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UFOS: the Research, the Evidence.

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Hey There Ramjet:

Thanks for posting the falcon rocket launch. You can see the dark spots at first and then the rocket speeds across the field of view, not directly away. If the object the other video were a rocket heading directly away from the camera and radar, there would be only a point for the radar to bounce off of and it would be obscured by the hot exhaust. This would explain the radar problems and possibly even the dark spots. Plus the object in the other video seemed farther away, obscuring it even more. To me this new example tends to lend support to the rocket possibility rather than detract from it. But I definitely gotta hand it to you on finding that falcon video to make a comparison with.
Hi ufology –

…the Nellis object is not travelling directly away from the camera. It has some lateral (left to right) movement and then angles upward (and on reviewing the video you are right I think in that any “jerky” side-to-side motions of the object are probably due to camera movement). But, given the lateral motion, if it were a rocket, then an exhaust trail should be apparent. Also we have to consider what the operators are saying: They don’t know what the object is. Surely they would be familiar with a rocket launch…

Regarding performance characteristics of UFOs. We are talking about instant high-speed high-angle turns, dead stops from high-speeds and instant acceleration to hypersonic speeds. Those kinds of maneuvers aren't conventional, not that UFOs are obligated to present them, only that when such maneuvers are performed, it becomes really obvious as opposed to ambiguous.
As I understand it, what you are saying here is that some UFOs are capable of displaying physics defying characteristics (or at the very least, characteristics that mundane technology is incapable of). So while those characteristics are not always apparent, when they are, then it is obvious that the observed UFO is not a conventional technology. But is that not an obvious point to make…

What you need to be careful of is in attempting to define all UFOs by those particular characteristics. That is, stating that it is only a UFO when those characteristics have been displayed. I firmly believe that via a process of elimination, it is possible to rule out plausible mundane explanations to leave only “UFO” (an object that defies plausible mundane explanation) even in the absence of your physics defying manoeuvres.

I think we are basically talking about the same concept anyway. It is a UFO because… it has characteristics that rule out plausible mundane explanations.

Regarding the New Definition: “an intelligent or intelligently controlled craft of alien origin”. This definition is for describing what we are trying to convey, not as something we have proven. For example if someone says, "I want to see a meteor", we all know what that is meant to convey. Similarly when we hear someone say, "I want to see a UFO", we instantly associate it with a craft of alien origin. We understand what the person means to convey, and issues of proof, or whether or not we can actually "determine the difference between a UFO and other types that do not fit that definition" aren't relevant in that context. It is far better than what we see all too often in dictionaries that simply give "Unidentified Flying Object" as the definition, when that is not really a definition at all, and leaves the door open for misrepresentation by the skeptics. It also addresses the issue of the ET assumption you mention in that the word "alien" doesn't necessitate ET.
The Oxford Dictionary has:

UFO:a mysterious object seen in the sky for which it is claimed no orthodox scientific explanation can be found, often supposed to be a vehicle carrying extraterrestrials.” (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/UFO)

My take on that (my understanding of that definition) is that a UFO is an object which defies plausible mundane explanation and that is popularly associated with ETs.

What you seem to be wanting to say is that a UFO IS unequivocally an ET vehicle. My question to you is then why? Are you (according to dictionary definitions as above) making a fallacious appeal to popularity? That is committing an argumentum ad populum? If not, so far all you have given us in support of that contention is that some UFOs perform physics defying manoeuvres. But are physics defying manoeuvres enough for us to conclude ET?

On the DC sightings I'd like to discuss the F-94 radar intercepts. Lieutenant William Patterson, a veteran of the Koren War, found his F-94 surrounded by a ring of bluish-white lights. He was not given permission to fire on them and they soon went into evasive maneuvers, instantly accelerating away beyond range. Are you aware of any official documentation on this? I found a news clipping and one Blue Book Archive document alluding to a similar chase.
I’ll do a little research and get back to you…
 
What you seem to be wanting to say is that a UFO IS unequivocally an ET vehicle. My question to you is then why? Are you (according to dictionary definitions as above) making a fallacious appeal to popularity? That is committing an argumentum ad populum? If not, so far all you have given us in support of that contention is that some UFOs perform physics defying manoeuvres. But are physics defying manoeuvres enough for us to conclude ET?


Hey there Ramjet.

All good stuff on the other comments that were snipped. Geeze it's nice to have a civil discussion for a change isn't it? On the issue of appealing to popularity as a rationale for defining the word UFO.

When it comes to defining words, one of the prime criteria for acceptance is the way in which it is popularly used to convey an idea. With the word UFO, it isn't merely popular to use it to convey the idea of an alien craft, it's overwhelmingly common, and has been ever since the word was invented to replace the phrase "flying saucer", which we both know was meant to convey an alien craft.

Then there are the detailed USAF definitions that pretty much screen out everything else anyway. It's pretty obvious that the USAF only created those convoluted definitions to dodge the politics associated with calling UFOs what they were all presuming the word meant in the first place.

It's also important to restate that establishing this definition is not the same as making any conclusion about a particular event. There is no "argumentum ad populum" in a mere definition. All kinds of things have definitions. A school bus has a distinct definition, and we might say, "Stop for the school bus up ahead", but it might turn out that the school bus is really only a billboard picture of a school bus. Either way, it makes no difference so far as what we meant to convey.

Lastly, the word alien doesn't necessitate that a UFO is ET, only that it is alien to human civilization. So again I respectfully propose that we just define UFOs as what we think they are and stop pretending we don't really think they are alien craft when it's painfully obvious that we do, and that pretty much everyone else does as well.
 
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> In the context of this thread, then a working definition of UFO is essential and you are right in insisting we come up with one – and one that represents what we mean when we say “UFO”, not what some pseudo-sceptical, debunker driven rationalisation says it should mean – to them and not to Ufologists.

I do then understand where you are coming from in proposing that we define UFOs as ET vehicles (or as representative of ET “technology” of some sort). You are right in stating that is what the public - and many Ufologists - mean when they say “UFO”.

However I can also see that UFO simply means Unidentified Flying Object and why many would insist that a UFO is an unidentified object – nothing more, nothing less.

However, let us for a moment suppose your definition (“an intelligent or intelligently controlled craft of alien origin”) stands.

The first thing to note, and what you point out, is that “alien” does not necessarily mean “ET”. The term can simply mean foreign to our understanding of the natural and technological world. But then some things follow: First, in your use of that term, are you not then moving away from your own stated goal of saying precisely what we mean in having UFOs definitively equal ET (and not merely something foreign to our understanding)? Second, if “alien origin” does not mean ET, what does it mean? That is, despite you statement that “alien” does not necessarily mean ET, when coupled with “origin”, what can it mean otherwise? Finally, how does the concept of intelligence fit in with all that?

The second thing to note is that, if we use your definition as a working definition for this thread, then in defending the Nellis video as a UFO, it seems then I am therefore tied to defending it as an ET vehicle or technology of some sort. And I am not sure that I would want to (or could practically) do that. The best I can do is apply the process of elimination to end with a claim that it defies plausible mundane explanation. Yes it is therefore “alien” (foreign) to our understanding of the natural or technological world, and I would be willing to defend that much. And yes it may therefore be an ET technology, but I could not rationally defend that conclusion. Is it intelligently controlled? I have no evidence for that. Is it an ET technology? I have no evidence for that either.

