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UFO Debunkers: Irrational, Uninformed and Ignorant

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I was close to the Lazar story for quite awhile back in the "day", which is one reason I keep him in my "grey" basket. The one thing that has stuck with me was the situation where he (Lazar) took Gene Huff, John Lear and his (Lazar's) sister-in-law out to the site to witness the test flying of "something" darting about the mts. in which they filmed it. That was the night they were caught by security and then the Sheriff's dept. If Lazar was phony, I always wondered how he knew about these tests? And, there was the incident when his house was ransacked by what seemed to be Federal agents and the fact his home telephones were bugged. This, according to events at the time, was when supposedly security informed Lazar that Lazar's wife was having an affair behind his back.

There were a lot of things at the time that I knew about from Knapp, Lear, Huff et al. All I can say was those were some very weird days.

Decker
 
I was close to the Lazar story for quite awhile back in the "day", which is one reason I keep him in my "grey" basket. The one thing that has stuck with me was the situation where he (Lazar) took Gene Huff, John Lear and his (Lazar's) sister-in-law out to the site to witness the test flying of "something" darting about the mts. in which they filmed it. That was the night they were caught by security and then the Sheriff's dept. If Lazar was phony, I always wondered how he knew about these tests? And, there was the incident when his house was ransacked by what seemed to be Federal agents and the fact his home telephones were bugged. This, according to events at the time, was when supposedly security informed Lazar that Lazar's wife was having an affair behind his back.

There were a lot of things at the time that I knew about from Knapp, Lear, Huff et al. All I can say was those were some very weird days.

Decker

He's in my grey basket too Don. But if i was to bet.

Lazar probably never worked out at Area 51 , but was mostly hired by someone in the black project arena to spread false information about UFO's.. Were is this video i have never seen this?

Also the people involved are hardly the most trustworthy bunch of people you are likely to meet.

Gene Huff close friend of Lazar how reliable is he as a witness been an everyday friend of his?

John Lear is a looney tune Don you are well aware of this. So i have little faith in his testimony to this having happened.

Lazar sister in law (know nothing about her but is it possible she is lying?)
 
That was Lazar's wife's sister. No Kieran .. I know nothing about her. But .. that video was shown in the past, they were caught out there .. that is simply a fact of history. You know, I am somewhat surprised at the emotion this topic causes among some people so many years later.

Decker
 
I was close to the Lazar story for quite awhile back in the "day", which is one reason I keep him in my "grey" basket. The one thing that has stuck with me was the situation where he (Lazar) took Gene Huff, John Lear and his (Lazar's) sister-in-law out to the site to witness the test flying of "something" darting about the mts. in which they filmed it. That was the night they were caught by security and then the Sheriff's dept. If Lazar was phony, I always wondered how he knew about these tests? And, there was the incident when his house was ransacked by what seemed to be Federal agents and the fact his home telephones were bugged. This, according to events at the time, was when supposedly security informed Lazar that Lazar's wife was having an affair behind his back.

There were a lot of things at the time that I knew about from Knapp, Lear, Huff et al. All I can say was those were some very weird days.

Decker

Perhaps Lazar was one of those odd characters who wind up as pawns in some larger scheme? I'm shooting in the dark here. But it seems plausible.
 
Yes, Lazar took several polygraphs. If I recall, he passed several but one according to a skeptic at the time, was "inconclusive". We are talking close to 21 or 22 years ago however.

Decker
 
Well, polygraph's do work. A lot depends upon the polygraph operator and the subject taking the test. All it will do is suggest that the person taking the test either believes what he or she is telling you ... or not. I have taken several polygraphs and they sure worked with me. They are a tool and lots depends upon the operator. Today however there is much better technology to determine truth or deception. One example is voice stress tech. I have seen that work and was amazed at the accuracy. Who knows where it will go in the future?

Decker
 
But you know what would happen Don? Some case like Travis Walton may come along and the skeptics demand a polygraph or voice stress analysis. Then the person might 'pass' and then they will say 'these tests are not always accurate'.

You cannot win with some people, such as Phil Klass - who I think knew full well the reality of UFOs and was probably an active disinfo agent. It's almost the only thing that makes sense when you have clever scientists absolutely refusing to acknowledge strong evidence.
 
Do you mean like an 'official' part? A sanctioned part? It could explain a lot. I have written before that there is something about Bob Lazar that makes me think it isn't just him hoaxing. I don't know what exactly but there are things that are strange.

I know some people can be good liars etc but at the same time you take a long-time investigative reporter like George Knapp and he still stands by his feeling that Bob believes what he says. That is proof of nothing but I find it interesting.
 
I'm not convinced Lazar isn't another source of disinformation and I don't buy into his Element 115 propulsion technobabble.

An aside on polygraphs. Polygraphs are interrogation devices and for the most part a red herring. The main reason for getting someone to submit to a lie detector is to get them into a voluntary interrogation where the questions asked and the answers given are more important than the data from the gizmo. A skilled interrogator will get information that the subject isn't even aware they are disclosing.
 
