UFOs and the National Security State, Vol. II

[AdamI]

My source gave me another piece of common sense advice that should be obvious for anyone:

Always ask one question: who benefits?

The problem with a lot of modern conspiracists is that they consistently come up with the wrong answer to that question.

You know what I wonder sometimes? Sometimes I wonder if the answer to the question of "who benefits?" isn't "us."

To some extent, it seems like a lot of the evil and corruption and lies that go on in the world go on to maintain a status quo that allows us to keep buying what we want, doing what we want, having our home values go up, etc. That's something else that bothers me about most conspiracists: they refuse to look in the mirror and ask whether the guy in the mirror is also in on the conspiracy?

So what did the average German know? Germany had just experienced a loss in WWI followed by a hyperinflationary depression. Hitler came to power and now everyone had jobs, everyone had wages, there was an economy, and Germany had a sense of "purpose" and national pride again. Maybe nobody wanted to know. They'd made their Faustian deal, just like we've made ours with our own powers that be.

Maynard from Tool said it pretty well:

"I met a boy wearing Van 501's
And a dope Beastie tee
Nipple rings
New tattoos
That claimed that he
Was OGT
Back from '92
From the first EP.
And in between sips of Coke
He told me that he thought
We were sellin' out
Layin' down
Suckin' up
To the man.

Well now I've got some
Advice for you, little buddy.
Before you point your finger
You should know that
I'm the man
If I'm the man,
Then your the man
And He's the man as well
So you can
Point that fuckin' finger up your ass."

---------- Post added at 03:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 AM ----------

Paul said:

"There exists a potentially troublesome minority in western societies with an anti-establishment mind-set: predominantly young, disenfranchised, politically radical and with time on their hands - look beyond the riot police lines at the G-20 meetings and you'll see thousands of them. How do you distract them from enquiring into the vitally important ET/UFO issue, and the huge black budgets allegedly appropriated to fund the development of new technologies to attempt to effectively manage it? You distract them with titillating grand conspiracies; you make sure they spend their time chasing phantoms, tilting at windmills. It's clever and to a large degree, it works. A person is sometimes smart, but people collectively can be pretty stupid, and easily manipulated into blind alleys. Plausible? You bet."

I think it's much, much bigger than just the ET/UFO issue... though that might be one of the issues in play. I think what you said above is generally true, and should be repeated. I've come to believe that a tremendous amount of "conspiritainment" is produced by the state and the military/intelligence/industrial world as a distraction. Not all of it, but a great deal of it... especially the "pop" stuff.

You should look up some of the interviews floating around the interwebs with Daniel Hopsicker. He's a 9/11 investigator that's turned up some really fascinating stuff, but it doesn't fit the typical 9/11 "truther" narrative. He actually claims that he doesn't really know exactly who did 9/11 or why, but he does uncover some evidence that the official story is an oversimplified fairy tale. He's also highly critical of the truther movement, and has dug up a bit of dirt on some of the figures involved with it. I wish I could remember some of the names right off the top of my head, but there was one with links to both the intelligence world and potentially to Mohammed Atta as well... which is a whole bag of interesting.

Another thing you said and that rings true to me is that a tremendous amount of the wealth produced by our industrial civilization seems to be being siphoned off somewhere. If I had to put my finger on it, I'd say it really kicked into high gear in the 70s. If you look at the economy, the way currencies have worked, the federal budget, wage growth, commodity prices, etc. since around 1971 it's not that hard to see the signature of some change in the fundamental dynamics of the system. It seems to have kicked up yet another notch around 2000.

Sometimes you can see explicit evidence of this. Remember Rumsfeld's off-the-cuff statement that the DOD was missing something like a trillion dollars? If you look into Iraq it sometimes looks like the whole thing is a giant money laundering operation and a giant excuse to move a lot of physical assets around, but for some purpose only tangentially related to "operation Iraqi freedom."

The wealth that's going missing seems to me to be sufficient to almost operate a parallel underground (literally or figuratively) civilization. Nick Pope and a few others have toyed around with this idea as a potential source for UFOs. Sometimes I call this the PPH: The ParaPolitical Hypothesis. The PPH would be "they're from here, are built by humans, but are from a secret 'black' branch of our own civilization." Imagine Mac Tonnies' CTH scenario but minus the "crypto" part.

