Tough answers

[boomerang]

This is a sort of thought experiment. So humor me.

Question and Answer Session

Much has been said about why knowledge of encounters with vastly superior beings from elsewhere seems to have been kept a jealously guarded secret. Imagine a conversation bewteen human elites and ET from an ancient civilization going something like this:

Q. Will mankinkd survive to eventually leave planet earth and explore the stars?
A. No. You are simply unsuited.

Q. So you are saying we are quarantined to Earth, or to the the solar system?
A. Except for certain occupied areas of your moon and solar system, no quarantine is necessary. You species' brains are simply incapable of utilizing nature in ways to travel further.

Q. Will mankind survive?
A. Be more specific.

Q. How long can mankind survive?
A. Certainly no longer than your sun. But probably for a much shorter time.

Q. Is there life for us after death?
A. No. Immortality is a function of technology and belongs to more advanced species.

Q. Is there a god? An ultimate superior being?
A. There are superior beings that could be your gods. But in the context of your question, no.

Q. How can you be sure there is no god?
A. Certainty is a concept of inferior minds. But the probablility of such is so small as to be effectively nil.

Q. Are you saying you are infallible ?
A. Infallible is a relative term as well. But compared to you, yes. This is why you are asking and we are answering.

Q. Then what is to be our ultimate fate?
A. Your genetic codes may be of some value for purposes beyond your ability to comprehend. You may therefore be protected for an extended time. Or not.

Q. How can we know you are giving us truthful answers to these questions? How can we know we are not simply being manipulated?
A. You cannot.
---------
Probably just bad science fiction. But imagine being tasked with handling such information. The tendency might be to bury it in the deepest hole available.

 

[Muadib]

This is a sort of thought experiment. So humor me.

Question and Answer Session

Much has been said about why knowledge of encounters with vastly superior beings from elsewhere seems to have been kept a jealously guarded secret. Imagine a conversation bewteen human elites and ET from an ancient civilization going something like this:

Q. Will mankinkd survive to eventually leave planet earth and explore the stars?
A. No. You are simply unsuited.

Q. So you are saying we are quarantined to Earth, or to the the solar system?
A. Except for certain occupied areas of your moon and solar system, no quarantine is necessary. You species' brains are simply incapable of utilizing nature in ways to travel further.

Q. Will mankind survive?
A. Be more specific.

Q. How long can mankind survive?
A. Certainly no longer than your sun. But probably for a much shorter time.

Q. Is there life for us after death?
A. No. Immortality is a function of technology and belongs to more advanced species.

Q. Is there a god? An ultimate superior being?
A. There are superior beings that could be your gods. But in the context of your question, no.

Q. How can you be sure there is no god?
A. Certainty is a concept of inferior minds. But the probablility of such is so small as to be effectively nil.

Q. Are you saying you are infallible ?
A. Infallible is a relative term as well. But compared to you, yes. This is why you are asking and we are answering.

Q. Then what is to be our ultimate fate?
A. Your genetic codes may be of some value for purposes beyond your ability to comprehend. You may therefore be protected for an extended time. Or not.

Q. How can we know you are giving us truthful answers to these questions? How can we know we are not simply being manipulated?
A. You cannot.
---------
Probably just bad science fiction. But imagine being tasked with handling such information. The tendency might be to bury it in the deepest hole available.

Maybe I just have bad taste but I think it might make some damn good science fiction, it's a very interesting conversation. You could create a story around this conversation that goes in a number of different directions if you wanted to.

Still, the part that sticks out the most for me is the last question, if we can't know whether or not they are simply manipulating us, we don't know whether anything in the prior conversation is true or not. The question then becomes: are we incapable of ever knowing whether or not we're being manipulated or are we just currently incapable?

 

[ProphetofOccam]

An alien race of Sheldons.

It was a fun read.

 

[Wade]

Agreed Prophet, boomerang had the cadence and double-speak of what is usually reported in any alien contact...and sci-fi writings...down perfectly.

If I ever found myself on a bus and a et sat down next to me and pulled that crap on me I'd get off at the very next stop.

 

[Wade]

Agreed Prophet, boomerang had the cadence and double-speak of what is usually reported in any alien contact...and sci-fi writings...down perfectly.

