There will be no Disclosure

[5hownewsday]

Why do I say that? Because even if it came we won't believe it, so we will be no further ahead than we are now. Short of someone dragging an Alien body out of a Top Secret facility or hi-jacking a reverse engineered saucer and taking the CNN crew out for a joyride... NOTHING any says will be believed. And even those to scenarios would be questioned.

ATS is the haven for way out there beliefs... so I am going to pose a few questions in a minute. But first a couple points.

Bob Lazar came out and told us about what he did at S4... some believe, some undecided, some say he is a fraud and others say if he did work there he was a janitor or some low level employee....

Now we all here at ATS know Area 51 exists and they do some really top secret stuff out there... and many believe there is something to do with Aliens or Flying Saucers... but when someone does come out and say something, well it's NEVER good enough.

The same thing really applies for every and all whistle blowers or insiders... so we are all here expecting disclosure, but when it comes we don't believe.

Also remember that while some claim to have held top positions and had military careers, the lowly janitor is an invisible person and sees everything, and the cook, as any NAVY person will tell you knows everything

So here are the questions...

1) Which insider, whistle blower or 'ufologist' do YOU believe is telling the truth.

2) is that person telling you all truth, or has a good story mixed with added 'stuff' to make them look good

3) WHY do you believe his story over someone else?

4) Short of an Alien spacecraft landing in Times Square or other such place, what would it take for you to be convinced that someone is telling the truth?

Maybe we could collect a list of names with a yay/nay option and tally those and see who has the most credibility

 

[Angel of Ioren]

1) There are some liars, but most "ufologists" are telling you what they think is correct. They can be wrong, but they aren't lying. Example: Ted Phillps. I don't think he's right about what he thinks is going on at Marley Woods, but I don't think he's lying.

2) See number 1

3) I don't "believe" anyone, I just like to listen to the various opinions. Mine is if something is a UFO, it's unidentified. Attempts to identify it are basically guesses. In no way do I think that any UFO is Extraterrestrial or a non-human driven vehicle.

4) Physical proof or a really good video or photograph.

 

[tyder001]

In no way do I think that any UFO is Extraterrestrial or a non-human driven vehicle.


I mostly agree personally except that it could be a military drone which is not actually human driven. Although, I did see something once that I can't idenify as having been military or anything else man made. To be honest I just didn't belive my own eyes that night. Still don't.

However, people such as Karla Turner and others do make my wonder if maybe we really are dealing with a spirutal reality or some kind of "other" intelligence. But, again I'd have to see it to belieive it. Even then I might doubt it.

 

[Kandinsky]

Why do I say that? Because even if it came we won't believe it, so we will be no further ahead than we are now. Short of someone dragging an Alien body out of a Top Secret facility or hi-jacking a reverse engineered saucer and taking the CNN crew out for a joyride... NOTHING any says will be believed. And even those to scenarios would be questioned.

Hiya 5hownewZday, you ask some good questionz.

'Disclosure' is like the 'rapture' for elements of the UFO/aliens crowd. It somehow promises transcendence for them. There seems to be this perception that as soon as the US Government confesses that UFOs are aliens, the aliens will overcome their party shyness and come down spreading world peace and an end to nuclear technology. Yea, verily all the dolphins will celebrate and humans of all colours and creeds shall sit down together and breaketh of the bread.

As for the questions; ufologists are human and as fallible as the rest of us. We each have our favourites or those we attribute more credibility to. At the same time, they are only as accurate as the information they are given or uncover and interpret that information just like we all do...personally and with biases.

The good guys tell the truth to the best of their ability and are honest when admitting what they don't know.

'Disclosure' for me is a meaningless concept. If and when beings or technology from elsewhere decide to make themselves known...we'll know all about it and the 'White House lawn' scenario can probably go screw itself. From one ATSer to another...we both know that some people will be panicking, some will deny it and others will come up with 'God-only-knows' explanations.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

It's pretty difficult to disclose anything when you have nothing to disclose.

 

[Trajanus]

Why do I say that? Because even if it came we won't believe it, so we will be no further ahead than we are now. Short of someone dragging an Alien body out of a Top Secret facility or hi-jacking a reverse engineered saucer and taking the CNN crew out for a joyride... NOTHING any says will be believed. And even those to scenarios would be questioned.