 

[ArchieBedford]

Another thing you said and that rings true to me is that a tremendous amount of the wealth produced by our industrial civilization seems to be being siphoned off somewhere. If I had to put my finger on it, I'd say it really kicked into high gear in the 70s. If you look at the economy, the way currencies have worked, the federal budget, wage growth, commodity prices, etc. since around 1971 it's not that hard to see the signature of some change in the fundamental dynamics of the system. It seems to have kicked up yet another notch around 2000.

Have you read Dolan's books, or do you know him? This is the conclusion of his long thesis, boiled down to basics.

The paragraph you quote "There exists a potentially troublesome minority..." is my post BTW, not Paul's - he was in turn quoting it.

---------- Post added at 07:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 AM ----------

Sometimes you can see explicit evidence of this. Remember Rumsfeld's off-the-cuff statement that the DOD was missing something like a trillion dollars? If you look into Iraq it sometimes looks like the whole thing is a giant money laundering operation and a giant excuse to move a lot of physical assets around, but for some purpose only tangentially related to "operation Iraqi freedom."

Yes, agreed. The missing money from the Pentagon's budget quoted by Rummy in February 2001, four weeks after the Dubya administration took over, was actually two trillion dollars, and later in July it grew to three trillion. He also quoted these figures again in September 2001 for the umpteenth time - not the first time as those pushing the "9/11 inside job" naivety sometimes claim. This money had gone missing not only during the Clinton administration, but allegedly over a very long period, and could not be accounted for.

If you have Jesse Marcel's book, read chapter six. It's very telling. I have met Jesse a few times and as a man of unimpeachable integrity and principle I would bet my life that his account of a meeting inside the Capitol Building is true as described, and the content also rings true.

Interesting observation about the Iraq nightmare. It all looks very dark, but is of course possible that those behind all this missing money are actually working from the most altruistic of motives, if it is genuinely known that at least some of the "visitors" to manifest in the past 60 years do not have benign intentions for the human race. There's no way three trillion dollars, or even two trillion, is being used for no purpose other than personal wealth accumulation.

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

A number of people on this Forum have wondered where the missing trillions have gone, and have speculated that at least part of it is being used to address the UFO issue. What is needed at this point is additional evidence as well as perhaps a credible whistleblower to substantiate this speculation. If Rumsfield made this statement multiple times, I assume it was with the blessing to GHWB, who probably had the best visibility into secret programs of any President in recent history. What was Rumsfield's (and GHWB's) purpose in disclosing the missing trillions on multiple occasions? What are they trying to tell us, if anything? Why agitate that hornet's nest, unless you are merely trying to pass the buck of fiscal irresponsibility to prior administrations? Quite odd.

I have always wondered about the speculation surrounding the Denver Airport -- strange apocalyptic paintings (by a Mayan painter) in the public concourse and rumored underground living & storage areas. Does anyone have any views on this? Check out some of the videos on YouTube.

 

[AdamI]

A number of people on this Forum have wondered where the missing trillions have gone, and have speculated that at least part of it is being used to address the UFO issue. What is needed at this point is additional evidence as well as perhaps a credible whistleblower to substantiate this speculation. If Rumsfield made this statement multiple times, I assume it was with the blessing to GHWB, who probably had the best visibility into secret programs of any President in recent history. What was Rumsfield's (and GHWB's) purpose in disclosing the missing trillions on multiple occasions? What are they trying to tell us, if anything? Why agitate that hornet's nest, unless you are merely trying to pass the buck of fiscal irresponsibility to prior administrations? Quite odd.

I have always wondered about the speculation surrounding the Denver Airport -- strange apocalyptic paintings (by a Mayan painter) in the public concourse and rumored underground living & storage areas. Does anyone have any views on this? Check out some of the videos on YouTube.

I'm sure it's going somewhere. It could well be going to multiple places: illegal black ops, just lining peoples' pockets, secretly propping up financial markets to maintain CONfidence in the economy, bribes and transfer payments to foreign dictators and organizations, bribing foreign leaders to keep pumping the oil in our direction, who knows...