Good to know - next time I'm arrested (;)) I will not submit to a polygraph!

I volunteered to take a polygraph test once to assist in the investigation of a missing firearm from a place I once worked at. That experience made it really obvious what it was really all about.
 
Bob Lazar is a very interesting fellow, I think we can say firmly that his education background is lacking and most likely made up. However he is persuasive because his story has remained unchanged for over 20 years and he has passed several polygraph tests. Additionally, he does have some supporting evidence in his favor. George Knapp, for example, interviewed people off the record that remember working with him at Los Alamos. He also interviewed other Area 51 employees and asked them trivial questions like "what color are the walls in the mess hall." When Knapp asked Lazar these same questions, his answers were on par with the verifiable employees. So clearly Bob Lazar was peddling some basic truths. Moreover, people like Boyd Bushman have spoken favorably of Lazar and seem to support him. We also can't forget Ed Teller's odd response to the Bob Lazar questions. Finally, Knapp was able to affirm that Lazar did in fact work at Los Alamos via a subcontractor. He obviously had enough scientific knowledge to work in the field and enough knowledge of Los Alamos to give Knapp a detailed tour of the facility, along with receiving several acknowledgments from those working on-site there. According to Knapp, Lazar was a known commodity there. Knapp's supports Lazar primarily based on this point. That is to say, If Lazar had worked at Los Alamos on government projects, then it is at least conceivable that he worked out at S-4 on more classified projects. Beyond that it gets murky.

So where does that leave us? I tend to believe much of what Bob Lazar has said. I do believe he worked at Los Alamos and probably got the attention of some governmental guys. Here was bright young scientist who probably lied his way into his subcontractor position or talked his way into it without the sort of formal education others had. From there, watchful government employees knew they had a perfect candidate for their plans out at S-4. By choosing Lazar, the government had plausible deniability, based largely on his false education information. In fact they could have used this disparity to actually coax him into the program, i.e., "Listen Lazar, we know you are lying about your education in order to work at Los Alamos. We don't have to remind you that you're working around classified information, this is all end very bad for you. However, what we are offering you here is a deal. You do this for us, we overlook the problems with your background."

Next think you know, Lazar is brought out to S-4, shown some odd technology over the course of a a few weeks, then cut him loose. I am even open to the possibility that while S-4 he could have been exposed to some mind control where they actually implanted his belief that he attended MIT. This would ensure he would emphatically maintain his educational background while the government could easily dismiss him on this basis. As Don stated, if someone believes they did something, then any polygraph machine will read as such.

I am still on the fence about the true nature of the technology Lazar claimed to have seen. I am not sure if this was genuine reversed engineered material or just a cleverly planned dis-information operation. Regardless, it seems like everyone got what they wanted out of the story. Last I heard Lazar has never held a real job, but he does manage to peddle little scientific parts and pieces to government agencies and schools via his United Nuclear. Sort of makes you wonder.
 
Where are the results of these polygraph tests that Lazar has passed?

The problems with Lazar start at his education. His element 115 claim is absurd given what we now know about that Element. The quiz that was given to Lazar from Knapp only proves that he has been on base.

At the time Lazar ran a photo processing repair business. I am not alone in speculating that since he worked at Los Alamos (as a technician not a scientist) that he already had a security clearance. Thus, when the base needed outside help on a repair he was the logical choice. That's probably how he knew enough to convince Knapp that he had been on the base.

The ONLY thing that lends any credence to the Lazar story is his familiarity with an obvious flight test schedule. Perhaps something he glimpsed while fixing a photo machine. I am not sure. But, what I am positive about is that he has an 8th graders understanding physics and can spin a good yarn. That's it!
 
This is from George Knapp, a pretty credible guy:

"When I asked Bob to submit to a polygraph exam, he did not hesitate. The first exam was inconclusive. The examiner said he felt that Lazar was too frightened to register an accurate result. The second set of polygraph exams was administered by a former Orange County police officer, Terry Tavernetti, who still works as a security chief for a major LV corporation. Tavernetti took a lot more time in calming Bob down prior to the exams. He administered four sets of tests and Bob passed all of them...easily. Tavernetti gave me an on camera interview and said that Lazar was being truthful. A few months later, there was a break-in at TT's home. The burglars targeted his polygraph charts and nothing else. Hmmm."

Although you might be positive that Lazar has an 8th graders understanding of physics, I recently heard Dr. John Brandenburg give his opinion of Lazar's understanding of physics. You can hear this for yourself on his most recent interview on Don Ecker's Dark Matters Radio (a few weeks ago). Dr. Brandenburg stated he didn't have a problem with Lazar's testimony and nothing he said was scientifically incorrect. I don't know what your personal scientific qualifications are but Dr. Brandenburg has his Ph.D in plasma physics.
 
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