Ugh. too many intellegent people.

[Burnt State]

I think more snd more ufologists, including Greg Bishop, are saying throw hypnosis right out the door. I like Greg's suggestion that we ditch it for ten years and then see where we are at with abduction narratives to see if they have changed or not in any way is the wise move.

My greatest exasperation is with the testimony of contactees/experiencers/abductees. Do we just grant a carte blanche acceptance of what they say? How can we evaluate what they say? Budd Hopkins and David Jacobs seemed to pick those testimonies that fit their hypothesis that this phenomena consists of physical being from another planet doing biological research in order to create a hybrid race.

And if you look at John Mack you see a third interretation of the narratives, one where the experience is defined as more internal than physical, where events may be taking place in a liminal zone. I aso am the most critical of abduction narratives, especially when there really is next to no physical evidence at all, unless you are willing to count the supposedly very rare human hair wrapped around a penis as proof of alien 'contact' of the salacious kind.

But what Mack and Bishop do make room for is that AP does not have to be physical or non-existent; it could also be an internal experience, a contact with an external intelligence, so it's either, or & and, with many realities happening simultaneously. Of course, that's also the problem with trying to substantiate AP as a real phenomenon - it just starts to sound weirder than it already does.

Now, if (as I have) you have read ALL the books by Raymond Fowler about this case, you find extraordinary tales of wonder and absurdity.

What do you make of Fowler going loopy thinking he was also getting abduction 'symptoms'? (am i rememorying that right?) Do you think that there's a bit of a madness contagion associated with AP?

Regarding rare cases with extra data confirmation points like physical evidence and radar confirmations, where are they? Sure we have reports of people seeing lights in the sky on the nights of some abductions but that only lends partial confirmation to nothing much. The only one I can think of us the Italian case with the giant footprints and overheated car.

Great REM tune btw. It marked an important paradigm shift in their approach to songwriting - that's exactly what the abduction phnomnon needs - a major shift. Besides, any religion is easy enough to lose. I don't know why we haven't lost hypnosis yet.

 

[mike]

What do you make of Fowler going loopy thinking he was also getting abduction 'symptoms'? (am i rememorying that right?) Do you think that there's a bit of a madness contagion associated with AP?

Or as some suggest Millions are abducted, possibly even everybody........ the AP representing memory blocks that have failed

Millions worldwide abducted by aliens | syfy.co.uk

John Lear thinks the figure is 10 per cent


John Lear

But its all a guess i guess, How could we ever know the real percentage ?

 

[AlienEsq]

On the upside years from now when the UFO enigma is finally solved, i consider it likely many of the answers will have already been posted here as speculation.
I like to think UFO researchers a hundred years hence will look at this place and conclude we were on the right side of history.

I couldn't agree with you more. It's the UFO phenomenon that keeps many of The Paracast listeners moving forward, and the day will come when research reveals we were all on the right track after all.

 

[stonehart]

Or as some suggest Millions are abducted, possibly even everybody........ the AP representing memory blocks that have failed

Millions worldwide abducted by aliens | syfy.co.uk

John Lear thinks the figure is 10 per cent


John Lear

But its all a guess i guess, How could we ever know the real percentage ?

Well there is no way at all (but hey you know that), but as AlienEsq says there will come a day when this enigma will in part be solved.... the question is when?
Hope it is in my life time because it would be really fascinating to see how close we got to it here.

 

[Constance]

. . . what Mack and Bishop do make room for is that AP does not have to be physical or non-existent; it could also be an internal experience, a contact with an external intelligence, so it's either, or & and, with many realities happening simultaneously. Of course, that's also the problem with trying to substantiate AP as a real phenomenon - it just starts to sound weirder than it already does.