But could some of it be going to address issues related to the UFO subject? Sure!

Yeah, I've seen the Denver airport stuff. That's part of a much larger subject: the prevalence all over the place of a lot of truly bizarre symbolism. It sometimes seems as if some of our leaders have secret beliefs... beliefs that they take very seriously but do not overtly speak of. I'm not totally convinced of this, but it's something that seems possible given some of the symbolism that you see around. You should look up Christopher Knowles and listen to some of his interviews... he talks about this a lot. I've recommended him as a guest on the Paracast a number of times. The problem with most discussion of occult symbolism is that it tends to come from Christian fundamentalists... Chris is great in that he avoids that point of view and tries to look at it objectively.

Just as the Paracast has tried to systematically explore the ETH and the CTH, I'd love to see some exploration of the PPH. Could there really be an off-the-books branch of our own civilization with off-the-books technology and maybe even off-the-books scientific knowledge? Is that socially possible? Are there any historical precedents for such a thing? Is there any evidence of it other than rumors, missing trillions, and strange craft seen in the skies every once in a while?

Suggested guests for that: Nick Pope, Nick Redfern, Paul Kimball, and Joseph Farrell. The latter is in my grey basket, but I'd love to see him interviewed. Go and find his interview on Radio Misterioso. He says some fascinating things. But some of his background is questionable, and he's been involved with some questionable people. I've suggested him as a guest before, and I'd love to see him get interviewed and also asked some skeptical questions. Nick Pope would be good since Farrell cites him quite often as a source. Throw Christopher O'Brien in there too just because he tends to keep things fun.

 

[ArchieBedford]

I'd love to see some exploration of the PPH. Could there really be an off-the-books branch of our own civilization with off-the-books technology and maybe even off-the-books scientific knowledge? Is that socially possible? Are there any historical precedents for such a thing? Is there any evidence of it other than rumors, missing trillions, and strange craft seen in the skies every once in a while? Suggested guests for that: Nick Pope, Nick Redfern, Paul Kimball, and Joseph Farrell.

People like Tim Good and Richard Dolan are more deeply involved with this question certainly than Nick Pope. Rich claims that developments from ET technology have been privatised to develop in turn what is effectively a hidden underground breakaway society, and Tim claims from inside sources that forces within the US military are in control of the tech and internationally recognised to be so by other first world governments and armed forces. Tim in particular seems to have some genuine inside contacts after being at the top table of credible independent researchers for 25 years and having been invited to The Pentagon on a number of occasions, and as Paul Kimball pointed out in the opening post of this thread, Rich Dolan has a lot of people who insist on anonymity contact him with information for his books which leads in this direction.

Why Nick Pope? I know Nick quite well and although he does have knowledge of the abduction and cattle mutilation phenomena beyond what he normally discusses in the public domain he doesn't hold with the secret government stuff much - on the contrary. Nick Redfern? Hmmmm.

---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 AM ----------

I have always wondered about the speculation surrounding the Denver Airport -- strange apocalyptic paintings (by a Mayan painter) in the public concourse and rumored underground living & storage areas. Does anyone have any views on this? Check out some of the videos on YouTube.

I've been to Denver Airport a number of times and will be there again next week. The CT speculation mainly surrounds Leo Tanguma's work, much of which is on public display in different parts of the airport. Tanguma claims this speculation makes him laugh, as those who commissioned him to do some paintings for display at Denver gave no instructions about content and had no idea in advance what he'd produce, but the images are just created out of his imagination and are his own personal thing. This is probably true.

---------- Post added at 01:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 AM ----------

Yeah, I've seen the Denver airport stuff. That's part of a much larger subject: the prevalence all over the place of a lot of truly bizarre symbolism. It sometimes seems as if some of our leaders have secret beliefs... beliefs that they take very seriously but do not overtly speak of. I'm not totally convinced of this,

Me neither. Are you referring to old masonic symbolism from the middle ages, or to something else? Beware of making too much of this issue: that way lie delusion and insanity (Alex Jones, the Lord of Ignorance himself, off the deep end into a paranoid fantasy psychosis...)

