so much fuel to push a craft to Mach 12, it seems impossible. The space shuttle in reentry goes faster than Mach 12 but only for a limited time. It doesn't burn in flames because of the black tiles that protects the craft.
The craft he saw could have been Aurora. according to JP Petit, Aurora uses a normal propulsion system, but uses MHD to slow down the air that goes in the intake without heating it up. It also uses MHD push the air around the craft so that the craft doesn't heat up like the space shuttle.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

GSB, Aaron. Thank you so much for bumping this tread back to the top. Now, let me know when you have something interesting to say, ok?

You're welcome.

Sorry, I didn't know my posts needed your approval.

Next Jan 13th I plan on saying something interesting in a Bigfoot thread. TIl then, I'll try to only agree with you in posts.

 

[dragon376]

Jean Pollion studied the language that can be found throughout the Ummite documents.
They are phonetically written using our letters look like: DIIU YAA or IGIAAYUYISAA
Although this words look like they have been generated assembling random letters, Jean Pollion found logic in how they have been created. Apparently, each "sound" are building blocks with meaning, assembling the different sound creates a new meaning.

Although Jean Pollion claims that it could not have been created by humans, I do not have an opinion on it yet, since I haven't read his book where he explain his study. One thing obvious though, whoever wrote those letter spent the time creating a language. But that has been done before, look at star trek... they even have dictionnaries for the language they created.

Here is some info on Jean Pollion and his book. The following pages is in french translated by google... some of the translation may sound odd in english
Site UMMO-SCIENCES - LIVRES - Jean Pollion
UMMO: De vrais extraterrestres!
L'UMMITE: non, ce n'est plus du chinois !

 

[dragon376]

Here is a extract from Jean Pollion's book that can be found in the last link provided in the previous post. L'UMMITE: non, ce n'est plus du chinois !
Since I noticed some people don't even read the couple of lines I write, I am pretty sure some people wouldn't even click on the link, so I am copying one specific part that shows why we shouldn't dismiss the Ummite case too quickly:
Again, this has been translated with google, so some sentence might be odd:

"The allusion deeply motivated and justified largely the work of Russell denotes among the authors of documents of interest to the problems, not language, but the basic structure of language, semantics.
This work has been completely assimilated, most probably in English, since no translation was available. Their tight, difficult and abstract did not prevent the conclusion of the "necessary revision" of our formulation. At this level of reflection and taking into account the difficulty of the work of Russell, I consider the probability of finding in our people, man or team capable of 1 per 10,000, which in the scale of France , Gives a population of potential perpetrators of around 6,000 people.
Reach is one thing. Deciding to act, and do, is another.
Here I put the probability of finding the man of decision and action to 1 to 10.
Our authors have subsequently undertaken and completed the construction of a new language, totally beyond our usual references, to meet the necessary revision of language. "
I think to be generous in allocating a probability of 1 in 10,000 to the successful creation capacity of the language. (representing 6,000 people supposed to scale capable of France!) In reality, we certainly agree that nobody so far has made the slightest attempt known for creating this logic semantics. And it is "successful" the first time! [Let us recall for the record that Russell himself with Whitehead, single pair, tried its creation in the theory of types, limiting the subject in mathematical language. And the result has not achieved its ambitions.]
The probability of finding the man on Earth capable of carrying out the project of Ummites language can amount to
- Conclusion revision of semantics 10 -4
- Decision to pass the measure 10-1
- Establishment of original language 10-4
an overall likelihood of 10-9 or one in a billion.
As a language does not exist as a vehicle of expression without having objects or ideas to describe the authors have thus found an obligation to create from scratch also Ummites civilization. So they could justify language.
It is here that the study is exciting. Create a description of a civilization is without doubt the scope of (almost) any science fiction author, provided that this description is general and does not fall too many details. We saw Jules Verne, Aldous Huxley, Asimov, and many others. Imagine that in France there are roughly 600 French authors can, which I believe is widely generous, this represents 600 on 60,000,000, or 1 per 100,000, or 10-5
The description of civilization in Ummites meets all these criteria, if one does not take into account the records "techniques" that are part of documents. I remember 4, starting with the design of the universe with IBOZOO UU. This part, although superficially addressed, is already a strong solid basis for reflection, with the ambition to present a theory unit (consistent with the speech). Excuse little! Any explanations on the technology of everyday life there rattachent beautifully and very homogeneous. Our knowledge are resituées.
Then there is the extraordinary creativity of the naves of intragalactiques description, with the consistency of the technical language.
There are still technical description, very sharp, altimeter-accelerometer thiocyanate mercury.
Finally, there Description cameras or recorders of image lenses gas, which is also rich in technical details very interesting.
For having the ability to develop all this technological creation and have inserted in a speech, whose initial desire was, remember, to build a new semantics, I attribute the likelihood again to 1 on the 100,000 which is very generous, because it corresponds to 600 people throughout France, is still 10-5
By neglecting all other aspects, particularly the Metaphysics (!), Religion and rationale tetravalent with their integration into any Ummites thought, I find a comprehensive probability under the civilization of 10-5 x 10-5 = 10 -10
By incorporating all items examined, I can likely result is 10-9 x 10-10 = 1O-19. That is, all represented by:
Understanding controlled semantic limits of our language
Designing a new language built around a semantic responding to the needs formulated,
Its real
The correlative of the company that justifies this language,
With many technological details are provided, in a wonderful linguistic consistency in intimate details,
And regardless of original creations in the field of metaphysics, logic and religion described,
has a chance in ten billion billion have been made by one or more men.
We are 6 billion people on our planet, or 6.l0, we see that if a man on Earth could be capable, it would have 10-10 chance to complete his project. Either one in 10 billion. Needless to say no.
That is why I can say, following that reasoning, that the origin of Earth this whole matter is infinitely improbable and at the "Statistical impossible."
And yet, I did not take into account the duration of receipt of the documents, close to 30 years.
I also noted contradictions psychological.
It does not create a language to leave it in a drawer, especially if its new architecture was designed to address shortcomings of our language systems. Otherwise there is a contradiction on the first level of reasoning, between objective and means implemented.
So we began its distribution.
The realization of this new language and her deep harmony with the civilization described are the result of an enormous creative work and generously fruitful, including the unitary theory. And this work will be presented for consecration and receive recognition, a tiny sample of 34 Spanish people, level honest way, without more, some of which appear to be "enlightened" notorious. Above all, they explain that if they communicate these findings to other people, denying them the following information! As a method of dissemination, it seems to me that there are more suitable! The retention has been generally very effective.
I see therefore a first contradiction to the initial assumption of human source and earth, built on the premise of "remark Russell."
Assuming the will restrict the quantity target population, on behalf of the test, why not propose the use of this language just to try it? Why describe it so hidden that it will be over 30 years for a man able to understand a game? This is a very serious contradiction with the necessary initial assumption will renovation of language. She completely discredited.
If the will of the documents was to conduct a psychological study, why have tired to read Russel and to create a language that overlap perfectly presented in civilization, but the characteristics of consistency and innovation have completely escaped the target (rather small for a study!) of the 34 contacted? Any gibberish could have been the case. Why a true language, ideally meet the objections of Bertrand Russell in a dream? What contribution [...] expect?. "

 

[dragon376]

I should make a quick note on my previous post.
All Jean Pollion is doing, it is assigning probability to the likelihood that someone would be able to create such a complex hoax. I don't necessarily share his conclusion that those documents can only come from ET. This is largely underestimating the capacity of a group of motivated humans to come up with such a plan.
But anyone believing that a human alone could build such a coherent affair (say Jose Luis Jordan Pena) has a serious mental illness clouding his judgment.
What Jean Pollion proves with his research is that if those documents are not ET's creation, only a team of very motivated people composed of a story writer, a linguist, and a couple of scientist, with large resources could have created the Ummites documents.
Hence the title of this thread: "The Ummo Affair, don't classify it as a hoax too quickly"
cause it hasn't been resolved just yet.

 

[dragon376]

Fox News talks about Aurora:
Dailymotion - NASA - AVION HYPERSONIQUE AURORA?, a video from al-fred. l'avion, hypersonique, nasa, aurora, htv3x

No mention of MHD, but without "sucking" the air in front of the craft, it is impossible to reach mach 6 to 10 as claimed in the this video.
In other words, US official are starting to come out of the box with their new technology.
Think about it, if this plane didn't already exist, they wouldn't talk about it... The black bird existed for years before the officially talked about it.