Right. There are many kinds of experiences reported by human beings and many possible explanations for them -- categories into which we can place such experiences which serve our particular needs or interests. That in itself is not a reason to throw out one of the productive methods of accessing what is stored in subconscious memory -- not given the possible benefits of hypnosis for those persons afflicted with conscious or partly conscious abduction-like memories, and not given our need, as a species, to follow all available paths to reaching a single viable hypothesis concerning what's going on in abduction experiences -- their reality status and their causes or sources. I think that you, Burnt, are more comfortable thinking that the abduction phenomenon should no longer be considered as potentially 'real'. I'm not personally happy with that subject myself and have accordingly read as little as possible of the available books published about it. But it's not for a group of internet paranormal theorists to decide to put hypnotic regression 'on hold' for ten years. Professional psychologists and psychiatrists will do whatever they think should be done in treating such reported experiences or memories in their clinical practices.

I first heard about the abduction phenomenon from a clinical psychologist in a bookstore in the late 90s. I had become interested in ufos following the Phoenix Lights events and asked him {had known him socially at the university} if he knew where I'd find the section. He asked me if I was also interested in abductions and cattle mutilations. I was familiar with neither. I asked him about the abductions (was generally revolted by the idea of mutilations of cattle so dropped that subject). I asked him what was involved in abductions and how he knew about them. He said that he had learned about them at psychological conferences, both national and international. I asked if psychologists took them seriously. He said "we have to" given the planetary scope of similar complaints and concerns suddenly presented to clinical psychologists and medical doctors worldwide at a point some years previously (I don't remember how many years previously, if he told me that). I took from the conversation that the professionals to whom abductees turned, and the general intention of those professionals to do what they could to relieve the conditions in which these people presented themselves, was a matter well in hand and that I did not need to pursue the details.

Do you think that, if you could prevent all hypnotic regressions performed on behalf of people afflicted with these memories or partial memories for a decade, it would erase all further instances of this considerably consistent phenomenon? Kind of "let's not talk about it and maybe it will go away?" We'd all like it to go away, but what you're suggesting is a sociological experiment at the expense of many people. Besides, as I've suggested, it's not possible to indulge in such an experiment. The medics and psychologists will follow their own lights and their professional obligations to relieve to the extent they can the suffering of their patients.

 

[spacebrother]

My guesses as to possible areas where progress on the UFO front might originate:
Psychology
Science Fiction
Anthropology
Fine Arts
Genealogy
Physics
Information science
...others I can't think of right now!

A breakthrough will probably not be direct. It might come as a result of someone giving us a different way of looking at ourselves and how we perceive things.

 

[DissectionStalker]

My guesses as to possible areas where progress on the UFO front might originate:
Psychology
Science Fiction
Anthropology
Fine Arts
Genealogy
Physics
Information science
...others I can't think of right now!

A breakthrough will probably not be direct. It might come as a result of someone giving us a different way of looking at ourselves and how we perceive things.

Mass media pipeline connections...

Google-like group-mind forming the synthetic truths well beyond the absolute truth.

Each person is a relativistic observer of relativistic truths locked into our unique space-time continuums.

What is The Truth and The Reality?

To each his own???

 

[Burnt State]

Right. There are many kinds of experiences reported by human beings and many possible explanations for them -- categories into which we can place such experiences which serve our particular needs or interests. That in itself is not a reason to throw out one of the productive methods of accessing what is stored in subconscious memory -- not given the possible benefits of hypnosis for those persons afflicted with conscious or partly conscious abduction-like memories, and not given our need, as a species, to follow all available paths to reaching a single viable hypothesis concerning what's going on in abduction experiences -- their reality status and their causes or sources. I think that you, Burnt, are more comfortable thinking that the abduction phenomenon should no longer be considered as potentially 'real'. I'm not personally happy with that subject myself and have accordingly read as little as possible of the available books published about it. But it's not for a group of internet paranormal theorists to decide to put hypnotic regression 'on hold' for ten years. Professional psychologists and psychiatrists will do whatever they think should be done in treating such reported experiences or memories in their clinical practices.

