Ufos and obsessive irrational hate?

[Muadib]

What's an "RVer" ?

RVer= Remote Viewer

 

[Randall]

RVer= Remote Viewer

Oh thanks ... I should have guessed. I didn't think it was "Recreational Vehicler"

What I find is that the claims seem exaggerated and the claimants can't produce results on queue. This leads conservative or skeptical listeners to the assumption that there is nothing to the concept but fantasy. Nevertheless, from personal experience, I tend to think that is something to it, but it's just not well refined or evolved.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

What's an "RVer" ?

remote viewer

 

[Muadib]

Oh thanks ... I should have guessed. I didn't think it was "Recreational Vehicler"

What I find is that the claims seem exaggerated and the claimants can't produce results on queue. This leads conservative or skeptical listeners to the assumption that there is nothing to the concept but fantasy. Nevertheless, from personal experience, I tend to think that is something to it, but it's just not well refined or evolved.

I don't necessarily discount it completely but looking at the track of record of some of these so called remote viewers, you have to wonder just what exactly they are seeing and why none of it ever seems to translate to actual events. Someone like Ed Dames is consistently wrong on so many levels that you have to wonder if he doesn't just make shit up as he goes along. He's been predicting giant solar kill shots for years now and yet, here we are. When you've got someone like that representing your field it's no wonder people are skeptical.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I don't necessarily discount it completely but looking at the track of record of some of these so called remote viewers, you have to wonder just what exactly they are seeing and why none of it ever seems to translate to actual events. Someone like Ed Dames is consistently wrong on so many levels that you have to wonder if he doesn't just make shit up as he goes along. He's been predicting giant solar kill shots for years now and yet, here we are. When you've got someone like that representing your field it's no wonder people are skeptical.

Dames is totally making shit up as he goes along IMO!

 

[Randall]

Dames is totally making shit up as he goes along IMO!

It seems that there are always people willing to exploit and milk whatever small shred of truth there may be to the point where it becomes a detriment to anyone who might want to take it more seriously.

 

[Randall]

Here's an example of someone who decided to single me out for online harassment in another forum. Note that the the names ( except mine ) have been changed or withheld due to Paracast's policing, which resulted in past posts being deleted, apparently because the exposure was deemed as violating the privacy rights of the offender ( we certainly wouldn't want to upset them now would we ).

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[ Instigator ]: "At some point, [ Name Withheld ], you might want to address us all on how you want to proceed ... I'm actually hoping to do more than piss on Ufology's leg (though that was fun)."​

​

What kind of "fun" do jerks like that get? Is there some sort of personality disorder or ulterior motive at work? I just don't get it.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Ufology- yes you do have a reputation for being pretty ardent nuts n bolts + ETH and you will go to great lengths to explain your positions. This is neither praise nor blame - just as I see it.

I don't see any of that as being reason to 'gang up' to 'piss on your leg' or anything else though. No-one here has to engage in debate with you, me or anyone else and I don't see you trying to turn non-ufo threads into a ufo debate, unlike when certain members turned anything and everything into a pro-religion thread.

I don't know the background to all this but I personally have had zero issues with you or what you post and if the above in your post is true then it kinda looks like a bit of playground bullying which isn't really befitting a forum covering these topics. In fact, I am constantly amazed at the in-fighting within ufology (the field) that goes on amongst 'the names' etc. I just don't have a problem -in fact I prefer-that there are so many different views. It makes it more likely that on occasion you come across what may turn out to be the 'correct' one.

So NO to bullying and YES to free speech in forums talking about the parnormal!

 

[boomerang]

The field is sadly infamous for this sort of thing. As someone noted, something about the subject matters often triggers emotional responses all out of proportion to the evidence at hand. I find this to be true of many believers and non-believers alike. It seems to manifest in the great lengths mainstream newscasters go to in playing up the giggle factor in those instances when they have no choice but to cover this kind of news. There must be a graduate thesis subject in here somewhere.