There are cases where intelligent control is noted (eg; Tehran UFO Incident (19 Sep 1976) ()*
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/IranJetCase/)) or associated beings are noted (eg; The Father Gill - Papua New Guinea UFO (26-28 Jun 1959) (http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1998/jan/gill.html) (http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case67.htm) (http://www.ufocasebook.com/gillinterview.html)), but can those cases be generalised to mean that the Nellis UFO is of ET origin – or even that the Tehran or Father Gill UFOs themselves are of ET origin?

* I am not sure I like this forum's automatic embedding of video links - I just want to post the link and not have the whacking great video displayed in the middle of my text... oh well...

I guess what I am asking of you is a justification for your definition of UFOs as ET vehicles or technology as separate from merely stating that is what we mean when we state UFO. The question is, are the Nellis, Tehran and Father Gill UFOs all of ET origin? And if you say that you believe that they are because you have defined UFO as ET, then I would still require a justification for that belief from you. If on the other hand you say that the Nellis video UFO is not an ET vehicle of some description (while the Tehran and father Gill UFOs are – or some other combination of that…), then again, I would require a justification from you in each case.

I know what you are attempting to do – and that is to have us move away from the irrational fear of stating what we believe to be generally true – that UFOs represent ETs – but that is a different thing entirely than requiring us to use that as a working definition for ALL UFOs.

I believe, as a working definition, the Oxford Dictionary has it about right: “a mysterious object seen in the sky for which it is claimed no orthodox scientific explanation can be found, often supposed to be a vehicle carrying extraterrestrials.

My general objections to this is that sometimes they are not flying and sometimes they may not be literally “carrying” ET – but the general thrust of it is right. I would however rephrase it:

A UFO is a mysterious object for which it is claimed no plausible mundane explanation exists, popularly supposed to be of ET origin.

Your definition: A UFO is “an intelligent or intelligently controlled craft of alien originis just too categorical and somewhat ambiguous for me. It may be what many mean by “UFO”, but as a working definition, I believe it misses the mark. That is, for me personally it does miss the mark - and thus I want you to try and convince me that your definition is one that I should use and why my own conceptualisation may fall short in your opinion.

And yes … it is refreshing to be able to have a civil debate about these subjects without any disagreement being taken as a direct attack on personal integrity or intelligence. I respect your integrity, intelligence and beliefs – but I do want you to try and expand on your thoughts in this regard in light of my own comments here… :)
 
A quick post just to add a UFO is exactly that, until it is identified, i am not one for redefinitions, it is unequivocal to me.

Unidentified flying object = UFO = Unidentified flying object
 
Your definition: A UFO is “an intelligent or intelligently controlled craft of alien originis just too categorical and somewhat ambiguous for me. It may be what many mean by “UFO”, but as a working definition, I believe it misses the mark. That is, for me personally it does miss the mark - and thus I want you to try and convince me that your definition is one that I should use and why my own conceptualisation may fall short in your opinion.


OK ... perhaps we should consider those issues.

My use of the phrasing "intelligent or intelligently controlled" is meant to convey the possibility of both piloted and automated craft and assumes that the automation of such craft would be of necessity intelligent enough to carry out fairly complex tasks under its own direction.

My use of the phrasing "craft of alien origin" is meant to convey the possibility of any number of hypotheses other than the craft are in-fact part of human civilization. Unidentified craft made by humans are better classed as secret human technology. The importance here is that even assuming an identical technology, the word UFO distinguishes alien craft from human craft.

What might you suggest that we change in the definition to accomodate the above and your concerns without convoluting it into something unworthy of inclusion in both standard dictionaries and ufology studies? What specifics makes it both too categorical and too ambiguous at the same time? Why is that necessaily a bad thing?

---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

A quick post just to add a UFO is exactly that, until it is identified, i am not one for redefinitions, it is unequivocal to me.

Unidentified flying object = UFO = Unidentified flying object


Simply identifiying the words in an acronym is not a definition. The acronym itself still needs to be defined within its context of usage for it to make any sense. For example CPU stands for Central Processing Unit ... so what? It could mean a computer processor, or the main mail sorting room, or some central intake office for refugees. Until you establish an in context definition, you have not defined the word, e.g. CPU: Central Processing Unit "the part of a computer that performs operations and executes software commands".

The problem with the word UFO is that the people who created it ( USAF ) did not define simply, and there was more than one version. Then came definitions by ufology experts such as Hynek. Then there are multiple common dictionary definitions. So what I'm proposing is to establish a common definition that works in a wide variety of contexts.
 
I dont care for individual redefinitions ufology, it has always been crystal clear to me.

Unidentified flying object = UFO = Unidentified flying object

Take a poll here and see what others definitions are, dont turn this thread into a semantical ramble, ufo means unknown, this thread is about discussing the evidence for known/unknown phenomena, lets do just that.

looks like the 3 of us have all the time in the world to do that here, without the bs of jref, so i understand that UFO represents to you alien technology, most of the timeyou use the acronym, to rammy it means alien to our current understanding.
And you know my definition, so lets crack on.
 
Great thread! The plethora of expert analysis here has left my head spinning.

Is there a percentage of genuine unknowns over the last 50 or so years that we could consensually agree upon as a minimum? It seems we can remain skeptical/conservative in our criteria and still present a minimum figure large enough to make a compelling case for very unconventional phenomena.

I'm probably repeating previous observations. But a few points here stand out for me:

-much of the best data gathering and crunching was done (publicly anyhow) in an historical era plagued by cold war concerns for national security. It seems this would enhance credibility estimates of military and ex-military personnel mindful of the importance of what was taking place in our skies. This might work both ways for civilians--increasing serious scrutiny while enhancing imagination. But again, many of the best civilian reports were from individuals whose livelihoods were connected to the defense establishment.

-I think USI's point (If I understand correctly) that pilots, especially military, might tend to ascribe high strangeness observations to conventional causes to avoid penalties for indiscretion or error, is a valid one. We have no way of knowing what pilots may have said in debriefing vs publicly. I also think we are justified in mistrusting available documentation re debriefings. I'm trying to recall what Hynek's take on the statistical relationships between witness reliability and high strangeness. I believe he found the correlation to be surprisingly positive. This is, no doubt, presented in graphic format and I have missed it.

-On comparing 'old' with newer data: I think what we have from about 1947 through the mid 1960's may be the most valid at our disposal. It would be difficult to explain away the '52 flap as mass hysteria. I say this in light of the credibility and number of first hand accounts, And also the seriousness with which ufos were taken by a seemingly reluctant government. One gets the impression that the sheer number of credible cases pouring in was simply more than those in authority could afford to ignore. The later Condon whitewash supports this notion.
 
Again, note the time on the Nellis video. 23:20 ( 11:30 PM ). It must have been a night shot. The sensors for those kinds of cameras could make the rocket exhaust flare look like those points that give it the odd shape, and it would explain the fuzzy edges. The rocket would need to be heading downrange almost directly away from the camera, and if that were the case, the super hot rocket exhaust trail might cause issues with RADAR. Additionally, we're not seeing any performance characteristics indicative of a UFO.