If I ever found myself on a bus and a et sat down next to me and pulled that crap on me I'd get off at the very next stop.

@ muadib, IF the above conversation did take place with an advanced being , I'd say it was damn near proof that we were being manipulated with such an evasive dialogue on the alien's part

 

[Wade]

Well that was weird must have been a blip in the matrix.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Personally I would quite like to ruin many people's convictions that we are this or that and that we have this or that god protecting us and if we suck up to him/her enough we get to play with him forever more. All those religious extremists - man, I would just love it for them to be proved wrong, especially if ET could prove and show what really went on around the times that are written about in various religious texts.

I wonder how many of the world's population would respond if their religion and afterlife was taken away from them. Would some revert to more animal behaviours or would people respond by valuing this one single life more?
Anyway, I think we should 'man up' and take whatever is the truth.

 

[exo_doc]

Personally I would quite like to ruin many people's convictions that we are this or that and that we have this or that god protecting us and if we suck up to him/her enough we get to play with him forever more. All those religious extremists - man, I would just love it for them to be proved wrong, especially if ET could prove and show what really went on around the times that are written about in various religious texts.

I wonder how many of the world's population would respond if their religion and afterlife was taken away from them. Would some revert to more animal behaviours or would people respond by valuing this one single life more?
Anyway, I think we should 'man up' and take whatever is the truth.

Goggs that kind of thing happening would cause massive emotional and mental trauma.
I'll be the first to admit religious zealots get under my skin, but don't you think it's kind of harsh to suddenly take away someones psychological support (unless they are being uber-Inquizition type religious zealots)?

 

[ProphetofOccam]

No matter what an alien would claim or show, the religious would remain religious. Fundamentalists find ways to build nonsense arguments around evolutionary biology, quantum/astro physics, and archeology; they'll find a way around alien demonstrations.

 

[stonehart]

Maybe I am reading into this more than I should but for the sake of playing the game indulge me.

Q. Will mankind survive to eventually leave planet earth and explore the stars?
A. No. You are simply unsuited.

This can be read in two ways.

1. that we will never leave this world at all and go extinct.

... or ..

2. That the reference is to either our state of evolution be it mental, social, physical, or all of these combined.

What I am getting at is when I hear "advanced being" I always preface this in my head with biological and technological evolution, which means in this case that humans have not evolved enough technologically and socially to deal with long distance space exploration.

In reality I think that it is true that as a species we have not evolved enough yet socially, technologically, or mentally, but I do see humanity moving out into space if we can get out of our infancy here and grow up a bit.

Goggs puts it well.

Personally I would quite like to ruin many people's convictions that we are this or that and that we have this or that god protecting us and if we suck up to him/her enough we get to play with him forever more. All those religious extremists - man, I would just love it for them to be proved wrong, especially if ET could prove and show what really went on around the times that are written about in various religious texts.

I wonder how many of the world's population would respond if their religion and afterlife was taken away from them. Would some revert to more animal behaviours or would people respond by valuing this one single life more?
Anyway, I think we should 'man up' and take whatever is the truth.

The humanity that truly starts to explore the galaxy will not be the humanity that we see today I can tell you that much, for as much as the hard core religious would like to think we are made in the image of their selected imaginary friend we are an unfinished work that is still evolving.

And we will continue to do so until such time as we go extinct, the only question is when and here is the cool part of this.

Like I said we are still evolving and as such in another 500,000 years could you still call us human? but even in a shorter time scale as technology and biology continue the collision course that seems almost inevitable could we consider ourselves human in 50 or a 100 years?

Things to consider seriously.

So if this is the case then the Alien is playing a word game with the questioner, who probably at the time (1940-50's? or it could be now) would not have understood that the question did not really make sense and the alien was referring to us in our current sate of evolution.

 

[mike]

No matter what an alien would claim or show, the religious would remain religious. Fundamentalists find ways to build nonsense arguments around evolutionary biology, quantum/astro physics, and archeology; they'll find a way around alien demonstrations.

Quite right, they would simply pull the demon card, saying any info from this source is from the Devil.

Even now the very possibility there might be ET's visiting (which logically puts a hole in the fundie pov) is regarded by them as "demonic".
Try telling a 4 year old santa claus isnt real, and the reaction will be "you're lying"
"This is deception not truth" is the instinctive reaction to an inconvenient fact

To the OP, i think its inevitable that an advanced species would have information that refutes and negates our own relatively primative views of the universe.