 

[Rocketsauce]

I remember reading about this case in Jaque Vallee's book 'Revelations' and it seemed pretty bogus, although I honestly can't remember most of the details other than it didn't seem to hold up under scrutiny. I think many of us have a tendancy to forget the details of cases we think might be fake over time, there is only so much UFO stuff I can remember.

I should add, this book (Revelations) points out a couple of cases where UFO events are 'real' events for sure, but they also appear staged "real" events.

Almost seem like psych opps experiments to see how people would react to a real event. Perhaps some top secret attempts to see if UFO events can be used to sway public opinion or manufacture cultural 'movements'.

In these instances that he points out, the UFO events were real, but were likely manufactured by humans.

I think staging UFO events could be effective for lots of things. Discrediting politicians (Kucinich ), hiding military activities in certain countries like Iran where they don't want to be discovered, studying the effects the real phenomena could potentially have on the public (public freak out??), it could even be used for viral marketing of anything, or to test our own national security to see if we can detect such things or even to see if some random dude who claims to have had an experience could potentially gain a following that could have political or cultural ramifications that would challenge the status quo/stability of a society....

 

[dragon376]

Here is some constructive feedback, Thank you Rocket Sauce.
You are making some good points which I have mentioned very early in this thread. I could see the US government having the mean and the motives to do something like that.

 

[Tommy Allison]

We got some weird calls back in the 1970's when I was a little kid. I remember talking to someone on the phone for a bit who basically asked me a bunch of questions. The voice was monotone, and never seemed to vary at all in tone, nor did it have a grasp of punctuation word followed word until I hung up.

My father recalled some of this last year when we were discussing some calls he was getting. It was very strange.

 

[andersonglk]

I have been interested in the UMMO affair for years. Honestly, I think it retains a lot of what keeps the Meier camp running. Specifically, the idea that if it was a hoax, how did they do it? To me, it's fun to think about. I know people like me have been bagged by David on the show, but it's who I am. Although I am not as knowledgeable about the subject, am I not entitled to an opinion? Although I would love to say leave it to the experts, I have grown less and less trusting of the experts over the years. Anyways, there is a lot of info about UMMO on this DVD set

http://www.bestbuy.com

Yeah yeah yeah, armchair research and all that. But if there are researchers giving good information, why should I have to cover the same ground?

Unfortunately I can't find the DVD here and a google search isn't helping. There is a man that breaks down the UMMO case from beginning to end, and I found his information and conclusions to be the same that I would have drawn given the same information.

From the little I know about the case, it seems that although it is considered a hoax, there are still intriguing questions that have never been answered.

 

[dragon376]

There is 1 huge difference between the Meier case and the Ummo case.
Nobody ever wrote a scientific paper based on the information given by Meier.
Most of JP Petit research was based of the information found in the Ummo letter. That is what makes the Ummo case so much more compeling than Meier.

 

[Gil Bavel]

We got some weird calls back in the 1970's when I was a little kid. I remember talking to someone on the phone for a bit who basically asked me a bunch of questions. The voice was monotone, and never seemed to vary at all in tone, nor did it have a grasp of punctuation word followed word until I hung up.

My father recalled some of this last year when we were discussing some calls he was getting. It was very strange.

Tommy, I'd like to hear some more about these calls, if you can remember, or if you can ask your dad about what he recalls.

These to me, are some of the most fascinating and creepy elements of the UFO/occupants mystery.

Karla Turner, Leah Haley and Katharina Wilson have all reported phone voices like this, and having known Karla (and Leah still), they play into the abduction phenomenon fairly heavily. I'm not saying you're an abductee, but as it's one of the elements I find the most interesting, I'd like to hear more--anything at all you can remember.

In fact, I think this aspect of UFO/abduction phenomena is so interesting, it could be the main element of a film... These days, it would be a lot easier to find the electronics to perform these kinds of tricks, but not in the 70s. You'd have to be good friends with Brian Eno or Peter Frampton to pull it off...