The apparent sudden movements seem to be more because of the camera than the object. It's probably a genuine video of something, but is it a UFO ( as defined )? No, it's not. It's an unidentified airborne object ... that's about all we can say ... I think?

When we're done with this one I'd like to revisit an old case that everyone thinks is boring ... The DC sightings in 1952. I used to think they weren't worth discussing because I'd seen the famous lens flare photo and it made sense. Then I revisited it some years later and realized it was the same incident in Ruppelt's book and found some interesting clips. It's a convoluted case, but ultimately there is a major mystery there ... especially with the F-94 pursuits ... and one in particular.


Updated Definition of UFO

The UFO interest group USI ( www.ufopages.com ) has proposed a new definition of ufology that moves away from early USAF definitions that define UFOs by what they are not, to a modern definition based on what we think they are. Detailed rationale for the new definition can be found on the USI website under the link for UFO: The basic rationale is as follows:
  1. The USAF only created the word UFO to replace the term flying saucers, which were deemed to have been alien craft. Consequently the official USAF definition of UFO is only a euphemisim for alien craft anyway.
  2. The most refined official USAF definition was AFR 200-2, Feb 05, 1958. It provides guidelines for screening out known natural and manmade objects from UFOs. If the objects aren't manmade or natural, what are they? Again we are left with the conclusion that unless they are hoaxes or hallucinations, they must be alien.
  3. UFOs have become deeply embedded in modern culture and the overwhelming number of portrayals and interpretations are not of mundane objects, but of alien craft.
  4. UFOs have become deeply embedded in our moder psyche. When someone says they saw a UFO, the imagery we see in our minds and the assumptions we make before we begin any analysis are that the person is talking about an alien craft.
  5. Alternate definitions that have been attempted in the past have proven pointless, and newer terms like UAP do not address what we are talking about. We aren't merely talking about anomalous objects and we shouldn't need to be reserved or aplologetic about what we're interested in. To use a favorite catch phrase of Stanton Friedman, why be apologist ufologists. Let's just tell it like it is.
Updated Definition:

UFO or ufo

<DD>U • F • O ( plural UFOs ) or yoo-foe ( plural ufos ) noun

1. an intelligent or intelligently controlled craft of alien origin.
2. the unidentified object or phenomena that is the focus of a UFO report or investigation.

[ Mid-20[SUP]th[/SUP] century (1951). Originally an acronym formed from unidentified flying object. ]


</DD>

Hey, I like virtually all of that except the use of the word "ALIEN". I am confident that YOU do not mean ETs from other planets when you say 'Alien'. They could be time-travelers, Interdimensionals or an altered state of consciousness or whatever BUT the general public will still think that you mean ET's from other planets. But I really enjoyed reading what you said... its very close to my own line of thinking. Even my way of wording it... UNKNOWN INTELLIGENTLY CONTROLLED CRAFT still sometimes gets the response of "You mean ET's"? so its an extremely difficult assumption to overcome.
 
A quick post just to add a UFO is exactly that, until it is identified, i am not one for redefinitions, it is unequivocal to me.

Unidentified flying object = UFO = Unidentified flying object
Yes, agreed, but the problem (or as USI’s ufology would have it – the solution!) is that “UFO”, rightly or wrongly, has become associated with “ET”. So when someone says “UFO”, everybody automatically assumes “Oh, you mean ET”.

USI’s ufology basically says we should just accept that and turn it to advantage by positively embracing it - because that IS what most of us mean anyway.

I on the other hand am inclined to the opposite - and to move to divorce “UFO” from “ET” - because basically I believe UFOs represent a range of phenomena – one of which may be ET – but not necessarily so in all cases.

So yes, I am with you in that the “U” in UFO simply means Unidentified, but I am also mindful of the popular “baggage” (the immediate association with ET) the term carries.

OK ... perhaps we should consider those issues.

My use of the phrasing "intelligent or intelligently controlled" is meant to convey the possibility of both piloted and automated craft and assumes that the automation of such craft would be of necessity intelligent enough to carry out fairly complex tasks under its own direction.

My use of the phrasing "craft of alien origin" is meant to convey the possibility of any number of hypotheses other than the craft are in-fact part of human civilization. Unidentified craft made by humans are better classed as secret human technology. The importance here is that even assuming an identical technology, the word UFO distinguishes alien craft from human craft.

What might you suggest that we change in the definition to accomodate the above and your concerns without convoluting it into something unworthy of inclusion in both standard dictionaries and ufology studies? What specifics makes it both too categorical and too ambiguous at the same time? Why is that necessaily a bad thing?
First, “intelligent or intelligently controlled" may be what you believe UFOs to be, but to require it as part of a general definition of UFOs which we all must utilise when we talk about UFOs, in my opinion, is unwarranted. Some UFOs may be intelligently controlled, but that does not mean all UFOs are…

Second, anything human or of this earth is properly classified as “mundane” (secret technology included). If something is not mundane, then practically, by definition, it is extraterrestrial – strictly meaning of or from outside the earth or its atmosphere (thus covering your "craft of alien origin"). Also a UFO might not necessarily be a “craft” – or indeed, come to that, an “object”. Perhaps then I can reword my definition…

A UFO is a mysterious phenomenon, most often perceived as a flying object, for which it is claimed no plausible mundane explanation exists, and popularly supposed to be of extraterrestrial origin.

That definition seems to accommodate all your concerns as well as being able to be general enough to apply to all UFOs – that is, as you required, “ a common definition that works in a wide variety of contexts”. I would be very interested to know your thoughts on that definition.

I dont care for individual redefinitions ufology, it has always been crystal clear to me.

Unidentified flying object = UFO = Unidentified flying object

Take a poll here and see what others definitions are, dont turn this thread into a semantical ramble, ufo means unknown, this thread is about discussing the evidence for known/unknown phenomena, lets do just that.
I generally agree that we should not get bogged down in a semantic discussion of what UFO means. However, it is important to air people’s concerns in this regard. It is a contentious issues in ufological and debunker circles and does require some teasing out of the issues. If only so that each of us knows - and can be crystal clear about when challenged - what we (ourselves) and also what others mean when they use the term “UFO”. It is an important and useful exercise, but you are right in that we should not become bogged down in it.

Great thread! The plethora of expert analysis here has left my head spinning.

Is there a percentage of genuine unknowns over the last 50 or so years that we could consensually agree upon as a minimum? It seems we can remain skeptical/conservative in our criteria and still present a minimum figure large enough to make a compelling case for very unconventional phenomena.

Thanks, boomerang … According to the Battelle study (http://www.ufocasebook.com/pdf/specialreport14.pdf), that figure is about 21%. This also fits in with research suggesting that the misidentification of mundane objects by various sections of the population ranges between about 50% and 90% (http://www.scribd.com/doc/43531895/J-Allen-Hynek-The-Hynek-UFO-Report-1977, p. 271) (with the hoax/psychological between 1-2%).