I first heard about the abduction phenomenon from a clinical psychologist in a bookstore in the late 90s. I had become interested in ufos following the Phoenix Lights events and asked him {had known him socially at the university} if he knew where I'd find the section. He asked me if I was also interested in abductions and cattle mutilations. I was familiar with neither. I asked him about the abductions (was generally revolted by the idea of mutilations of cattle so dropped that subject). I asked him what was involved in abductions and how he knew about them. He said that he had learned about them at psychological conferences, both national and international. I asked if psychologists took them seriously. He said "we have to" given the planetary scope of similar complaints and concerns suddenly presented to clinical psychologists and medical doctors worldwide at a point some years previously (I don't remember how many years previously, if he told me that). I took from the conversation that the professionals to whom abductees turned, and the general intention of those professionals to do what they could to relieve the conditions in which these people presented themselves, was a matter well in hand and that I did not need to pursue the details.

Do you think that, if you could prevent all hypnotic regressions performed on behalf of people afflicted with these memories or partial memories for a decade, it would erase all further instances of this considerably consistent phenomenon? Kind of "let's not talk about it and maybe it will go away?" We'd all like it to go away, but what you're suggesting is a sociological experiment at the expense of many people. Besides, as I've suggested, it's not possible to indulge in such an experiment. The medics and psychologists will follow their own lights and their professional obligations to relieve to the extent they can the suffering of their patients.

Oh, no, I think it's real alright, at least I do believe that people report such strange experiences, but as stated above, whether these are psychological experiences, actual physical experiences, or a combination of these is still quite uncertain. I've posted about a number of very interesting cases over the years that I don't have answers for and that do suggest 'something stange' is going on. But I would place Hopkins, Jacobs and Sims' theories of AP on the spectrum of increasing disbelief for myself.

Real medical professionals will investigate whateve a suffering patient brings them, as they should. But hypnosis as a tool to confirm or deny any reality of that situation we know is not that reliable, and in the hands of ufologists has become confirmation of confabulation including possible sexual innuendo and the projecting of AP onto one's child - all unacceptable. The professional will probe with other tools, like questions that do not influence but investigate personal history and current situations.

Unfortunately, because ufology is the wild west of investigative fields, so it's only a thought experiment to suggest we cease using hypnosis with AP, not to make it disappear, but as I stated previously, to see how the phenomenon might change. That would be invaluable.

Currently, AP describes the traditional anti-structural experiences of individuals who are being initiated into a sort of parallel workd: drinking the faerie brew to be transported into the liminal space and then return with new leanings and knowledge for our tribe. I do respect experiencers and believe that their narratives are important, but should not be as manipulated as they have. That does not help the experiencer nor does it help us understand the experience.

 

[Constance]

Oh, no, I think it's real alright, at least I do believe that people report such strange experiences, but as stated above, whether these are psychological experiences, actual physical experiences, or a combination of these is still quite uncertain. I've posted about a number of very interesting cases over the years that I don't have answers for and that do suggest 'something stange' is going on. But I would place Hopkins, Jacobs and Sims' theories of AP on the spectrum of increasing disbelief for myself.

Real medical professionals will investigate whateve a suffering patient brings them, as they should. But hypnosis as a tool to confirm or deny any reality of that situation we know is not that reliable, and in the hands of ufologists has become confirmation of confabulation including possible sexual innuendo and the projecting of AP onto one's child - all unacceptable.

Right, so go after those individuals. Aside from sex offenders, are there others in ufology who you need to discredit? If so, discredit them where you can. It's not necessary to make global statements discrediting the entire field of ufology.

The professional will probe with other tools, like questions that do not influence but investigate personal history and current situations.

Right, but some professionals are also known to cross sexual boundaries as you likely know.

Unfortunately, because ufology is the wild west of investigative fields,

In your own view, as has been made clear hundreds of times here, it's an almost entirely worthless field of investigation. That's an extreme opinion, to put it mildly. I often wonder why, since you find the field so contemptibly worthless, you spend so much energy talking about it, mostly denouncing it .

so it's only a thought experiment to suggest we cease using hypnosis with AP, not to make it disappear, but as I stated previously, to see how the phenomenon might change. That would be invaluable.

Maybe, maybe not. You should do whatever you think is best in your own work with the abduction phenomenon. Who is the "we" you refer to? Are you trying to persuade others who have blogs, radio shows, etc., or others who do research and write books?

