Underground Bases discussion:

[Han]

Apologies for my limited replies, I am very busy at the moment.

Great points from all.

Just briefly I was once told "failing to plan == planning to fail." so to my mind I expect that, and to be perfectly honest a bit disappointed, if they don't have such bases as part of a greater survival strategy.
I would also expect the perfection of such subterranean habitation would be a prerequisite to establishing any kind of permanent population on planets other than earth that have 'hostile' environments.
I think that taking all the raw materials for a shelter from said hostile elements (e.g extreme temperatures) for example would be a bit short sighted, when you could potentially adapt existing in situe materials or locations provided you took the necessary equipment/tooling.

Now re UFO's: one argument against an ET hypothesis is the whole space brothers alleged proclaimed interest in the continuity of planet Earth, and or humanities survival. That argument doesn't hold up if they are based here under Earth and not from space at all (as they would automatically have a vested interest given they share the same home).
I think that these are called crypto-terrestrials.
Not really my cup of tea, but I think some people are very convinced.

 

[Randall]

Even after multiple sightings by what looked like machines being intelligently controlled...

I'm still not even there yet some days.

I have an opinion that they're real, that they're machines, that they're intelligently operated (or intelligent themselves), and the most likely origin for that intelligence is another solar system...

But I guess that's just an opinion, not knowledge. For me.

You seem plenty knowledgeable to me.

 

[Randall]

Apologies for my limited replies, I am very busy at the moment.

Great points from all.

Just briefly I was once told "failing to plan == planning to fail." so to my mind I expect that, and to be perfectly honest a bit disappointed, if they don't have such bases as part of a greater survival strategy.
I would also expect the perfection of such subterranean habitation would be a prerequisite to establishing any kind of permanent population on planets other than earth that have 'hostile' environments.
I think that taking all the raw materials for a shelter from said hostile elements (e.g extreme temperatures) for example would be a bit short sighted, when you could potentially adapt existing in situe materials or locations provided you took the necessary equipment/tooling.

Now re UFO's: one argument against an ET hypothesis is the whole space brothers alleged proclaimed interest in the continuity of planet Earth, and or humanities survival. That argument doesn't hold up if they are based here under Earth and not from space at all (as they would automatically have a vested interest given they share the same home).
I think that these are called crypto-terrestrials.
Not really my cup of tea, but I think some people are very convinced.

No need for apologies Han. I always enjoy your posts!

 

[Han]

I like a coincidence, and I woke up and read this, this morning:

Unknown species may thrive in Antarctic caves - BBC News

Of particular interest was:

"It can be really warm inside the caves - up to 25C in some caves. You could wear a T-shirt in there and be pretty comfortable,"*

*Dr Ceridwen Fraser, from the Australian National University (ANU) in Canberra.


I find it amazing because this is a natural formation in Antarctica: which is usually a bit chilly

It reminded me of a small rodent like animal that lives under the snow in winter, I believe in North america and Russia, but I have forgotten it's name, he basically collects seeds and stores them in various locations around his under snow network of tunnels.
I will look it up when I get a chance.

 

[Wade]

I'm going with a Vole

 

[matthew1977]

I'm going with a Vole

voles are like a short legged field mouse with a cropped tail. . big pain here in the midwest. you dont notice the damage until the snow melts... tunnels galore on top of the sod. to get rid of them, you have to network with your neighbors otherwise they will just move a yard over and come back. the garlic smelling liquid they sell as a repellent is a joke. we have better luck putting down a granular repellent.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[Han]

I'm going with a Vole

I have had quick look and it seems like there are more than one type of rodent that live in the 'snow tunnels'.
Voles being one of them, but it turns out that the creature I had seen on television was a mouse:

The tunnels themselves are very interesting to me because it seems that they are formed when snow falls onto tall grass, which then bends and forms an air pocket or void. I am not sure yet if the mice voles and other creatures 'maintain' or 'improve' the tunnels like say a fox would with it's den in soil.

In an old thread (Weird Antarctica Structures/entrances?) I saw some possible tunnels in Antarctica:

I had a look on google earth and found that some of the map may have been redacted since the original thread, however you can still see the image above at these coords:

66 36' 12.58"S
99 43' 12.72"E

I don't want to go off topic but when I was looking around the area I found an interesting formation that almost looked like a former site of habitation in ruinous condition:

Google Maps



Coords for yellow highlighted area: -66.6018710, 99.7149128

@matthew1977 made a good point about the evidence of vowels above ground and I found this image:

Which reminded me of this:



Coords: -48.859711, 126.788678

Probably all natural formations but still interesting

There are also other such 'lines' in various places around the globe.

 

[marduk]

I'm no image expert, but that last one looks like digital artefacts from stitching multiple satellite photos together.

 

[Han]

The one of the lines in the sea?

or the one of the possible habitation in Antartica?