The 21% figure is of course a much larger figure than the “received wisdom” of 5% commonly bandied about. But that 5% figure has absolutely no basis in research. So given that the research that has been conducted shows about 20%, then that is the figure I use.

Also, did you know that in the Condon Report, 33% of the cases discussed and assessed remained “unknown”. Here is some information on the Condon report:

The Condon Report (1969)
(http://ncas.org/condon/)
Project coordinator Low’s infamous “Trick Memo”
(http://www.nicap.org/docs/660809lowmemo.htm)
Fuller (14 May 1969) Flying Saucer Fiasco
(http://www.project1947.com/shg/articles/fiasco.html)
NICAP (Jan 1969) The Truth about the Condon Report
(http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm)
National Academy of Sciences (6 Jan 1969) Review of the University of Colorado Report on Unidentified Flying Objects
(http://www.project1947.com/shg/articles/nascu.html)
Hynek (Apr 1969) The Condon Report and UFOs
(http://www.project1947.com/shg/articles/bas1.html)
Condon (26 Apr 1969) UFO’s I Have Loved and Lost (p.425)
(http://books.google.com.au/books?id...=onepage&q=UFOs I have Loved and Lost&f=false)
Daniels (1969) The Condon Report: A Whitewash
(http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_condonreport04.htm)
Page (Oct 1969) Review of the "Condon Report"
(http://www.cufon.org/cufon/tp_revue.htm)
Klass (1986) The Condon UFO Study: A Trick or a Conspiracy?
(http://www.project1947.com/shg/articles/siklass.html)
Sturrock (1987) An Analysis of the Condon Report
(http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_01_1_sturrock_2.pdf)
Hoyt (20 Apr 2000) UFOs, Social Intelligence, and the Condon Committee
(http://ufos.homestead.com/ufocritique.pdf)
 
Yes, agreed, but the problem (or as USI’s ufology would have it – the solution!) is that “UFO”, rightly or wrongly, has become associated with “ET”. So when someone says “UFO”, everybody automatically assumes “Oh, you mean ET”.

USI’s ufology basically says we should just accept that and turn it to advantage by positively embracing it - because that IS what most of us mean anyway.

I on the other hand am inclined to the opposite - and to move to divorce “UFO” from “ET” - because basically I believe UFOs represent a range of phenomena – one of which may be ET – but not necessarily so in all cases.

So yes, I am with you in that the “U” in UFO simply means Unidentified, but I am also mindful of the popular “baggage” (the immediate association with ET) the term carries.

First, “intelligent or intelligently controlled" may be what you believe UFOs to be, but to require it as part of a general definition of UFOs which we all must utilise when we talk about UFOs, in my opinion, is unwarranted. Some UFOs may be intelligently controlled, but that does not mean all UFOs are…

Second, anything human or of this earth is properly classified as “mundane” (secret technology included). If something is not mundane, then practically, by definition, it is extraterrestrial – strictly meaning of or from outside the earth or its atmosphere (thus covering your "craft of alien origin"). Also a UFO might not necessarily be a “craft” – or indeed, come to that, an “object”. Perhaps then I can reword my definition…

A UFO is a mysterious phenomenon, most often perceived as a flying object, for which it is claimed no plausible mundane explanation exists, and popularly supposed to be of extraterrestrial origin.

That definition seems to accommodate all your concerns as well as being able to be general enough to apply to all UFOs – that is, as you required, “ a common definition that works in a wide variety of contexts”. I would be very interested to know your thoughts on that definition.

I generally agree that we should not get bogged down in a semantic discussion of what UFO means. However, it is important to air people’s concerns in this regard. It is a contentious issues in ufological and debunker circles and does require some teasing out of the issues. If only so that each of us knows - and can be crystal clear about when challenged - what we (ourselves) and also what others mean when they use the term “UFO”. It is an important and useful exercise, but you are right in that we should not become bogged down in it.


Ramjet:

Thanks again for your comments. I realize that nailing down a definition for UFO that is clean, concise and accurate is tedious for some. But the issue has been a thorn in the side of ufologists ever since it was created, and the skeptics constantly misrepresent it by citing the word origin rather than the definition, the word origin being "unidentified flying object". However that is not what the word itself means.

On the issue of "divorcing UFO from ET", again I point out that the word "alien" does not necessitate "ET".

On the "range of phenomena" issue, we are not dealing with a wide range of phenomena. For a range of phenomena possibly including but not necessarily including UFOs, we have adpted the acronym UAP ( unidendified aerial phenomena ), created by NARCAP. UFOs on the other hand are craft.

On the issue of intelligence. If we assume the craft are being flown, the craft are either intellent or intelligently controlled. However I suppose that it is possible that we could run into a third option if the craft were not being flown ... but were landed and unattended. Coneceivably the craft could be a machine with no intelligence. What do we say then? We might say that it is still fair to class it as intelligently controlled because that is how it was intended to be flown ( by an intelligent being ). Or perhaps we could add "intelligently designed" to the definition. Lastly we are not interested in non-craft such as strange meteors or whatever. Again those would be classed as UAPs.

On the use of "mysterious phenomenon". This is too vague. This would fall under UAP. When we hear the word UFO we instantly associate it with a flying saucer or alien craft and that is what we're really interested in anyway.

In the end I suppose we could simply narrow the whole thing down to:

UFO: craft of alien origin.
 
Ramjet:

Thanks again for your comments. I realize that nailing down a definition for UFO that is clean, concise and accurate is tedious for some. But the issue has been a thorn in the side of ufologists ever since it was created, and the skeptics constantly misrepresent it by citing the word origin rather than the definition, the word origin being "unidentified flying object". However that is not what the word itself means.
If we are being pedantic, then we should use language and meaning correctly.

UFO is an acronym (not a word). It means by definition “Unidentified Flying Object” – nothing more, nothing less.

The acronym (UFO) has however come to be popularly associated with “extraterrestrials”, that is, in the modern context, little grey men with black almond shaped eyes (the “greys”) piloting saucer-shaped craft and who have a tendency to abduct people. Mention “UFO” to a person on the street and that is the image that will most likely be conjured in their minds.

In the face of that popular conceptualisation (or misconceptualisation), it is then quite in order for anyone (including debunkers and sceptics alike) to point out that the “U” in UFO simply stands for Unidentified, nothing more, nothing less.

However, given that the mysterious observed “objects” are not and have not actually been identified - people are then free to believe anything they want about them. That is, people are free to speculate about - or to hypothesise explanations regarding - what UFOs could actually be.

Some say they are misidentified mundane objects - or hoaxes, others say they are secret (black budget) technology, others say they are ET craft, some say they are a manifestation of a Jungian collective unconscious, others interdimensional beings, still others an undiscovered natural phenomena, etc and so on.

However, whatever you believe UFOs are, if questioned, you need to be able to justify your belief. You need to be able to provide a rationale for coming to the belief you have about UFOs – otherwise you will simply be accused of holding a faith-based belief that might as well be (is indistinguishable from) a religion (and from there it is but a short step to the accusation of membership of a “cult”).

In the end I suppose we could simply narrow the whole thing down to:

UFO: craft of alien origin.
So that is your belief about what UFOs are. It is a personal opinion. An opinion by the way which you have not justified to us.