ATS is the haven for way out there beliefs... so I am going to pose a few questions in a minute. But first a couple points.

Bob Lazar came out and told us about what he did at S4... some believe, some undecided, some say he is a fraud and others say if he did work there he was a janitor or some low level employee....

Now we all here at ATS know Area 51 exists and they do some really top secret stuff out there... and many believe there is something to do with Aliens or Flying Saucers... but when someone does come out and say something, well it's NEVER good enough.

The same thing really applies for every and all whistle blowers or insiders... so we are all here expecting disclosure, but when it comes we don't believe.

Disclosure presupposes the government has indisputable physical proof to disclose. That's the key missing ingredient in all "whistleblower" stories thus far. I believe the government has had proof since Roswell but it remains under wraps. As long as it stays that way, the impact of "whistleblowers" is limited.

1) Which insider, whistle blower or 'ufologist' do YOU believe is telling the truth.

I think Marcel sr told the truth and so did Randle.

2) is that person telling you all truth, or has a good story mixed with added 'stuff' to make them look good

3) WHY do you believe his story over someone else?

Even Lance admitted that Randle doesn't make things up.

4) Short of an Alien spacecraft landing in Times Square or other such place, what would it take for you to be convinced that someone is telling the truth?

If there's corroborating evidence pertaining to rank, whereabouts etc.

 

[Kandinsky]

Even Lance admitted that Randle doesn't make things up.

Have you got a source for this? lol

 

[Trajanus]

Have you got a source for this? lol

It was on his blog some time ago. Of course you could ask lance directly.

 

[Ezechiel]

You should read Leslie Kean's book

Here's my personal favorites:

1) Which insider, whistle blower or 'ufologist' do YOU believe is telling the truth.

Jesse Marcel Sr and Jr

2) is that person telling you all truth, or has a good story mixed with added 'stuff' to make them look good

Highly credible, military, good solid family. To live in a small town and hold on to wild stories requires awesome courage.
Jesse Marcel Jr was called back in Iraq at age 65 to fly a chopper.

3) WHY do you believe his story over someone else?

Consistent over time. Courage facing ridicule, willing to sacrifice lifetime achievements for telling account.

4) Short of an Alien spacecraft landing in Times Square or other such place, what would it take for you to be convinced that someone is telling the truth?

Abnormal persistence and motivation. David vs Golliath.
The deep conviction that if enough people believe they are telling the truth.... it might trigger an investigation.

Maybe we could collect a list of names with a yay/nay option and tally those and see who has the most credibility

Regardless of the names... there is a phenomenon that requires investigation (Leslie Kean).
As we speak, entire nations are getting on the bandwagon.

 

[PararealitySaint]

In no way do I think that any UFO is Extraterrestrial or a non-human driven vehicle.


I mostly agree personally except that it could be a military drone which is not actually human driven. Although, I did see something once that I can't idenify as having been military or anything else man made. To be honest I just didn't belive my own eyes that night. Still don't.

However, people such as Karla Turner and others do make my wonder if maybe we really are dealing with a spirutal reality or some kind of "other" intelligence. But, again I'd have to see it to belieive it. Even then I might doubt it.

I am very glad to see that there are those of us out there that might see this phenomenon in a different light. Perhaps not as some special visitation by extraterrestrial beings, but quite possibly by forces perhaps "inter-dimensional" and not something we can easily understand. In my humble opinion and thus originating from a "demonological" background, I classify this as demonic entities doing what they have always done best.

I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't enjoy being anally probed or have metal stuck up my nose. I surely wouldn't enjoy being gutted and having all my blood drained from my body either.

Other than the obvious nut cases who have "direct communication" with beings from Mars and Zeta Reticuli", there hasn't been a single case in which I've heard a "victim" speak out about how much fun it is to be abducted out of bed, taken without their will into a craft, and then used as a guinea pig for no purpose of their own. I have heard how they are told "everything will be OK" only to be scared to heck and back, and then watched closely as if this spent energy is being sucked out of their very souls, likened to some lifeblood draining, obviously vampiric in nature.

Malevolent Aliens.....Fallen Angels
Benevolent Aliens....The Lord's Angels
Ancient Aliens...........Pagan Fallen Angels acting as Gods
Armageddon.............Foretold as the great conflict between The fallen ones and those of the light.