If you mean the one of the habitation near the 'cave' entrance then I agree that it could well be a result of the image, I don't think because it is stitched together, but rather because the resolution is not high and the image becomes blockier the closer you look (pixellated), and this effect creates 'straight' lines that are not necessarily there.
Just like we see on some Mars or other anomaly images. But I still think they are interesting in the context of the landscape because there does not appear to be any similar formation in the vicinity.

The ones in the sea I would guess at being tectonic (if that is the right word) in nature, as in they were formed by the movement of the plates. They are gigantic if you look at the size of them, so some serious forces must have been at play in their formation. they could also be volcanic or both and I have read about Lava tunnels before:

I am imagining something like above, only hundreds of times bigger!

There are similar looking lines in the Atlantic:

21.411492, -45.711535

 

[marduk]

The one of the lines in the sea?

Yes.

Here's a more complete answer: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-...-on-the-ocean-floor-in-Google-Earth-caused-by

 

[Han]

Maybe it's because Im'a Londoner, that I see bases under the sea, maybe it's because Im'a Londoner I see tunnels all around the globe ... *

One day!

*

 

[marduk]

Those are all tunnels that 'go' places. Tunnels make sense for all kinds of logistical reasons - especially transporting stuff when other stuff is in the way.

A base just sits there, but underground.

 

[Han]

If you were operating tunnels like that you would need sidings and emergency access tunnels, and you would probably want depots or stores nearby too.
Not sure what the best word to describe what I mean, maybe 'staging' points for transferring stuff between different parts of the network.
Basically an area big enough to work on the components of the transit system and or unload stuff mid way. maybe equivalent to a 'hangar' but for whatever system (e.g train) they use in the tunnels. Maybe a station or turntable (wheelhouse).
I suppose it is about how you define a base, but I think you could make a case for a tent being a base, albeit admittedly not a very fortified one.

Concorde from 1965 (Mach 2.04) is an example of something that people as being ahead of it's time, but actually it was quite slow compared to what the US had at it's disposal at the same time i.e the Blackbird 1966 (Mach 3.2) and the X-15 1967 (mach 6.70).

And the Helios II spacecraft 1976 went at (mach 206.5) Mach: two hundred and six point five! or 70.220 km/s *

I apply the same logic to Hyperloop for example: then the commercial version will be good, but not exactly cutting edge, if it even gets off the ground.

Having said all of that and argued for the tunnels, maybe they have skipped that step all together, and have something even more advanced than we can imagine, maybe some kind of remote 3d printing/forming capability and have somehow bypassed the need for 'logistics'........
But maybe that is thinking too big

Helios (spacecraft) - Wikipedia

 

[marduk]

If you were operating tunnels like that you would need sidings and emergency access tunnels, and you would probably want depots or stores nearby too.
Not sure what the best word to describe what I mean, maybe 'staging' points for transferring stuff between different parts of the network.
Basically an area big enough to work on the components of the transit system and or unload stuff mid way. maybe equivalent to a 'hangar' but for whatever system (e.g train) they use in the tunnels. Maybe a station or turntable (wheelhouse).
I suppose it is about how you define a base, but I think you could make a case for a tent being a base, albeit admittedly not a very fortified one.

Concorde from 1965 (Mach 2.04) is an example of something that people as being ahead of it's time, but actually it was quite slow compared to what the US had at it's disposal at the same time i.e the Blackbird 1966 (Mach 3.2) and the X-15 1967 (mach 6.70).

And the Helios II spacecraft 1976 went at (mach 206.5) Mach: two hundred and six point five! or 70.220 km/s *

I apply the same logic to Hyperloop for example: then the commercial version will be good, but not exactly cutting edge, if it even gets off the ground.

Having said all of that and argued for the tunnels, maybe they have skipped that step all together, and have something even more advanced than we can imagine, maybe some kind of remote 3d printing/forming capability and have somehow bypassed the need for 'logistics'........
But maybe that is thinking too big

Helios (spacecraft) - Wikipedia

You'd still need power, humans, air, food, water, and a place where the garbage and crap go.

So I'd look for power stations (they're inconvenient to put underground), air ventilation systems, places for food trucks to go in, water pipes, a place for garbage trucks to haul stuff out, and sewer lines.

Oh, and the entry and exit points would probably glow in infrared at night.

 

[Han]

You'd still need power, humans, air, food, water, and a place where the garbage and crap go.

So I'd look for power stations (they're inconvenient to put underground), air ventilation systems, places for food trucks to go in, water pipes, a place for garbage trucks to haul stuff out, and sewer lines.

Oh, and the entry and exit points would probably glow in infrared at night.

Not if they are under the Seabed.

I wouldn't be at all suprised if they can extract electricity and oxygen from sea water, and much more efficiently than is public knowledge.
You could just pump the 'waste' out into the sea and who is down there to complain or report you?

You would need some land based entrances and exits of course, which would require secrecy and guarding, but the site could only be very small in area, topside anyway.

As for food and other consumables it would be relatively easy to hide this footprint within the existing Army 'food' bill.