In effect what you are actually doing is attempting to get your personal opinion about what UFOs are accepted by everyone by slipping it in under the guise of a definition. There is absolutely no difference between that and me stating that the definition of a UFO is “a misidentified mundane object”. You say “craft of alien origin”, I say “a misidentified mundane object” – yet neither is a definition – merely a personal belief about what UFOs are.

Strictly speaking then, a UFO could be anything at all, from a material object to an ephemeral phenomenon, from the mundane to the extraterrestrial, from a hoax to little grey men … all hypothetical explanations for UFOs. However, as intimated above, whatever your belief about UFOs is, you should be able to justify that belief. Your belief about UFOs should at least be a plausible belief that is based on the evidence.

Finally, if your belief about UFOs is ever proved (by the evidence) to be correct, then (and only then) will you belief (at least potentially) become definitional – but interestingly, despite that, we would still have UFOs! That is, if the ET connection is proved, you would be able to state that some “objects” observed in the sky are of ET origin. But of course they would no longer be UFOs – because they would have been identified (as ET craft). The trick would then be to come up with a set of characteristics that would distinguish ET craft from UFOs – much as we can distinguish airplanes from UFOs (or balloons or satellites, etc). That is, if it has the definitive characteristics of an airplane, then Occam’s razor would suggest it is an airplane. If it has the definitive characteristics of an ET craft, then…

So …you believe, as far as I can tell, that UFOs are ET craft. You then need to provide us with two things in that regard: First, a justification for that belief (what is the evidence on which you base that belief?) and second, a set of characteristics that will allow us to distinguish your ET craft from other objects that may be observed in the sky.

The definition of UFO is simply an unidentified flying object (nothing more, nothing less), where for purposes of popular meaning (an explanation of what the community thinks of when the acronym “UFO” is mentioned) we can add that it is an unidentified flying object for which it is claimed no plausible mundane explanation exists, popularly associated with extraterrestrials.

So what I, and I suspect many others who are now reading this thread would like to see from you ufology, is a justification for your belief (the evidence you have for UFOs as ET craft) and a definitive set of characteristics that would allow us to distinguish ET craft from other objects in the sky. That is the challenge that is now before you.
 
If we are being pedantic, then we should use language and meaning correctly.

UFO is an acronym (not a word). It means by definition “Unidentified Flying Object” – nothing more, nothing less.

Actually the word UFO is technically correct as an acronym and a word. Indeed the definition of "acronym" is, "a word formed from the initials or other parts of several words" ( Encarta ). It is also a noun ( and nouns are words ). The word pronounciation is "yoo-foe". This is not only the way it was meant to be pronounced by its creator, but was also popularized by the classic television series UFO.

It is also a misnomer that the word has the same literal interpretation of meaning as the individual words that makeup the word origin. The word origin is not the same as the definition. This is abundantly apparent when we go back and examine the development of official USAF defintions, the most detailed being AFR 200-2 Feb. 05 1958. Then there is the definition used by CUFOS, which was formed by the late J. Allen Hynek who had worked for the USAF's UFO project. It is a misrepresentation pure and simple to portray the word UFO as simply the literal interpretation of "unidendified flying object"


However, whatever you believe UFOs are, if questioned, you need to be able to justify your belief. You need to be able to provide a rationale for coming to the belief you have about UFOs – otherwise you will simply be accused of holding a faith-based belief that might as well be (is indistinguishable from) a religion (and from there it is but a short step to the accusation of membership of a “cult”).

So that is your belief about what UFOs are. It is a personal opinion. An opinion by the way which you have not justified to us.

In effect what you are actually doing is attempting to get your personal opinion about what UFOs are accepted by everyone by slipping it in under the guise of a definition. There is absolutely no difference between that and me stating that the definition of a UFO is “a misidentified mundane object”. You say “craft of alien origin”, I say “a misidentified mundane object” – yet neither is a definition – merely a personal belief about what UFOs are.


Belief has nothing to do with establishing the definition. I thought I had made this clear already. Are you sure you aren't the impostor Ramjet we had on from the JREF. A definition is a descriptor to convey what we mean during discussion or study, nothing more. We don't have to believe unicorns or vampires exist to have definitions that give them unique descriptive meanings.


Strictly speaking then, a UFO could be anything at all, from a material object to an ephemeral phenomenon, from the mundane to the extraterrestrial, from a hoax to little grey men … all hypothetical explanations for UFOs. However, as intimated above, whatever your belief about UFOs is, you should be able to justify that belief. Your belief about UFOs should at least be a plausible belief that is based on the evidence.


Actually ... "strictly speaking" the above is completely wrong as the official USAF definitions, CUFOS definition, most dictionaries and the overwhelming common usage indicate. UFOs are understood in all these cases to be extraordinary. What you are doing here is confusing point 2 of the definition with the first part. Point 2 gives the word UFO context with respect to UFO reports.


Finally, if your belief about UFOs is ever proved (by the evidence) to be correct, then (and only then) will you belief (at least potentially) become definitional ...

My responses to the rest are the same as above. Belief and proof have nothing to do with establishing a definition. UFOs are extraordinary objects believed to be of alien origin, usually extraterrestrial, and there are two primary contexts of usage. The definition shifts from its primary meaning ( an alien craft ) when talking about the objects themselves, to references to objects in UFO reports that have yet to be investigated ( secondary point in the proposed definition ).
 
Just for snicks, I'll leave this here.



Quote:
UFO (yf-)
n. pl. UFOs or UFO's
An unidentified flying object.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/UFO


Quote:
UFO   [yoo-ef-oh or, sometimes, yoo-foh]
noun, plural UFO's, UFOs.
any unexplained moving object observed in the sky, especially one assumed by some observers to be of extraterrestrial origin.

Also called unidentified flying object.

Compare flying saucer.

Origin:
1950–55; u ( nidentified ) f ( lying ) o ( bject )

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ufo


Quote:
UFO
(yū'ĕf-ō')
n., pl., UFOs, or UFO's.
An unidentified flying object.

http://www.answers.com/topic/unidentified-flying-object


Quote:
UFO
noun pl. or
any of a number of unidentified objects or phenomena frequently reported, esp. since 1947, to have been observed or tracked in the sky and variously explained as being atmospheric phenomena, hallucinations, misperceptions of actual objects, alien spacecraft, etc.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ufo


Quote:
UFO noun \ˌyü-(ˌ)ef-ˈō\
plural UFO's or UFOs

Definition of UFO

: an unidentified flying object; especially : flying saucer

Origin of UFO

unidentified flying object

First Known Use: 1953

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ufo


Quote:
What does UFO stand for?