That's how I see it and I know many people disagree with me on both this forum and other places. But as I mentioned earlier, and will mention once again, since we have no "proof" either way, why is it so bad to believe in those words which have been passed down for thousands of years which to this very day haven't been proven right, or dare I say it.... wrong. Is it not romantic enough...our we human's too full of ourselves to believe that it would mean we aren't in control of our destinies and would rather believe that some other outside intelligent force can better us, that is instead of a Redeeming Father who died for our sins?

Ok, enough with the Proselytizing. I am always open to ALL opinions and will not disfavor or completely pan those who feel differently, but do feel as though this "theory" which I call reality, should also have its fair time on this and any other forum out there today.

Please do not hold that against me.

Lastly, I am a witness to the phenomenon as far as what is classified as a "close encounter of the first kind." I could not explain what it was then, and I cannot explain what it is today. I can say this for one thing though, I was scared out of my mind and do not think that "Actively" involved intelligent "extra-terrestrial" manifestations would want to imbibe us with a fearful scenario or setting.

Why?

Why instead wouldn't they look to communicate and to help us in a way in which we could grow and manifest an emulation of sorts to thus?

Wouldn't they be intelligent enough by now after observing us for all these years to be able to make us at least a little comfortable while prodding and performing surgery on us?

Answer: Because they suppress the memories....Why? Because they are doing us a favor?

Why the secrecy?

Perhaps because they are malevolent extra-terrestrial or inter-dimensional beings....

Hmmmm....S.S.D.D.

 

[Ezechiel]

I am very glad to see that there are those of us out there that might see this phenomenon in a different light. Perhaps not as some special visitation by extraterrestrial beings, but quite possibly by forces perhaps "inter-dimensional" and not something we can easily understand. In my humble opinion and thus originating from a "demonological" background, I classify this as demonic entities doing what they have always done best.

The validity of a 'demonological' background is a 'no-brainer' if you are convinced that the dynamics of a religious framework (as defined by christians for example..) are real forces.

From a mainstream scientific point of view, arguing against you is utterly futile and is in effect a direct insult to you and your personal beliefs.

Ultimately, all of this may simply be question of perspective. What you currently define as demonological may be the same judgment that the remaining primitive tribes of this planet apply to our current civilization

 

[PararealitySaint]

The validity of a 'demonological' background is a 'no-brainer' if you are convinced that the dynamics of a religious framework (as defined by christians for example..) are real forces.

From a mainstream scientific point of view, arguing against you is utterly futile and is in effect a direct insult to you and your personal beliefs.

Ultimately, all of this may simply be question of perspective. What you currently define as demonological may be the same judgment that the remaining primitive tribes of this planet apply to our current civilization

Thank you for respecting my opinion. The conclusion you came to here can be just as easily utilized to those of any varying opinion to my own, simply because there is no proof either way.

Again, my thanks.

 

[Ezechiel]

Scientific framework offers methods which constantly tests reality in an evolutionary spiral where the foundations are solidified and sometimes replaced as we go along. Sometimes discoveries in the scientific framework forces changes in some religious frameworks. I.e. The earth is no longer the center of creation; we orbit around the sun, the sun around a galaxy.... etc J


A religious framework is usually triggered by the ideas of a sect or an illuminated individual at a specific time. If it is relatively good at addressing social issues and societies thrive on its ideas, it grows into a full blown religion and this is formalized by events such as the council of Nicaee.


One framework is good with societal issues where the other is good at decoding reality and its physical infrastructure. Mixing the 2 has always been problematic.


One good hit: modern science has yet had to adjust its conclusions due to religious beliefs and some religions are constantly struggling with scientific data (thus the apologists)

God was behind Big Bang, universe no accidentope
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE7052OC20110106
Stephen Hawkings vs the Pope ? J

 

[PararealitySaint]

Scientific framework offers methods which constantly tests reality in an evolutionary spiral where the foundations are solidified and sometimes replaced as we go along.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> I think the subject deserves an explanation above and beyond “Scientific” classification for designation purposes only. When we apply a supposed “constant” which as you say ad infinitum will vary based on a gradually evolving or fact based progression, we normally find ourselves within a living invariable. Considering the constant is “alive” as we perceive and having no basis for its organic origination, a hypothesis which includes "faith" is a natural given.

In this case we are dealing with that very same origination….whether the variables such as alien or angel achieve the end result is irrelevant as we have no idea of that origin.

