UFOs: Reframing the Debate: Ask Robbie Graham and Robert Brandstetter

[marduk]

Sorry guys, no.

There's a reason why animals arent photosynthetic.

Some good math here using cows as a reference: How many calories could a photosynthetic humanoid Actually Get from photosynthesis? • r/SpeculativeEvolution

Turns out you're looking at only 4% of the necessary requirements for a relatively sedentary animal... that hangs out in the sun all day.

Maybe they exploit thermodynamics or something - I'd guess a fuel cell myself - but photosynthesis isn't doing it for me.

Plants don't move.

 

[mike]

Dark Roasted Blend: Impossible Plant-Animal Hybrid

Zoologger: Unique life form is half plant, half animal

So again, it does happen in nature. I see no reason why a technologically advanced species couldn't take elements from both the plant and animal worlds and use those elements in a synthetic bioform.

 

[mike]

Plant Transformation

There has been much excitement in the last few years about our ability to genetically engineer plants using the new techniques of gene isolation and insertion. Paired with standard methodologies of plant tissue culture and plant regeneration, these new techniques allow us to construct transgenic plants that contain and express a single, well-defined gene from any source - microbe, animal, or other plant species.
Animal and Plant Transformation: The Application of Transgenic Organisms in Agriculture

So we already do this ourselves, at this stage we put animal Genes in plants, but i see no reason why we couldn't do it the other way round.

I dont think we can write off the possibility a species more advanced than us could do it, especially since we see it in the natural world and are taking our first baby steps in the lab ourselves.

 

[mike]

Sorry guys, no.

There's a reason why animals arent photosynthetic.

Some good math here using cows as a reference: How many calories could a photosynthetic humanoid Actually Get from photosynthesis? • r/SpeculativeEvolution

Turns out you're looking at only 4% of the necessary requirements for a relatively sedentary animal... that hangs out in the sun all day.

Maybe they exploit thermodynamics or something - I'd guess a fuel cell myself - but photosynthesis isn't doing it for me.

Plants don't move.

But as one person there says.

Also, though, keep in mind that the way plants do photosynthesis in the real world is extraordinarily inefficient

Plants using natural photosynthesis get about 1 percent, but we are already getting 22 percent with synthetic photosynthesis.

This is comparable with photosynthetic efficiency, where light-to-chemical-energy conversion is measured. Photosynthetic organisms are able to collect about 50% of incident solar radiation, however the theoretical limit of photosynthetic efficiency is 4.6 and 6.0% for C3 and C4 plants respectively.[79] In reality, the efficiency of photosynthesis is much lower and is usually below 1%, with some exceptions such as sugarcane in tropical climate.[80] In contrast, the highest reported efficiency for artificial photosynthesis lab prototypes is 22.4%.[81

If you want to frame this in the narrow "this is how the terrestrial model works" then sure it may not work . But this should be looked at from outside the box. Could these elements be used in an artificial optimized, custom built for purpose model. ?

Another example, Spirulina is being cultivated as the "food of the future" because of its astonishing ability to synthesize high-quality complete nutriment more adequately by comparison with any other whole food.
When you take a look at spirulina’s nutritional content, you can see why it’s considered a superfood.

It’s rich in vitamin B12, iron, magnesium, beta-carotene, the healthy fat gamma-linolenic acid, and it contains all eight essential amino acids. Spirulina even contains 26 times more calcium than milk.

In fact, this superfood may be so super that NASA has conducted studies on spirulina as a potential food for space travel. When it comes to space travel, the goal is to provide astronauts with foods that are rich in nutrients but don’t take up much room. NASA found that 1 kg of spirulina had the same nutrients found in about 1,000 kg of assorted vegetables.

That autopsy might not be indicative of a bioform that converts light itself, but is simply optimized to more easily use the energy of plants.

Two things worth noting NASA used it for space missions. And i once read an alleged account in a book where an alleged ET said they eat algae grown in vats.

In terms of energy/food for long space flights that is more efficient than our current diets. Tweaking the bioform to use that energy directly rather than convert it like we do now seems optimal.

 

[Burnt State]

Fascinating how the path always turns most immediately to finding an answer. And then that path gets scrutinized in depth. In this case it strikes me that imagining about what an advanced technology would look like and how it might interact with us as tiny AI swarms of mutating technologies who can take any shape conceivable makes good sense.

But why be so ephemeral, invisible, transparent and suddenly in your face with high drama? Why not just be everywhere all the time given that the are primarily invincible up against our puny technologies. Why do they hide and also make grand, surrreal displays?

The book takes some dominant approaches towards the end of the text: don't bring any ideology (i. e. ETH) to the discussion - forget all you know and be open to many possibilities, and that the act of perceiving is an important clue as to the high strange component of the experience which is at the center of providing us the incredible diversity of crafts & occupants. Ideas about how trauma is connected to the experience and what the witness circumstance is that allows them to see such things needs much better scrutiny.

So can we just let the ETH take a back seat for a while as it's gotten us nowhere and is a theory we should be more suspicious of given all the governmental manipulation of this narrative. Across the entire text many writers suggest it's much stranger than that and we should be open to imagining other possibilities, while bringing some science and more in depth analyis to the witness experience.

 

[Burnt State]

Reading the book, mulling my thoughts. Love the quotes at the beginning, and loving Robert's essay so far at the end.

How did you connect 'Ultima Thule' with the liminal state? It roughly means 'beyond the known world' or as Shakespeare put it, 'the Unknown Country.'

It has a semiotic feel to it. A slippery vibe that is quite contextual.