UFO Unidentified Flying Object

http://www.acronymfinder.com/UFO.html


Quote:
UFO (UFOs plural)

A UFO is an object seen in the sky or landing on earth which cannot be identified and which is often believed to be from another planet. UFO is an abbreviation for `unidentified flying object'.

http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-cobuild/UFO
 
Actually the word UFO is technically correct as an acronym and a word. Indeed the definition of "acronym" is, "a word formed from the initials or other parts of several words" ( Encarta ). It is also a noun ( and nouns are words ). The word pronounciation is "yoo-foe". This is not only the way it was meant to be pronounced by its creator, but was also popularized by the classic television series UFO.
The acronym UFO was coined in 1952 by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt:
I know the full story about flying saucers and I know that it has never before been told because I organized and was chief of the Air Force's Project Blue Book, the special project set up to investigate and analyze unidentified flying object, or UFO, reports. (UFO is the official term that I created to replace the words "flying saucers.")
(Ruppelt, E. J. (1956) The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. Doubleday & Company, Inc. New York. p.1)
(http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/17346)
(http://static.lulu.com/items/volume_10/199000/199898/3/print/ReportOnUFOs.pdf)
(http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/rufo/rufo03.htm#page_1)



There is no indication that Ruppelt preferred either the modern North American “yoo-foe” or the rest of the English speaking world’s “U.F.O.” If from North America you will pronounce it as a word, if from the rest of the English speaking world, you will pronounce the individual letters of the acronym.

It is also a misnomer that the word has the same literal interpretation of meaning as the individual words that makeup the word origin. The word origin is not the same as the definition.
We know Ruppelt probably meant by his term “interplanetary spaceships”:
The report has been difficult to write because it involves something that doesn't officially exist. It is well known that ever since the first flying saucer was reported in June 1947 the Air Force has officially said that there is no proof that such a thing as an interplanetary spaceship exists. But what is not well known is that this conclusion is far from being unanimous among the military and their scientific advisers because of the one word, proof; so the UFO investigations continue. (Forword)​

…and
I wouldn't class myself as a "believer," exactly, because I've seen too many UFO reports that first appeared to be unexplainable fall to pieces when they were thoroughly investigated. But every time I begin to get skeptical I think of the other reports, the many reports made by experienced pilots and radar operators, scientists, and other people who know what they're looking at. These reports were thoroughly investigated and they are still unknowns.

(…)

Maybe the final proven answer will be that all of the UFO's that have been reported are merely misidentified known objects. Or maybe the many pilots, radar specialists, generals, industrialists, scientists, and the man on the street who have told me, "I wouldn't have believed it either if I hadn't seen it myself," knew what they were talking about. Maybe the earth is being visited by interplanetary spaceships.
Only time will tell.
” (p.243)


This is abundantly apparent when we go back and examine the development of official USAF defintions, the most detailed being AFR 200-2 Feb. 05 1958.
Air Force regulation No. 200-2 States:
Unidentified Flying Objects – Any airborne object which, by performance, aerodynamic characteristics, or unusual features, does not conform to known aircraft or missiles, or which does not correspond to definitions in a and b above.” (http://www.nicap.org/directives/afr200-2_020558.pdf pp.1-2)


However, in 1949 - well before Ruppelt - Dr Allen J. Hynek had defined “flying saucer” as:
"any aerial phenomenon or sighting that remains unexplained to the viewer at least long enough for him to write a report about it. (…) Each flying saucer, so defined, has associated with it a probable lifetime. It wanders in the field of public inspection like an electron in a field of ions, until ' captured1 by an explanation which puts an end to its existence as a 'flying saucer'"
” (Hynek, J. A. (1953) Unusual Aerial Phenomena. Journal of the Optical Society of America, 43 (4), April. pp 311-314)


Then – after Ruppelt – in 1955 Battelle Study stated (in terms of “unidentified aerial objects”):
…the term "flying saucers" shall be used hereafter in this report to mean a novel, airborne phenomenon, a manifestation that is not a part of or readily explainable by the fund of scientific knowledge known to be possessed by the Free World. This would include such items as natural phenomena that are not yet completely understood, psychological phenomena, or intruder aircraft of a type that may be possessed by some source in large enough numbers so that more than one independent mission may have been flown and reported. Thus, these phenomena are of the type which should have been observed and reported more than once.” (http://www.ufocasebook.com/pdf/specialreport14.pdf p.1)


What we can note from the above is that Ruppelt merely coined the term UFO to replace “flying saucers” and that he was inclined to believe that UFOs were “interplanetary spaceships. This was not exactly a definition of the term, just what he was inclined to believe UFOs represented.

For a definition of “flying saucers” (or UFOs or UAOs, etc) we can see that the early definitions divorced the belief about what they might represent to concentrate merely on the descriptive definition - and thus to couch it in terms of an unidentified object that is not explicable in terms of current knowledge. There is no grand conspiracy or deliberate misrepresentation in any of that – it is a practical scientific expediency.

It is a misrepresentation pure and simple to portray the word UFO as simply the literal interpretation of "unidendified flying object"
I believe therefore you are incorrect in your statement here. We can see that the earliest of definitions spoke in terms of unidentified objects that are inexplicable in terms of current knowledge – and current definitions carry that through (see below).

carlitos provides a list of UFO definitions for “snicker” value – and as he is a committed UFO debunker we can understand this mocking approach from him, but of course to accurately obtain the correct information we do need to access rather more scholarly resources. The most well researched and resourced English language dictionaries define UFO as follows:

Oxford
(http://oxforddictionaries.com/)
a mysterious object seen in the sky for which it is claimed no orthodox scientific explanation can be found, often supposed to be a vehicle carrying extraterrestrials.


Cambridge
(http://dictionary.cambridge.org/)
abbreviation for unidentified flying object: an object seen in the sky which is thought to be a spacecraft from another planet


Merriam-Webster
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/)
an unidentified flying object; especially : flying saucer


Macmillan
(http://www.macmillandictionary.com/)
an unidentified flying object: a strange object that flies through the sky that no one can recognize. Some people think UFOs are a sign of life on other planets.


Collins
(http://www.collinslanguage.com/Default.aspx)
unidentified flying object


So as we can see, modern definitions include both the object as inexplicable in terms of current knowledge (a la early definitions) as well as making reference to popular beliefs concerning extraterrestrials (a la Ruppelt). I really don’t see what your real objection to modern (and historical AF) definitions is ufology…

Belief has nothing to do with establishing the definition. I thought I had made this clear already.
Clearly the modern definitions account for both scientific practicality and belief. People may believe that UFOs represent many different things (from ETs to misidentified mundane objects and anything in between) and clearly you believe (a la Ruppelt) that UFOs represent ET. However, as I pointed out, others believe differently. What gives you the right to define UFOs according to your personal opinion and yet reject other’s definitions as misrepresentative which are based on their personal opinions? No, there must be a neutral ground in which the definition does not contain a particular belief – and UFO as Unidentified Flying Object simply does that.

However, if you believe UFOs to be of ET origin, my question to you is: Can you support your believe with evidence? AND, lest you feel I am picking on you merely for your beliefs, I would ask the very same question of someone who believed UFOs to be misidentified mundane objects.

Are you sure you aren't the impostor Ramjet we had on from the JREF.
LOL.

A definition is a descriptor to convey what we mean during discussion or study, nothing more. We don't have to believe unicorns or vampires exist to have definitions that give them unique descriptive meanings.
That is comparing apples and oranges. Would you accept a definition of UFOs that began with the term “mythological”?