Petty bickering at conventions has been largely replaced by online flaming. How's that for progress? I'm also guessing your emotionally neutral way of sticking to discussion of evidence drives certain kinds of lurking kooks up the wall. A little like the mouthy punk in the old western movies who compulsively pushes the quiet guy at the bar into a fight. At any rate, don't let the nutters out there push your buttons!

 

[Randall]

I'm also guessing your emotionally neutral way of sticking to discussion of evidence drives certain kinds of lurking kooks up the wall. A little like the mouthy punk in the old western movies who compulsively pushes the quiet guy at the bar into a fight. At any rate, don't let the nutters out there push your buttons!

At age 54 I can now only reminisce ... ahhh the good ole days ... If only I could be a mouthy punk again ... but still know what I know now ... perhaps I might have gone into radio ... hmm ... nah ... I still would have bought my Marshall and Les Paul to accompany my rebellious anti-establishment vocals. The only reason I don't do it now is because I want to preserve what's left of my hearing ... well that and I also more or less also suck ... but that's never stopped me before .

 

[boomerang]

At age 54 I can now only reminisce ... ahhh the good ole days ... If only I could be a mouthy punk again ... but still know what I know now ... perhaps I might have gone into radio ... hmm ... nah ... I still would have bought my Marshall and Les Paul to accompany my rebellious anti-establishment vocals. The only reason I don't do it now is because I want to preserve what's left of my hearing ... well that and I also more or less also suck ... but that's never stopped me before .

I had you pictured as the quiet guy in the bar scenario. But I think we were all a little more mouthy in the days of our tumultuous youth.

 

[Randall]

I had you pictured as the quiet guy in the bar scenario. But I think we were all a little more mouthy in the days of our tumultuous youth.

That's humorous ... I must be suffering from a guilt complex.

 

[Burnt State]

The field is sadly infamous for this sort of thing. As someone noted, something about the subject matters often triggers emotional responses all out of proportion to the evidence at hand. I find this to be true of many believers and non-believers alike.

Which is exactly where this thread started by saucerwench began. The field of Ufology and the paranormal is a magnetic force that pulls in extremes from all angles. It's hard to separate signal fom noise as there is no signal anyone could point to that a large number of participants could agree on as a core trajectory of critical/creative thinking about the phenomenon. I like Vallee, McDonald and Clark and others who travel a line that makes sense to me. But I'm sure others in Ufology see these as old guard, past their prime and no longer relevant. One person's reality is easily someone else's fantasy or nightmare.

I don't know how or why saucerwench got banned but the amount of flaming and insults is ultimately about self destruction. In this way it will never become a real field of study as there's nothing to agree on. Because there is no longer an agreed upon terminology or basis to talk about the field (as new ideas get invented every day, often without factual basis) there's just a lot of wasted emotion.

Whenever we use words to express our beliefs it seems inevitable someone will get offended. Sometimes I find myself outright laughing at what someone else calls a fact. I don't mean to be insulting, hope others don't take it that way, as I'm not here to "piss on anyone's leg" and appreciate and try to respect sincerity where possible. Conflict, though, appears par for the course. I just try to keep my mouth shut at various points.

 

[ProphetofOccam]

It isn't known as the "Lunatic Fringe" for no reason. I have seen more than my fair share of nutjobs. In fact I stood in line to speak to get Friedman to sign a book once and was subjected to a 10 minute lecture about how the reptilians were secretly controlling the world's financial market. militaries, and mining operations from a mountain resort in France. I shit you not. This dude was absolutely serious. The scariest part is that there was a man standing right next to us nodding his head and muttering agreements. It was a sobering event.

I think a lot of that kind of stuff is fleeting and rooted in general unhappiness. In my personal life, I've only known two conspiracy buffs. One of them believed in almost every terrestrial conspiracy, whereas the other believed in every conspiracy (even conflicting conspiracies). One of them eventually got over it, as if it were a fad. The other continues to drift in and out of belief regarding randomly assembled ideas.