If then, religion for the sake of an answer is in this case acceptable as a preclusion, no matter how “scientific” the content, until an answer is in fact presented within the classification (when and if having no variants), I’ll stick to my faith instead of an ever changing scientific contrivance any day.

 

[Trajanus]

In my humble opinion and thus originating from a "[/SIZE][/FONT]demonological" background, I classify this as demonic entities doing what they have always done best.

I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't enjoy being anally probed or have metal stuck up my nose. I surely wouldn't enjoy being gutted and having all my blood drained from my body either.

To my knowledge the latter has seldom happened to humans.

Other than the obvious nut cases who have "direct communication" with beings from Mars and Zeta Reticuli",

I'm suspicious of most contactees but face it, the phenomenon has many, many sides to it. We shouldn't automatically dismiss contactee reports. And while Mars makes no sense as the ETs's original home, Zeta Reticuli seems at least possible. IIRC it's Population II--older than our solar system.

there hasn't been a single case in which I've heard a "victim" speak out about how much fun it is to be abducted out of bed, taken without their will into a craft, and then used as a guinea pig for no purpose of their own. I have heard how they are told "everything will be OK" only to be scared to heck and back, and then watched closely as if this spent energy is being sucked out of their very souls, likened to some lifeblood draining, obviously vampiric in nature.

A few aliens are reportedly benevolent. As a rule I think they're dangerous and scheming but still ETs not supernatural "demons."

Malevolent Aliens.....Fallen Angels
Benevolent Aliens....The Lord's Angels
Ancient Aliens...........Pagan Fallen Angels acting as Gods
Armageddon.............Foretold as the great conflict between The fallen ones and those of the light.

Frankly, anyone who believes that is in no position to call anyone else a "nutcase."

But as I mentioned earlier, and will mention once again, since we have no "proof" either way, why is it so bad to believe in those words which have been passed down for thousands of years which to this very day haven't been proven right, or dare I say it.... wrong.

See Ehrman's books on the bible. He makes short work of it.

Is it not romantic enough...our we human's too full of ourselves to believe that it would mean we aren't in control of our destinies and would rather believe that some other outside intelligent force can better us,

I don't believe that's their purpose.

that is instead of a Redeeming Father who died for our sins?

Strange, I thought the holy joes think the "son" "died for our sins."

Lastly, I am a witness to the phenomenon as far as what is classified as a "close encounter of the first kind." I could not explain what it was then, and I cannot explain what it is today. I can say this for one thing though, I was scared out of my mind and do not think that "Actively" involved intelligent "extra-terrestrial" manifestations would want to imbibe us with a fearful scenario or setting.

Look at how advanced cultures behaved toward primitive ones on earth.

Why instead wouldn't they look to communicate and to help us in a way in which we could grow and manifest an emulation of sorts to thus?

Wouldn't they be intelligent enough by now after observing us for all these years to be able to make us at least a little comfortable while prodding and performing surgery on us?

Answer: Because they suppress the memories....Why? Because they are doing us a favor?

Why the secrecy?

Perhaps because they are malevolent extra-terrestrial or inter-dimensional beings....

I suspect they're scheming to get our planet for themselves.

 

[PararealitySaint]

Frankly, anyone who believes that is in no position to call anyone else a "nutcase."

True, they might not like Nuts but instead favor Chocolate...."Life is like a box of Chocolates"....

My mistake.


---------- Post added at 05:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

See Ehrman's books on the bible. He makes short work of it.

I take it here you are referring to Bart. D. Ehrman....

Sounds like a winner...The first thing I found while looking into this writer was an excerpt on a review of the following:

"Any Adventist young person, theology student or serious bible scholar who examines the development and transmission of the biblical canon will be susceptible to the same agnostic conclusions as Ehrman unless they can be inoculated with a hermeneutic that allows for prophets to make mistakes, to grow in their understanding, and to contradict other prophets.

It is said that if one asks the wrong question, one will inevitable get the wrong answer. In Erhman’s case, he went looking for key texts or key passages in the Bible that would answer the question, “Why does God allow suffering?” He wanted a definitive answer, a thus saith the Lord. Not only was he unable to find a satisfactory answer in the Scriptures, he found instead a disturbing picture of an angry punitive God who inflicts pain and suffering on people either directly or via his agents. Adding to his angst at losing an infallible scripture, he is now faced with the distinct possibility that the God of the Bible might be unworthy of worship.