Actually ... "strictly speaking" the above is completely wrong as the official USAF definitions, CUFOS definition, most dictionaries and the overwhelming common usage indicate. UFOs are understood in all these cases to be extraordinary. What you are doing here is confusing point 2 of the definition with the first part. Point 2 gives the word UFO context with respect to UFO reports.
UFOs are understood to be unidentified because they have no plausible mundane explanation according to the fund of current knowledge. That is what clearly comes through from USAF etc definitions. You may then speculate or hypothesise what those unidentified objects may represent (ET, misidentified mundane objects, Jungian unconscious, time travellers, even Morlocks from the centre of the earth…) but you cannot then force those beliefs onto a definition of UFOs that is required to be used by all. There is no difference between doing that and someone else requiring that we use “time travellers” in the definition. Surely you can see that?

What you need to do is provide us with the evidence to support your beliefs about what UFOs might represent (and what characteristics of those UFOs we can use to distinguish your ET craft from other UFOs). Those are the things I have been asking you for and you seem to be ignoring my requests in that regard.

My responses to the rest are the same as above. Belief and proof have nothing to do with establishing a definition. UFOs are extraordinary objects believed to be of alien origin, usually extraterrestrial, and there are two primary contexts of usage. The definition shifts from its primary meaning ( an alien craft ) when talking about the objects themselves, to references to objects in UFO reports that have yet to be investigated ( secondary point in the proposed definition ).
You want the “primary meaning” to be ET craft. Others want the primary meaning to be “misidentified mundane objects”. I cannot accept any definition that has either as a “primary meaning”. A UFO is unidentified. If you want it to be identified (as an ET craft) then you need to show us the evidence that will allow that identification. Just the same as if someone else wanted a mundane identification, they would need to show the evidence that allows that identification. Of course, as soon as it is identified (as an ET craft or a mundane object) then it is no longer a UFO.

So ufology, please, show us the evidence and/or logical argument to support your beliefs. This thread is supposed to be about the evidence and the research. Please can we get back to that?

---------- Post added at 12:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 AM ----------

My aim in this thread is to supply evidence and research to support my contention that UFOs defy plausible mundane explanation. In the interests supporting that contention I will therefore list some cases that I believe provide the evidence. I will begin with four early cases - and if there is interest - I will progressively list some more modern cases. I would be interested in what people’s opinions are on the following cases.

The Battle of Los Angeles (25 Feb 1942)
(http://www.nicap.org/losangeldir.htm)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/battleoflosangeles.html)
(http://brumac.8k.com/BATTLEOFLA/BOLA1.html)
(http://www.rense.com/general27/battle.htm)

The Chiles-Whitted Case (24 Jul 1948 )
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case116.htm)

The Rogue River Case (24 May 1949)
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/Rogue/RogueRiver2.htm)
(http://www.nicap.org/docs/rogue490524docs3.htm)

White Sands: Twinkle, Twinkle Little Craft (April-May 1950)
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/WhiteSandsProof/WhiteSandsProof.html)
(http://www.nicap.org/ncp/ncp-brumac.htm)
(http://www.project1947.com/gfb/twinklereport.htm)
 
Wow, this thread exploded. I took time away from it to re-familiarize myself with the Battelle Study. I am about half way through that now... Ok maybe a little more than half way. But certainly not 3/4 yet. Anyway, way more being discussed now than the Battelle Study. It might take some time to get through this and then catch myself up but we may want to start opening some new threads for the various and sundry divergences. If we are going to get into some meaningful conversation and debate I want to keep it focused so we are not trying to carry 4 or 5 separate topics in one super thread.

Please feel free to open some new threads and if you would like me to move posts, let me know which ones. Otherwise I will talk it over with the other Mods and decide what to do.

That said, I don't want to kill the conversation. I just want to organize the topics with more granularity. There are a bunch of solid lines of research herein that really deserve their own space.
 
The acronym UFO was coined in 1952 by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt ...
... There is no indication that Ruppelt preferred either the modern North American “yoo-foe” or the rest of the English speaking world’s “U.F.O.” If from North America you will pronounce it as a word, if from the rest of the English speaking world, you will pronounce the individual letters of the acronym ...


Hey Rramjet:

From The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects - Ruppelt:

"Obviously the term "flying saucer" is misleading when applied to objects of every conceivable shape and performance. For this reason the military prefers the more general, if less colorful, name: unidentified flying objects. UFO ( pronounced Yoo-foe ) for short."

http://www.ufopages.com/Reference/BK/TRUFO/BD_005-006.htm

Note that the above describes UFOs in the context of the objects in UFO reports, not as UFOs themselves, which is another context.

On the rest of it ... thank you for more examples of how common the understanding is that the word UFO is meant to convey an alien craft, usually but not always presumed to be extraterrestrial.
 
Wow, this thread exploded. I took time away from it to re-familiarize myself with the Battelle Study. I am about half way through that now... Ok maybe a little more than half way. But certainly not 3/4 yet. Anyway, way more being discussed now than the Battelle Study. It might take some time to get through this and then catch myself up but we may want to start opening some new threads for the various and sundry divergences. If we are going to get into some meaningful conversation and debate I want to keep it focused so we are not trying to carry 4 or 5 separate topics in one super thread.

Please feel free to open some new threads and if you would like me to move posts, let me know which ones. Otherwise I will talk it over with the other Mods and decide what to do.

That said, I don't want to kill the conversation. I just want to organize the topics with more granularity. There are a bunch of solid lines of research herein that really deserve their own space.
Thank you for taking the time to do some serious reading and research on this Ron. Too many people just take things on face value and frame their conclusions about it based on their own belief system without ever conducting any critical analysis. I believe the Battelle study to be an extremely important study and that one can draw conclusions from it that have major consequences for Ufology (the research discipline).

There are three principle conclusions arising from the study that I believe to be of immense importance:

First it indicates that there are a greater number of “true UFOs” (genuine UFOs, or simply “unknowns”) in the data than is popularly recognised (ie; 20+% as opposed to 5%).

Second it indicates that the more reliable a report, the greater the likelihood of it being classified as an unknown. The debunkers would have us believe the opposite - that is that UFO reports get classified as unknown because they are unreliable or contain insufficient information. The Battelle study indicates this is not true at all and in fact quite the opposite hold true – the more reliable a report, the greater the likelihood it will be classified as unknown.

Finally, the study contains an analysis that directly tests the debunker hypothesis that UFOs are merely misidentified mundane objects. If that were true, then we should expect there to be no difference on defined characteristics (such as shape, speed, etc) between the known and the unknown category reports (that is, if all reports derive from the same mundane population, then we should expect no overall difference between those categories of report on the defined characteristics). The study shows there IS a difference and thus the debunker hypothesis is falsified.

These are extremely important conclusions, but no-one should take them at face value. Because of their critical importance, they deserve to be placed under close scrutiny and critical analysis – and I am very pleased that you seem to be taking the time to do just that. I look forward to your thoughts in the near future.


Hey Rramjet:

From The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects - Ruppelt:

"Obviously the term "flying saucer" is misleading when applied to objects of every conceivable shape and performance. For this reason the military prefers the more general, if less colorful, name: unidentified flying objects. UFO ( pronounced Yoo-foe ) for short."

http://www.ufopages.com/Reference/BK/TRUFO/BD_005-006.htm
Okay, you are right, Ruppelt preferred to pronounce the acronym as “yoo-foe” – but if we are making appeal to popular usage here, then “U.F.O” definitely has current coinage. But then, I guess, as with all pronunciation, it is a matter of personal and regional preference and expediency. I don’t think it is something we need bog ourselves in argument over.