Currently, AP describes the traditional anti-structural experiences of individuals who are being initiated into a sort of parallel workd: drinking the faerie brew to be transported into the liminal space and then return with new leanings and knowledge for our tribe. I do respect experiencers and believe that their narratives are important, but should not be as manipulated as they have. That does not help the experiencer nor does it help us understand the experience.

You're interested in achieving one kind of possible knowledge concerning a 'parallel world' of bizarre descriptions. Fine, pursue that. I see the potential for another kind of theory-laden manipulation of 'experiencers' in the approach you favor.

 

[Burnt State]

As usual, those are mostly extreme elaborations of my position which is much more about questioning and describing. You give no credit to nuance and cateqgorize the discussion in a very judgmental manner instead of seeing the possibilities. Are you taking the ETH position as the only position?

As far as denouncing Ufology, I would say that Moseley did a great job of that historically, and given the popularity of the likes of Romanek and Greer we can see how problematic it is, as are the tawdry details of Jacobs's hypnotic phone practices with "patients" and I would include the Torquemada affair as well. There's nothing to prove & no one to discredit. It's all there in black and white.

You're interested in achieving one kind of possible knowledge concerning a 'parallel world' of bizarre descriptions. Fine, pursue that. I see the potential for another kind of theory-laden manipulation of 'experiencers' in the approach you favor.

Re: parallel worlds. Of course that is Hynek, Keel, Vallée and Tonnies. It's not my pet theory or anything, just the best of what Ufology has to offer. The second half of that trickster discussion is also descriptive and not manipulative. If anything, the discussion around anti-structure and AP honors the experience of those who have close encounters by describing their liminal events and contextualing it in anthropological terms. It also has a long and rigorous history in the annals of Ufology and para-discourse as we previously discussed around the recent Hansen episode and articles from Magonia. It does not judge nor critique the experiencer, but respects the significance of their narrative as presented on their terms. These in turn have created patterns that are historically recognizable. I don't think I'm saying anything radical at all but just restating some of the better ideas out there.

 

[Constance]

As usual, those are mostly extreme elaborations of my position which is much more about questioning and describing. You give no credit to nuance and cateqgorize the discussion in a very judgmental manner instead of seeing the possibilities. Are you taking the ETH position as the only position?

No. I think the interdimensional hypothesis is equally viable for some ufo and other paranormal experiences. I do agree with the COMETA researchers, though, that the ETH is "the best available hypothesis" concerning the percentage of ufos that have left physical evidence of being material machines technologically well advanced beyond our own. Feel free to point out the nuances I'm missing in the approach you support. I've asked for a written text where I could find the nuances I haven't yet discovered there and you've replied that there isn't one.

As far as denouncing Ufology, I would say that Moseley did a great job of that historically, and given the popularity of the likes of Romanek and Greer we can see how problematic it is, as are the tawdry details of Jacobs's hypnotic phone practices with "patients" and I would include the Torquemada affair as well. There's nothing to prove & no one to discredit. It's all there in black and white.

What is? If those few names constitute the highpoints of ufo research for you, no wonder you're bitter.

Re: parallel worlds. Of course that is Hynek, Keel, Vallée and Tonnies. It's not my pet theory or anything, just the best of what Ufology has to offer.

I disagree. Why don't we just agree to disagree?

The second half of that trickster discussion is also descriptive and not manipulative. If anything, the discussion around anti-structure and AP honors the experience of those who have close encounters by describing their liminal events and contextualing it in anthropological terms. It also has a long and rigorous history in the annals of Ufology and para-discourse as we previously discussed around the recent Hansen episode and articles from Magonia. It does not judge nor critique the experiencer, but respects the significance of their narrative as presented on their terms. These in turn have created patterns that are historically recognizable. I don't think I'm saying anything radical at all but just restating some of the better ideas out there.

I'm not seeking to ban any of the above.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Re: parallel worlds. Of course that is Hynek, Keel, Vallée and Tonnies. It's not my pet theory or anything, just the best of what Ufology has to offer.

Vallée's example of how to interview UFO witnesses is the best example of how to obtain the most accurate information. It is certainly not done by hypnosis conducted by UFO believers or inexperienced, so called, "experts".

Plenty of innocent people have been sent to prison using such irresponsible experts and fallible techniques using "hypnosis" to obtain "the truth".