I think "is god real" would be one of the first questions we would have put to any ET emissary, in the various reported contact rumours that abound (Eisenhower et al)

And i speculate the answer would be no, since thats my personal view based on the evidence.

And thats just one scenario where we would bury the truth and try and keep it so for as long as possible

 

[stonehart]

Try telling a 4 year old santa claus isnt real, and the reaction will be "you're lying"

Yeah but a 4 year old is not going to have you stoned to death, beaten up or harassed.
Innocence and imaginary friends is healthy in a child but extremely dangerous in an adult.

Nice post Mike.

 

[5tomidnite]

I could see where you wouldn't want to share the content of the conversation with the rest of the population. It doesn't paint humanity in the most positive light or offer hope for the future of the species. I could see that as a justifiable reason to hide it from the general population. In this case alien contact has nothing to offer humanity.

Of course if I was humanity's representative in this case I would require more than the alien's word for it. I'd like to see some data on humanity's supposed inferiority.

 

[Trajanus]

Q. Will mankinkd survive to eventually leave planet earth and explore the stars?
A. No. You are simply unsuited.

I don't think they'd say this. We've been to the moon and could get farther; we're still progressing.

A. Except for certain occupied areas of your moon and solar system, no quarantine is necessary. You species' brains are simply incapable of utilizing nature in ways to travel further.

Silly arrogance. Like sc fi not te real world.

Q. Is there life for us after death?
A. No. Immortality is a function of technology and belongs to more advanced species.

And we can't become advanced? We're becoming more so every day.

Q. Is there a god? An ultimate superior being?
A. There are superior beings that could be your gods. But in the context of your question, no.

Q. How can you be sure there is no god?
A. Certainty is a concept of inferior minds. But the probablility of such is so small as to be effectively nil.

Now this makes sense. I'm like others here in being receptive to it.

A. Your genetic codes may be of some value for purposes beyond your ability to comprehend. You may therefore be protected for an extended time. Or not.

This appears to contradict belief in our innate inferiority and their infallibility. Why need our genes if we're no good and why aren't they sure?

. How can we know you are giving us truthful answers to these questions? How can we know we are not simply being manipulated?
A. You cannot.

Well, he sure seems ingenuous. You'd think a manipulator would flatter us and confirm our beliefs.
---------

Probably just bad science fiction

Yup.

 

[boomerang]

Trajanus: As I said, this is a kind of thought experiment that might explain why we seem to be kept in the dark with this phenomenon. No one has to agree. But let me clarify my reasoning, right or wrong, behind some of the dialogue.

- No. You are simply unsuited.
What if the ET is telling the truth and H Sapiens simply lacks the biological mojo to do more than burn millions of tons of chemicals just to land small payloads in our neighborhood? Our current accomplishments seem miraculous to us. But are straining mankind both technically and (more importantly) to economic limits. As much as you love your dog, could you send him or her to MIT?

-Except for certain occupied areas of your moon and solar system, no quarantine is necessary. You species' brains are simply incapable of utilizing nature in ways to travel further.
Again, based on the assumption that a path to the stars is more than simply refining technologies of which we are capable. Theoretical physics has been reaching a kind of point of diminishing returns. We are investing more and more precious resource for less and less in the way of fundamental knowledge and control of nature. Richard Feynman saw this coming decades ago. CERN will be the practical limit for experimental research for the foreseeable future. Decades of work on controlled fusion has so far failed to provide a long term source of clean, unlimited energy.

-Certainly no longer than your sun. But probably for a much shorter time.
This presupposes that ET is giving honest answers and current trends in human affairs are extrapolated. Of course, no one sees the future.

- No. Immortality is a function of technology and belongs to more advanced species.
A return to ET's theme of our biological inadequacy. If no path to immortality is inherent in the universe, then it may indeed be a privilege (or curse) reserved for species capable of sustaining themselves by natural law.

- Your genetic codes may be of some value for purposes beyond your ability to comprehend. You may therefore be protected for an extended time. Or not.
A thought along the lines of Charles Fort's observation that "We are property." Our DNA sequences may represent complex information conceivably of value for purposes we cannot comprehend. It might explain why we seem to have been shaped and monitored throughout history. It doesn't mean we would not be inferior any more than gene spliced yeast used to produce vital medications is not inferior to us.