So why does Erhman continue to write? Partly as a catharsis. He had the bejesus scared out of him for years by the doctrine of a literal eternally-burning hell. For him, hell was a physical reality to be avoided at all costs. Being able to jettison his belief in hell fire and his notion of a god who would inflict such torments on human beings has given him the impetus to share his enlightenment and thus save others from the delusions that kept him in fear.

Wistfully, Erhman admits that in his search for the answer to suffering he did find some solutions that held appeal for him–views that he would like to believe. However, his fundamentalist view of Scripture prohibits his endorsement. He seems stuck with a univocal view of Scripture which maintains the ultimate sovereignty of God and saddled with an atonement model previously understood by him to be reality in verity. The questions he asks and his reluctance to accept alternative understandings reveal his inability to shake off these two powerful models.

Rabbi Kushner’s conclusion that God is not all powerful, Erhman confesses, has merit but must be rejected because the very idea that there are some things that God cannot do does not square with his understanding of what the Bible teaches. According to Ehrman, the Bible teaches that God is all powerful. A god who limits his power is not the Biblical God."

Sorry, you'll have to do better than this....

 

[Elendil]

I suspect they're scheming to get our planet for themselves.

Well, if that is the case - don't you think they could then move in as of right now? I mean, if an advanced species is behind all this and wants the planet - with such superb technology that could be done immediately...

 

[CapnG]

But as I mentioned earlier, and will mention once again, since we have no "proof" either way, why is it so bad to believe in those words which have been passed down for thousands of years which to this very day haven't been proven right, or dare I say it.... wrong.

There is so very much in the Bible that has been proven wrong, not least of which being the orbit of the earth around the sun (and not vice versa as stated within the scriptures). I'm not looking to lump in to theological debate, I'm just saying you shouldn't make such broad statements haphazardly.

As to why it is bad to believe, it's bad to believe ANYTHING. Where data exists but is ignored, belief is ignorance by choice. Where no data exists, belief is simply a guess. Beliefs are for people who are uncomfortable with the idea of not knowing things.

But back to disclosure, if there is to be any it will come (as has been stated by persons wiser than myself) from the source and not from the government, be that source extra-terrestrial/temporal/dimensional/whatever.

 

[PararealitySaint]

There is so very much in the Bible that has been proven wrong, not least of which being the orbit of the earth around the sun (and not vice versa as stated within the scriptures). I'm not looking to lump in to theological debate, I'm just saying you shouldn't make such broad statements haphazardly.

As to why it is bad to believe, it's bad to believe ANYTHING. Where data exists but is ignored, belief is ignorance by choice. Where no data exists, belief is simply a guess. Beliefs are for people who are uncomfortable with the idea of not knowing things.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Once again I see where I must clarify what it is I am stating. If you understood the context of my quotation correctly which you included in your reply, you would notice that the actual statement was in fact that my religious beliefs have NOT been proven EITHER right or wrong, but merely utilized as a foundation for an all inclusive justification, one based upon the lack of an ongoing (scientifically or otherwise based) factual explanation whatsoever.

The “orbit around the sun thing”….Please. If I was to provide anyone here with the constant the charlatans who call themselves “scientists” were using as the supposed “proof” of any form of intelligent extra terrestrial life, you know, the falsities they spew forth on an ongoing basis, I would have to print an encyclopedia in order to reference it.

Disclosure is nothing more than a wannabe form of wishful thinking, based on an over imaginative sense of humanistic narcissism.

These so called scientists have attempted to take God out of the formula for centuries and yet every time they seem to think they come close, there’s some other bit of "unwinding-explanation" which appears and kicks them right in their proverbial asses.

My original feelings on the matter stand.

 

[Simone_m]

most "ufologists" are telling you what they think is correct.

I believe this is true. I like Dr. Roger Lier. He is a real medical doctor and sends these implants he retrieves, off to laboritories for testing. I don't respect Ufologists who become sexy Ufollywood stars on short-lived reality TV shows that everyone pans in the forums and blogs

---------- Post added at 04:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 AM ----------

disclosure is nothing more than a wannabe form of wishful thinking, based on an over imaginative sense of humanistic narcissism

meggadittos!