No questions so far, except about how the book actually came together - can you describe the process and the thinking?

If you listen to the Radio Mistetioso episode and this Paracast episode you'll hear Robbie explain the genesis of this book.

Yeah I like the quotes at the start as well. Robbie came at it from a strong academic approach and put out a very detailed call to writers to answer some specific points in order to reframe the discussion on UFO's. He also encouraged conflicting and synthesized viewpoints. It's a well ordered text in terms of reading it start to finish. Ideas conflict back and forth in the first third, then the frame widens and ultimately evolves across the rest into synthesis pieces. It's a privilege to be in this book with such writers. It's a good read for anyone no matter what your take is on UFO's. It will both confirm and challenge the reader.

Ultima Thule came to me in thinking about the witness experience as something that happens at the edges of our biological capacities. The up close encounter experience is often described as being in another realm. It reminded me what was scribbled on maps of old...."Here there be monsters." And that is the liminal state is it not - a place beyond borders, taking place at the edges of our minds? One major theme in the book is about the role of chaos, anarchy, creativity, madness and irationality in the UFO experience.

But it is slippery is it not? As slippery to the mind as any close encounter case is to the witness. These are not easy spaces to reconcile. Both you and mike on other threads spoke about just how radically maddening the experience was. So Ultima Thule it is.

 

[mike]

So can we just let the ETH take a back seat for a while

The things being discussed don't necessarily need to invoke the ETH though.

Indeed its also compatible with the "We are you from the future" scenario a phrase that funnily enough has been reported as part of the narrative.

Mind uploading and synthetic intelligence: we are working on it now with some real success including "reading" brains and displaying the results on machines

Mind-Reading Computer Instantly Decodes People's Thoughts

Psychic computer that could plug into brain and show thoughts on screen is developed | Daily Mail Online

Synthetic biology:

"Synthetic biology is a maturing scientific discipline that combines science and engineering in order to design and build novel biological functions and systems. This includes the design and construction of new biological parts, devices, and systems (e.g., tumor-seeking microbes for cancer treatment), as well as the re-design of existing, natural biological systems for useful purposes (e.g., photosynthetic systems to produce energy)."

"Synthetic biology is the engineering of biology: the synthesis of complex, biologically based (or inspired) systems which display functions that do not exist in nature. This engineering perspective may be applied at all levels of the hierarchy of biological structures – from individual molecules to whole cells, tissues and organisms. In essence, synthetic biology will enable the design of ‘biological systems’ in a rational and systematic way."

What is Synthetic Biology? - Synthetic Biology Project

Time travel:

Wormhole Is Best Bet for Time Machine, Astrophysicist Says

Physicists Send Particles Of Light Into The Past, Proving Time Travel Is Possible?

So the idea the subjects of that alleged autopsy might be the artificial waldo's driven by synthetic intelligence and or the uploaded minds of biological intelligence.
Optimized for energy efficiency and built by nano-probes sent back in time via a wormhole isn't entirely impossible when you look at current technological progress.

And again to make the point, the very idea this could be what UFO's are about, Simply could not have been expressed with the technology we had 50 years ago.

Ive long had the view our own technological advance will provide the answers one day. Looking at what we can do, extrapolating where that might go as we refine it, might hold the key.

 

[marduk]

The things being discussed don't necessarily need to invoke the ETH though.

Indeed its also compatible with the "We are you from the future" scenario a phrase that funnily enough has been reported as part of the narrative.

Mind uploading and synthetic intelligence: we are working on it now with some real success including "reading" brains and displaying the results on machines

Mind-Reading Computer Instantly Decodes People's Thoughts

Psychic computer that could plug into brain and show thoughts on screen is developed | Daily Mail Online

Synthetic biology:

"Synthetic biology is a maturing scientific discipline that combines science and engineering in order to design and build novel biological functions and systems. This includes the design and construction of new biological parts, devices, and systems (e.g., tumor-seeking microbes for cancer treatment), as well as the re-design of existing, natural biological systems for useful purposes (e.g., photosynthetic systems to produce energy)."

"Synthetic biology is the engineering of biology: the synthesis of complex, biologically based (or inspired) systems which display functions that do not exist in nature. This engineering perspective may be applied at all levels of the hierarchy of biological structures – from individual molecules to whole cells, tissues and organisms. In essence, synthetic biology will enable the design of ‘biological systems’ in a rational and systematic way."

What is Synthetic Biology? - Synthetic Biology Project

Time travel:

Wormhole Is Best Bet for Time Machine, Astrophysicist Says

Physicists Send Particles Of Light Into The Past, Proving Time Travel Is Possible?

So the idea the subjects of that alleged autopsy might be the artificial waldo's driven by synthetic intelligence and or the uploaded minds of biological intelligence.
Optimized for energy efficiency and built by nano-probes sent back in time via a wormhole isn't entirely impossible when you look at current technological progress.

And again to make the point, the very idea this could be what UFO's are about, Simply could not have been expressed with the technology we had 50 years ago.

Ive long had the view our own technological advance will provide the answers one day. Looking at what we can do, extrapolating where that might go as we refine it, might hold the key.

I'm thinking more Von Neumann machines.

I mean, they are a mathematical likelihood. Almost an inevitability.

To Randal's point, maybe they're just bored, insane, or have goals so tangential to our existence as to be inscrutable.

 

[mike]

Old article, And i can't find much more than reprints of the original, but for what its worth.

http://www.ufointernationalproject....ating-alien-probes-are-already-in-our-galaxy/