And the big caveat at the end: ET could just as easily be lying about some or all of the above for its own purposes. And we would have no way whatsoever to tell. I can think of no reason why a superior species would necessarily want to flatter us.

I'm not saying my post is the scenario, just one possible scenario that might explain why the public is be kept ignorant and confused. It seems equally likely that such an exchange has never taken place and everyone is clueless and confused.

 

[Polterwurst]

Q. Is there life for us after death?
A. No. Immortality is a function of technology and belongs to more advanced species.

Wow. That advanced, huh?

Sorry, all I see is you projecting your own worldview on the "superior minds" of hypothetical ETs, probably to make it look more reasonable or something. Nothing wrong with that, of course, as long as you don't claim it's an actual excerpt of a dialogue between us and "them". Still, "immortality is a function of technology" is nothing but a hypothesis and there is actually some evidence against it.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Goggs that kind of thing happening would cause massive emotional and mental trauma.
I'll be the first to admit religious zealots get under my skin, but don't you think it's kind of harsh to suddenly take away someones psychological support (unless they are being uber-Inquizition type religious zealots)?

Actually I don't think it harsh. Medical ethics prevent professionals from reinforcing any delusion in a patient.
Remember also that a huge percentage of religious believers are not 100% sure. Many 'struggle' with their faith which means that they have doubts anyway. The number of 100% sure -not a chance in hell - not a shadow of a doubt - crowd is relatively quite small I would imagine, though of course I am not sure.
My point being that for many it may not be as big a surprise as you think. I wonder that some may find a kind of relief! If you don't have to worry about going to hell for eternity, nor the sins you commit, then perhaps the weight of responsibility of the next life is taken away?

Another point relative to what I've said is that if God is the God, as in creator of everything, then I don't see how any physical ET would have any more answers than us. How can any living creature know what happens after death? We just could not trust another species to know or be willing to tell us, any more than our own leaders.
I was more meaning that the actual religions like Judaism, Christianity etc can be proven as man-made. This does not negate at all though, the existence of a God. I would hope that once the silly differences in these religions are swept away, perhaps people could get along better and if they have to believe in an all-powerful God to feel better about the biggest questions in life, that there are no more reasons to make divisions in the world based on these man-made religions.

One more aspect is say for instance ET could prove Moses or Jesus etc were not in the least 'divine' and all the supernatural stuff in the religious texts was made up, that doesn't actually have to lessen the importance or value of the lessons in these texts. I myself like to quote things such like 'do unto others as you would have them do to you' and suchlike. Even me, the hardened agnostic/atheist (not sure) finds a lot of common sense and good lessons for life in these texts. For me, proving that those texts have nothing divine, does not render them worthless.
Who knows, people may choose to still worship Christ, even knowing he was just born like the rest of us, it is pretty undeniable that he or someone like him actually lived and did preach. Many people follow religious leaders they know are not divine so all that may continue.

But my main arguments is that I don't see how ET could know if God exists or not, and of course they might not know anything more than us, or tell the truth if they did?

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Personally I would quite like to ruin many people's convictions that we are this or that and that we have this or that god protecting us and if we suck up to him/her enough we get to play with him forever more. All those religious extremists - man, I would just love it for them to be proved wrong, especially if ET could prove and show what really went on around the times that are written about in various religious texts.

I wonder how many of the world's population would respond if their religion and afterlife was taken away from them. Would some revert to more animal behaviours or would people respond by valuing this one single life more?
Anyway, I think we should 'man up' and take whatever is the truth.

When I said 'I'd like to ruin many people's convictions....,' what I meant was aimed at the zealots and extremists. We all know the type. As I am always quick to point out, a large portion of my family are active christians. I don't want to ruin their day etc, I want those who use religion for their own purposes to be exposed as either charlatans, or sorely misguided.

I hope that is clear; I don't want to be known as someone who just enjoys making people unhappy!

 

[dyingsun]

At least some of those hypothetical answers line up with what I learned/have seen on my magical undertakings...

 

[dyingsun]

Stop making people unhappy, Goggs