... thank you for more examples of how common the understanding is that the word UFO is meant to convey an alien craft, usually but not always presumed to be extraterrestrial.
The term UFO is not “meant to convey an alien craft” at all. Ruppelt primarily coined the term “UFO” because (as your own quote above indicates) the term “flying saucer” was considered to be misleading as the phenomenon obviously manifested in forms other than the “flying saucer” shape.

In addition to that, Ruppelt also believed that UFOs might possibly represent “alien spacecraft” (only possibly because he also stated: “I wouldn't class myself as a "believer," exactly…” - http://www.ufopages.com/Reference/BK/TRUFO/Reframe.htm?TRUFO-CH01~FS_005-006.htm p.247), but critically he did not coin the term because of that belief - or even to represent that belief – it was an expediency to broaden the definition to include things other than mere “flying saucers”.

That is the critical distinction I believe you are missing in all this ufology - and that you are missing it is further indicated in your own use of terminology. That is:

There is a difference between your term “presume” (ie; “suppose that something is the case on the basis of probability” - http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/presume) and the terms actually used in the dictionary definitions (ie; “supposed to be”; “thought to be”; “think (they) are”; etc) which is in fact to “assume” (“suppose to be the case, without proof” - http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/assume).

Thus while the acronym UFO has come to be popularly associated with ET, it was not coined to represent that belief – nor by definition does it carry that meaning.

As I have stated a number of times now, you may legitimately believe UFOs to represent ET (or alien spcecraft, etc), but that is a personal belief and no matter how popular that belief might be, it has never (as far as I know) been proved to be true, and thus cannot be definitional. Moreover, if you think it is definitional, then you have to consider what makes that definition any more legitimate than having UFO defined as a misidentified mundane object (or interdimensional being, or time travellers, etc).

You came into this decrying the illegitimacy of USAF definitions because they excluded mention of ET (or alien spacecraft, etc) – because you believed they were alien craft. But then, by the same logic, someone else could equally decry those definitions because they believed UFOs were all misidentified mundane objects and that there is no mention of that in the definitions…

This is a point that you seem to have studiously ignored every time I have raised it. Can you please address yourself to it specifically?

On another point of mine you seem to continue to ignore: Regarding your belief that UFOs represent alien craft, can you provide any evidence and/or logical argument that supports that belief?

What I am trying to get at here ufology is the basis for your beliefs. Their foundation. The research and the evidence upon which they rely – which is, after all, in turn, the basis for this thread.

In my opinion, the ET hypothesis is a plausible hypothetical explanation. My basis for believing that is because science predicts ET should exist, it does not rule out interstellar travel and we have observations of ostensibly intelligently controlled craft and associated beings. But note carefully here, I believe it is a plausible hypothetical explanation for UFOs, not that it is a proven fact – and while it may be a plausible explanation, that does not make it true. You, on the other hand, seem to have a firm belief that UFOs are extraterrestrial craft (it is true that they are) – so my question to you is: Do you have anything over and above my own reasons above that would lead you to that strong conclusion?
 
... Okay, you are right, Ruppelt preferred to pronounce the acronym as “yoo-foe” – but if we are making appeal to popular usage here, then “U.F.O” definitely has current coinage. But then, I guess, as with all pronunciation, it is a matter of personal and regional preference and expediency. I don’t think it is something we need bog ourselves in argument over ...


Right ... and then there was a cool sci-fi show called UFO which is still popular in UFO culture. You might remeber SHADO, Commander Straker and of course the scintillating Lt. Gay Ellis. This show used the original pronounciation as well. Grant it that most people simply say U-F-O, but there are still people who say yoo-foe and it further illutrates the nature of UFO as a word.


The term UFO is not “meant to convey an alien craft” at all. Ruppelt primarily coined the term “UFO” because (as your own quote above indicates) the term “flying saucer” was considered to be misleading as the phenomenon obviously manifested in forms other than the “flying saucer” shape.


I beg to differ. Ruppelt also says that there were believers in the extraterrestrial hypothesis and that Project Sign's Estimate of The Situation concluded UFOs are alien craft. ( NOTE: I use the phrase "alien craft" synonymously with E.T. or any other hypothesis for objects which cannot be explained as natural or manmade objects or phenomena. ) Sign's estimate was specifically E.T.

However there are still two usage issues being confused here with respect to the definition. First there is the usage that refers to UFOs themselves as defined objects, and the other usage that refers to UFO reports. Simply because someone submits a UFO report doesn't mean the object in the report was a UFO. In UFO reports, the word is only meant to convey what kind of report it is. This is no different than a report from someone who might be hired to locate water below the ground on a piece of land. Before they start drilling it is likely they may create a report of some kind in which they suggest where they should look. No water has in fact been proven to be there, but we all know what it is they are looking for.

As for the assumption that the word UFO was not created as a designation for alien craft; it does not have to be stated outright to be established as true. First of all, it is painfully obvious that the USAF did not want to arouse more public interest in alien craft than the phrase "flying saucer" had already been doing, and for which the word UFO was created to replace. So straight off, the term UFO is nothing more than a euphemisim for flying saucer. It not only removed some of the mystique, but also facilitated a wider variety of configurations ... but configurations of what exactly?

Again it is also glaringly obvious that the USAF screening and investigative process was intended to rule out as many natural or manmade objects and phenomena as possible. Just because their definitions don't list every possible mundane explanation doesn't mean they wanted mundane objects reported as UFOs. Imagine what would happen if a USAF pilot reported a blowing piece of tin foil as a UFO and used the excuse, "Well it doesn't say not to report it." AFR 200-2 Feb 05, 1958, defines in some detail the mundane objects not to be reported as UFOs and virtually all USAF definitions illustrate the unspoken policy not to report mundane objects as UFOs. Why not? Again the answer is obvious. Mundane objects aren't what the USAF was looking for.

So if UFOs aren't considered to be mundane ( of this world ), what are they? Again, I think most people reading this are bright enough to figure out that there is only one real answer. The USAF couldn't just come out and state the obvious. However we are smart enough to know exactly what they were investigating. The advantage we have is that we don't have to play word games to confuse the public about what we're really doing. We're looking for alien craft and we can just come right out and say it. So why not stop the pretense and just do it?

Add to the above that most dictionaries and other standard definitions already include references to E.T. craft and the overwhelming public perception that the word UFO represents an alien craft. So now we have the entire word history, common dictionary meaning, and common public perception, all in agreement. This is not merely my personal opinion. It is a fact. So although I respect that there will be those who do not agree with the facts and would prefer some other more ambiguous definition, perhaps to better suit their own skeptical agenda or whatever, I am going to continue to tell it like it is. The word UFO is meant to convey the concept of alien craft, and the objects in UFO reports are undentified objects or phenomena that might possibly be alien craft, but still need to be investigated and/or proven to be UFOs.
 
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