 

[Kieran]

Adam, IF PPH does exist and the term already exists here unfortunately Adam, it stands for "Paranormal Phenomenon hypothesis" But if i was to guess, i believe it could exist in a limited way, a small number of people with vast resources at their disposal, however calling it a civilization might be pushing it a bit. Personally i don't think it exists however in how you depict it, but there could be a base or couple of bases that the American public now's nothing about here, and the people involved are dealing with issues in the paranormal arena. They could in effect also have off-world Astronauts training there and they're certain craft ( not a large number_) at this locations that would have capabilities that are years ahead of what is currently seen by public eyes.

If the American's are fifty years ahead of everyone else when it comes to fighter planes and other craft, a statement attributed to have come from "Ben Rich former head of Lockheed Skunkworks. For me, i can't see why, a craft that was triangle in shape could've been build in that time-frame? I think the boomerang shape craft seen however, is more than likely is not build by us, judging the size of it, in essence it seems to me, to be beyond or capabilities?

The Triangle sightings over Belgium in the 1990's, that has always interested me, i just have this gut feeling it might be belong to us humans and i often wonder have certain eyewitnesses got confused here, their sighting of a large triangle was in fact a large boomerang and sometimes the sighting of real triangle craft was smaller than it they figured or thought when they described it?

Again i am assuming this, but in reality we have no idea. The trillion's unaccounted for were funnelled somewhere to someone to hand on to someone else. Maybe it was used to fund proxy wars or keep agents in the field for longer periods of time,"CIA paying of informants during missions abroad. They could've Armed pro-western guerilla groups in southern America during the eighties with non American weapons which cost money and also began providing them with additional funding for fighting the cause. There could be a host of reasons and places if you actually thought more about it, to and were this money went to. There is no historical precedent for such a thing ADAM, unless we figure in Area 51, which is only myth as far as evidence goes, but let us be open-minded and not discount the possibility that are might be some truth here, yet an unreachable truth.

 

[AdamI]

Good comments... I think what I was getting at though is this:

Could the "breakaway civilization" part of Dolan's hypothesis stand up minus the aliens? In other words, could we have made discoveries of such magnitude that they were swept under a large and very expensive rug, eventually giving rise to the social phenomenon of a detached in-group much like Dolan suggests?

Again, listen to Joseph Farrell on Radio Misterioso. (Google it and you'll find it... it's online at radio4all I think.) Now imagine some variation of his "off-the-books physics" scenario carried forward to today.

No aliens, but something quite similar. That's what I call the PPH, although Kieran points out that this acronym might already be in use. It's also a bit like Tonnies' CTH, but minus the crypto-species part. "They" would be a recent, elitist offshoot of our own species rather than some ancient crypto-offshoot.

I'm not saying I believe in this. Like Mac with the CTH, I'm just doing a thought experiment. But I do consider it possible if far fetched.

Could there really be off-the-books physics? I would once have totally dismissed this idea, but the more I learn about academia, industry, and society in general the more I learn how intellectually incurious and deferent to authority the majority of people are. All you'd need to do to bury some major discoveries would be:

1) Recruit the leading lights behind these discoveries, make them offers they can't refuse (along with maybe some threats), and scuttle them (or their work) away into some black need-to-know world. We know for a fact that this did go on after WWII in both the US and the USSR.

2) Use those same leading lights or perhaps other proxies that you elevate to positions of academic and intellectual authority to bury the ideas behind these discoveries publicly by putting forward deliberately and subtilely "sabotaged" versions and providing other subtile and clever intellectual disinformation. I know that in the domains that I'm familiar with (computer science, evolutionary biology, etc.) it would not be that hard for someone deeply knowledgeable in the art to sabotage a theory and lead people down the wrong path for a generation, provided you had the authority to get it into the textbooks and get your trojan-horsed version preached as gospel.

3) Control the source of scientific funding, channeling money away from the "right areas" in above-board research. In other words: dangle the carrot so as to lead the rabbits away from the garden.

4) Use disinformation to distract people from the areas in question.