 

[spacebrother]

The Many Worlds Interpretation is attractive as one way to look at the dynamics of a witness-reported UFO or paranormal event. A new twist (called the Many Interacting Worlds theory) says that other universes/ realities can "communicate" with each other. Perhaps the witness is determining the events themselves as the participant/ observer by mixing other worlds or realities with ours by the mere fact of being in the same place as the occurring phenomena. If time is taken out of the equation, their experience (and perhaps more important, the memory of it) could be "borrowing" from the entire history and future of said phenomena through some sort of view of the humanity's (or perhaps just he witness') ideas about UFOs and other weird stuff. There could be a lot going on during an encounter with the unknown that determines what goes on and what the outcome might be.

Dean Radin told me in an interview that sometimes he looked at causality as a "rail" that we are on, out of an infinite number of other possible "rails." When we come to a junction of probability and something happens to determine our future, we jump onto another rail. We (and everyone else) are continually switching rails all the time.

Perhaps I'm using theories that I don't fully understand to make statements about something else that I don't really understand, but thought experiments cost nothing to run!

 

[Wade]

Dean Radin told me in an interview that sometimes he looked at causality as a "rail" that we are on, out of an infinite number of other possible "rails." When we come to a junction of probability and something happens to determine our future, we jump onto another rail. We (and everyone else) are continually switching rails all the time.

I like this analogy. I mentioned elsewhere that before I signed up here i would keep myself up all night trying to wrap my head around such things without the benefit having been trained or schooled in such thought. When I first heard about the concept of each action you take alters your destiny I figured that each action of another person alters your destiny as well and there's not much you can do about it, you are at the mercy of another individual that you don't even know and may not have even been born yet...i think i got away from the subject a bit. .but the analogy I came up was as if you wanted to sail from Australia to the US. If you could possibly stay on the same wave all the way your destiny would be predetermined but there is a lot of other waves out there and wind conspiring to constantly change your course/destiny. You may very well get back on course but with the caveat that what happens along the way is going to change, because you are on a different wave. And I think it was Barry Taff use a similar analogy on this show a couple years later. Australia is the birth US is your death and the Pacific is your life's existence. Not exactly out of the box thinking but to my somewhat uneducated mind at the time it made sense.

 

[spacebrother]

I don't know if it's relevant, but I was reminded of this experimental film from 1976. Try and watch the whole thing.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

My guesses as to possible areas where progress on the UFO front might originate:
Psychology
Science Fiction
Anthropology
Fine Arts
Genealogy
Physics
Information science
...others I can't think of right now!

A breakthrough will probably not be direct. It might come as a result of someone giving us a different way of looking at ourselves and how we perceive things.

You forgot Religious Belief! For shame Greg...

 

[DissectionStalker]

Perhaps the witness is determining the events themselves as the participant/ observer by mixing other worlds or realities with ours by the mere fact of being in the same place as the occurring phenomena.

It seems DMT provides some avenues to understanding that our minds tune into different levels of interpreting and experiencing realities beyond "normalized" reality.

Belief systems in the collective unconscious will manifest outwards into individual POV's, and everyone's mind uniquely interacts with those unseen realities. UFO's are belief systems too, whether or not UFO's exist is also from one's POV too.

How many UFO experiences and sightings are identical? It seems this only occurs if the witnesses are close enough within that space-time continuum to have the same POV, otherwise UFO events are usually unique to the witness.

Are the repetitive/identical ones seen from multiple POV's likely from human origin such as military or aircraft, and are unlikely to be from some type of unique DMT or altered mind tuning?

Spacebrother mentioned Whitley Strieber during recent Paracast... some UFO expert that is friends with Whitley and his wife... mentioned in some audio interview... that Whitley Strieber's wife told him during dinner that she knows the "abduction events" were all in his head, and that's why she was/is not afraid of "the greys". Believe it or not.

 

[boomerang]

My best guess for a "solution" to the UFO enigma: Some kind of breakthrough in our understanding of the interface between mind and matter. Of course, that's a prediction so broad that it's close to "cold reading".