I would imagine most of the systems are automated and just need supervision which would mean that a much smaller personnel or crew would be required, than we would expect with contemporary comercial systems.

Even so, you are right about maintaining secrecy about such a thing being difficult, but then again if everybody is looking up instead of down.....

 

[marduk]

Not if they are under the Seabed.

I wouldn't be at all suprised if they can extract electricity and oxygen from sea water, and much more efficiently than is public knowledge.
You could just pump the 'waste' out into the sea and who is down there to complain or report you?

You would need some land based entrances and exits of course, which would require secrecy and guarding, but the site could only be very small in area, topside anyway.

As for food and other consumables it would be relatively easy to hide this footprint within the existing Army 'food' bill.

I would imagine most of the systems are automated and just need supervision which would mean that a much smaller personnel or crew would be required, than we would expect with contemporary comercial systems.

Even so, you are right about maintaining secrecy about such a thing being difficult, but then again if everybody is looking up instead of down.....

Ok how would you get people in and out? How would you get food in and out? Where would the garbage go?

What about power?

It would still show on lidar, sonar, and it would still heat the surrounding water.

And why do it? Why would it be more secret than a series of concrete buildings far away that you just pretend don't exist, or aren't yours?

 

[Han]

Ok how would you get people in and out? How would you get food in and out? Where would the garbage go?

What about power?

It would still show on lidar, sonar, and it would still heat the surrounding water.

And why do it? Why would it be more secret than a series of concrete buildings far away that you just pretend don't exist, or aren't yours?

Electricity maybe extracted (probably not the right word) from the Seawater itself I think. (chemistry not my forte ) *
But you could also have Nuclear reactors or even use wave power or bio-fuels like algae for example.

Who's Lidar or Sonar? they are probably well aware of each others activities just like in the cold war.

Garbage/waste could be just pumped out of an exit hatch on the seabed not very eco friendly or high tech but still effective.

Food, personnel and everything else could be loaded up at land based entrances to they system. Maybe at somewhere like area 51 for example?


*Salt water battery - Wikipedia

 

[marduk]

Electricity maybe extracted (probably not the right word) from the Seawater itself I think. (chemistry not my forte ) *
But you could also have Nuclear reactors or even use wave power or bio-fuels like algae for example.

Who's Lidar or Sonar? they are probably well aware of each others activities just like in the cold war.

Garbage/waste could be just pumped out of an exit hatch on the seabed not very eco friendly or high tech but still effective.

Food, personnel and everything else could be loaded up at land based entrances to they system. Maybe at somewhere like area 51 for example?


*Salt water battery - Wikipedia

A nuclear reactor excretes warm radioactive water.

Salt water batteries require replenishment.

Wave generators require infrastructure.

And if they show up on lidar and are visible to your enemies, what's the point in putting it under water?

It's possible. It's just very improbable and very uneconomic.

It also doesn't have any evidence for existing, or a reason to think it might exist.

 

[Han]

I think that for example the US was/is very aware of it's enemies capabilities and vice versa.
Things like nuclear missile silos are deliberately 'advertised' as part of a deterrent or threat.
A completely secret weapon is not always that great, sometimes an imagined one is even more effective!

The main reason I think I believe it should exist to some degree (probably not to the degree I have proposed) is because of the threat of destruction of the surface of the Earth. It has happened on several occasions due to natural causes including meteors and volcanic activity which wiped out the majority of life at the time, and those animals that did survive were generally living in the Water or underground, or at least with the ability to partially do so for an extended period of time.

We could see a nuclear war, or we could see volcanoes like under Yellowstone erupt or many other very real threats.

I won't pretend I know much about power stations, but I think they often use seawater for cooling purposes, but this is achieved via 'non contact'* rather than actually contaminating the sea.
Maybe a bit like a bottle of wine in an ice bucket. with the wine being the hot water from the reactor and the ice bucket being the sea. the wine and the water in the ice bucket never touch because of the bottle, yet the wine inside is cooled.

This would probably result in drastic differences in sea temperature that could be detected, but like I said probably only by people involved in the military.

I agree that it would cost an awful lot, almost to the point of improbability, but I just can't shake the feeling that it is something that I would do if I was in charge.

Doing things that people think are impossible can be a massive gamble, but the rewards can be worth the risk.


*
non-contact cooling water
Water cooling - Wikipedia

Apologies for any incorrect terminology.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Do I think there is underground facilities most likely for all nations and most would be very concerned being in them. Another aspect is on the secret space program and transportation of equipment regarding payloads using conventional rockets?
Most are likely within and circle of protection. Like any secure facilities above or underground facilities have strict procedures to get into as most would come under a military organisation and even private contractors are vetted through agencies as the does the Chinese , French, Germans,North Koreans , Russians any other groups. Also industrial espionage would be another angle that would watch out for. Example Lazar Case and civilians on bases. Just imagine what it would be like to penetrate these facilities with conventional forces?
On another topic of underground facilities sewage tunnels and great funny horror movie the killer fat blob Engineers may have just found the father of all fatbergs .