5) Plant (or simply publicize) kooks in those areas, and use this to "bad-jacket" anyone with too much of an interest in these areas. Make it clear that asking too many questions will cause you to be labelled a kook, have your funding yanked, your career ruined, etc. I don't even think you'd have to manufacture your own kooks. Bullshit is an abundant renewable resource. Just use them off the shelf.

So who has the access, control of most science funding, and very deep pockets? Off the books scientific discoveries are quite possible, especially given the national security hysteria of the last century.

Given how privatized and globalized everything has become, today this black world could be global and corporate. There could be secret facilities around the world where off-the-books technologies are developed and then elements of them are slowly trickled out to the mainstream to keep the money rolling in. It's really not at all unlike what some of the priesthoods of the ancient mystery schools did... they kept the real knowledge secreted away in their guild and trickled out just a little bit to dazzle the masses.

 

[Trajanus]

It all looks very dark, but is of course possible that those behind all this missing money are actually working from the most altruistic of motives, if it is genuinely known that at least some of the "visitors" to manifest in the past 60 years do not have benign intentions for the human race.

Plenty of evidence for that, some going back to the start, in '47.

 

[ArchieBedford]

Good comments... I think what I was getting at though is this: Could the "breakaway civilization" part of Dolan's hypothesis stand up minus the aliens? In other words, could we have made discoveries of such magnitude that they were swept under a large and very expensive rug, eventually giving rise to the social phenomenon of a detached in-group much like Dolan suggests?

....There could be secret facilities around the world where off-the-books technologies are developed and then elements of them are slowly trickled out to the mainstream to keep the money rolling in. It's really not at all unlike what some of the priesthoods of the ancient mystery schools did... they kept the real knowledge secreted away in their guild and trickled out just a little bit to dazzle the masses.

Adam

You'll be accused of being a "conspiracy theorist," generally a pejorative for ignorance and paranoia. But not by me.

Something is definitely going on. Encounters with structured craft which demonstrate flight capabilities way beyond open human technologies have been reported since at least the early 1940s and possibly much further back in time - millennia maybe. Reports of the recovery of such craft were certainly in circulation in the early 1950s because they are written about in some detail in both Donald Keyhoe's second book, "Flying Saucers from Outer Space" published in 1952 where he details rumors in the mess halls of USAF bases all over the country about the Roswell/Corona crash in NM and where the recovered technology and bodies were taken, and in "Behind the Flying Saucers" by Frank Scully, published even earlier in 1950. I have original printings of both these books and there it is, in black and white, written in 1950 and in 1952: these craft have come down, the crew were non-human biological entities apparently adapted for deep-space travel, the Air Force did this and that with the debris and the bodies, names, dates, locations, witnesses.

Now this is 60 years ago. What can you do in 60 years with maybe a few hundred or a few thousand of the world's best brains, advanced non-human originated technology in your possession, secure facilities and several trillion dollars? Well, we can only imagine what you might do. Some of your speculative points above correlate closely with Terry Hansen's factual and detailed analysis of how the whole UFO subject has been managed in the public domain in his absolutely first-class work "The Missing Times," which IMO has never been bettered as a grounded, factual and non-speculative account of the process and should be required reading for anyone interested in this subject.

IMO the existence of this whole black world strongly supports rather than diminishes the ETH, when everything else is taken into account: the long history of often openly confrontational encounters especially with military pilots worldwide, reports of apparent non-human technologies in space from astronauts and cosmonauts, reported structures on The Moon and on Mars, the persistent and widespread reports of human abduction/hybridization programs and animal mutilations and apparent attempts to cover-up or sideline/ridicule them, missing trillions of dollars, secrecy, ridicule, media complicity in sidelining the issue. It's all very troubling, and to pretend there's nothing going on is to just bury your head in the sand and ignore the obvious.

 

[AdamI]

You'll be accused of being a "conspiracy theorist," generally a pejorative for ignorance and paranoia. But not by me.

"Conspiracy theorist" is a popular ad hominem dismissal these days. It's really pretty silly. People conspire all the time. If there's no such thing as conspiracies, why do we have an organized crime division of the FBI?

There are nutty conspiracy theories, yes. But there are also non-nutty ones and many that have been proven true... and many in between. I put this one in between... not totally nutty, but far fetched. Far fetched, but not impossible. Weirder things have happened.