The latter, the perpetual belief drifter, is my dad. Sometimes, he just straight makes things up to believe in. He goes from one crazy sounding idea to the other, sometimes even managing to lose track of the overall narrative over time. He also has a lot of disgruntled feelings towards various institutions, both private and public, preventing him from feeling that these institutions can be trusted. These disgruntled feelings have nothing to do with conspiracy, but they prevent him from wanting to believe anything that these institutions have to say -- therefore, the opposite, or literally anything different, must be the real truth. His disgruntled feelings are then perpetuated by the conspiracies, conversely enabling him to rest assured that his emotional state is justified and his beliefs have weight. If he were a generally happier person, I don't think he'd have ever needed to distrust some of those institutions and thus never needed to feel the need to believe things that contradict what they have to say.

If this is true of the majority of the hardcore conspiracy and fringe types, and some studies have suggested that it is, then it would make sense for those feelings of distrust and a general lack of satisfaction or happiness to bleed over into everyday life. That would include social interaction. For some believers, conspiracy theory is basically "the thing that I hold on to that prevents me from being like the people with whom I am disgruntled." It is a precious, almost holy thing that, like religion, affords them the luxury of righteousness, which, due to the legitimate circumstances for their unhappiness, they ordinarily don't/can't experience. That can lead to the aggressive recitation, reaffirmation, and preemptive defense of core beliefs against otherwise innocent bystanders, or anyone who might be consciously or subconsciously seen as a potential threat to the feeling of righteousness; some people may be seen as a threat for simply appearing to be emotionally or financially better off than the offending party.

Certainly, this isn't true of your everyday paranormal enthusiast. However, the nature of the subject matter, that it is fringe and against the "mainstream," makes it a haven for the disgruntled and dissatisfied. Most of the people you'll meet are friendly and jovial, but there is certainly a sizable chunk who are neither of those things. When you encounter the disgruntled types, it's best just to smile and nod.

 

[Randall]

I think a lot of that kind of stuff is fleeting and rooted in general unhappiness ...

Let's dispense with the junk psychology. There are reasons people become disillusioned with institutions. Hypocrisy and greed abound and when one's personal life is affected by it, people have a right to feel unhappy and distrustful. So maybe go a little easier on your old man. If he's been screwed by the system, he's certainly not alone. Similarly, there is plenty of evidence that there has been a worldwide UFO cover-up. The number of documents previously denied by officials to exist that have since been released under the FOIA prove that secret investigations took place for many years. Other FOIA attempts have proven that there exists UFO related information that only a select few are privy to.

 

[ProphetofOccam]

Let's dispense with the junk psychology. There are reasons people become disillusioned with institutions. Hypocrisy and greed abound and when one's personal life is affected by it, people have a right to feel unhappy and distrustful.

To an extent, but when it leads to powerful feelings of dissatisfaction and powerlessness, it leads people to seek out something supportive and separate. It's not so much junk psychology as theoretical psychology supported by research. Nobody is suggesting that there aren;t good reasons to be unhappy with certain institutions from time to time.

So maybe go a little easier on your old man. If he's been screwed by the system, he's certainly not alone.

Before the conspiracy stuff, it was drugs and alcohol. Sometimes, it's easier to be disgruntled, and thirst for righteousness, when there are few legitimate reasons for one's subjective lack of success or happiness, especially when coupled with the seemingly contradictory success and happiness of others who came from the same system. It can often create anger, resentment and misplaced distrust. I don't hound on the guy. I just understand that he fits a known psychological profile. Since he has theoretically stopped using drugs and alcohol, the conspiracy stuff took off. It's a defense mechanism. We all just let him have it.

Similarly, there is plenty of evidence that there has been a worldwide UFO cover-up. The number of documents previously denied by officials to exist that have since been released under the FOIA prove that secret investigations took place for many years. Other FOIA attempts have proven that there exists UFO related information that only a select few are privy to

I'm not sure how that's related to what i said, or the overall subject matter, but we all have our different ways of perceiving that kind of thing. Nobody wants to deny anybody the right to their personal perceptions.

 

[Randall]

Before the conspiracy stuff, it was drugs and alcohol ... Since he has theoretically stopped using drugs and alcohol, the conspiracy stuff took off. It's a defense mechanism.

I've seen drug abuse ( not mere recreational use ) completely ruin people, but I've never seen conspiracy theories become a substitute. I have however seen religion or group therapy become a substitute, so I'll grant that it's possible that a conspiracy theory framework could perform a similar function. The biggest difference is that the other substitutes usually involve some sort of program e.g. the 12 step program, which is a systematic group-based approach. So I'm not sure how one would become programmed into a conspiracy theory mode without some intense third party support. It would be very interesting to do a study to determine if similar behavior has been noticed in other cases. Whatever the case may be, I hope you can maintain a positive relationship. Best of luck there.

 

[Muadib]

I've seen drug abuse ( not mere recreational use ) completely ruin people, but I've never seen conspiracy theories become a substitute. I have however seen religion or group therapy become a substitute, so I'll grant that it's possible that a conspiracy theory framework could perform a similar function. The biggest difference is that the other substitutes usually involve some sort of program e.g. the 12 step program, which is a systematic group-based approach. So I'm not sure how one would become programmed into a conspiracy theory mode without some intense third party support. It would be very interesting to do a study to determine if similar behavior has been noticed in other cases. Whatever the case may be, I hope you can maintain a positive relationship. Best of luck there.

I think it's probably about a search for truth that's undertaken when one comes to the realization that their drug habit has become far more ruinous than it ever was enlightening. Some turn to religion but many drug users are already into alternative histories, beliefs and theories so for a growing number of them, religion, which is woven into pretty much every 12 step group in one form or another, is eschewed in favor of a science based approach which may or may not involve group therapy. People often don't realize just how time consuming it is to be a drug addict and when you give that up, you have to replace it with something. Conspiracy theory, the paranormal and a search for truth simply become a new hobby in place of the old.

 

[ProphetofOccam]

I've seen drug abuse ( not mere recreational use ) completely ruin people, but I've never seen conspiracy theories become a substitute. I have however seen religion or group therapy become a substitute, so I'll grant that it's possible that a conspiracy theory framework could perform a similar function.

The 12-step programs don't invoke particular religious ideologies, in general. They speak to a higher power. It can be religious in form, or it could be a slinky. It's literally whatever you feel empowers you to succeed. In his case, he used that lead to design his own spirituality/religion. It's about one part Oprah, one part conspiracy theory, one part stargate sg-1, and one part x-files.

My overall point was that according to several studies, conspiracy and fringe fanatics tend to suffer more often from social issues, depression, resentful paranoia, and even financial troubles. Not all, obviously, but it's a trend in the group. When people have a history of some of these things -- which they often tend to before engaging in the fanaticism -- it makes sense that they seek shelter in the fringe.

There are more healthy minded people interested in these things, but there are also more rationally interested people than fanatics.

 

[Randall]

The 12-step programs don't invoke particular religious ideologies, in general. They speak to a higher power. It can be religious in form, or it could be a slinky. It's literally whatever you feel empowers you to succeed. In his case, he used that lead to design his own spirituality/religion. It's about one part Oprah, one part conspiracy theory, one part stargate sg-1, and one part x-files.

My overall point was that according to several studies, conspiracy and fringe fanatics tend to suffer more often from social issues, depression, resentful paranoia, and even financial troubles. Not all, obviously, but it's a trend in the group. When people have a history of some of these things -- which they often tend to before engaging in the fanaticism -- it makes sense that they seek shelter in the fringe.

There are more healthy minded people interested in these things, but there are also more rationally interested people than fanatics.

Interesting discussion. Can you cite these "several studies" you are using as a reference please? I'd like to have a closer look at them.