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Understanding the dogmatic skeptic - a first hand account from a former skeptic

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As a side note, I have had a UFO sighting as well. Clear daylight sighting, no clouds. I and two others saw it and observed it for about 30 minutes (we were driving on the freeway). It was a metallic cigar shaped craft and seemed fairly large, and to be moving relatively fast. There were no windows, markings, or basket on the bottom (like on blimps)etc. This was in the Dallas area in 2008.

Wow, thank you CG. I'm a cigar man myself, well sort of. You can read about it here: A Curious & Specific UFO Phenomenon | The Paracast Community Forums

I will state an open and sincere thank for joining us and welcome, blah, blah, blah. Just sayin' I enjoyed your first few posts, keep it up please! :)
 
Hey no problem guys, happy to share.

I want to make it clear that I approach the paranormal with a scientific eye and a skeptical bent. What I saw in Mexico City is something I can't adequately explain, and the team there also admitted they did not know how or why it worked.

I actually ended up distancing myself from the email group with the physicist for that very reason, as I felt some of his theories weren't backed well enough. To also be clear, he and the company in Mexico were unafilliated save that they had contacted him to see if they could find some answers for their work.

I personally feel that after seeing such anomalous things, one begins to understand other events in a different light, and that was how and why I started researching suppressed technologies and black projects, and how I came to start the project I'm currently working on.
 
As a side note, I have had a UFO sighting as well. Clear daylight sighting, no clouds. I and two others saw it and observed it for about 30 minutes (we were driving on the freeway). It was a metallic cigar shaped craft and seemed fairly large, and to be moving relatively fast. There were no windows, markings, or basket on the bottom (like on blimps)etc. This was in the Dallas area in 2008.

Thanks for sharing the above. A few questions if you don't mind:

- Did you file a UFO report with any group?
- Do you recall the date and time?
- Did the object ever pass between you and an object of known size and distance ( such as a building, hill, landmark of some kind )? If yes, please describe.
- Do you recall the location more closely ( what freeway and where were you going from and going to )?
- Did you stop to observe the object, or did it seem to follow you along the highway?
- You say "relatively fast". Relatively fast compared to what?
- You say "fairly large". How large and how did you arrive at this estimate?
- How did the object come into view, or how was your attention first drawn to it?
- How did the object leave your view?
- Did anyone get any pictures?
- How old were you at the time?
 
I'll try to answer these:

Thanks for sharing the above. A few questions if you don't mind:

- Did you file a UFO report with any group?
Nope, honestly at that point I didn't really know about many groups - I'd heard of MUFON but didn't think of reporting it at the time.

I should mention I looked up sightings of cigar shaped chrome looking craft and found 2-3 that happened around that time and in the Dallas area that were consistent with my sighting.

- Do you recall the date and time?
Only that the year was either 2008 or 2009.

- Did the object ever pass between you and an object of known size and distance ( such as a building, hill, landmark of some kind )? If yes, please describe.
Unfortunately not - it wasn't flying low enough for that to happen.
- Do you recall the location more closely ( what freeway and where were you going from and going to )?
I don't know what freeway it was - but it was whichever one you normally take from Dallas to the airport.
- Did you stop to observe the object, or did it seem to follow you along the highway?
Neither - it was to our right and moved roughly parallel to the freeway for the approx. 30 mins we observed.

- You say "relatively fast". Relatively fast compared to what?
The only reference I have is that it kept pace with traffic on the freeway. It's hard to say what distance it was at, of course, but it did keep pace with us on the freeway (roughly - it wasn't following the freeway exactly).

- You say "fairly large". How large and how did you arrive at this estimate?
Seemed at least the size of a blimp - it's hard to say for sure though as we never got proper reference.

- How did the object come into view, or how was your attention first drawn to it?
I noticed it flashing in the sky, due to the solid chrome look of it.

- How did the object leave your view?
We exited the freeway near the airport and lost sight of it.

- Did anyone get any pictures?
Sadly no pictures.
- How old were you at the time?
~25 yo.

I should say I don't think it was a balloon despite no good size reference simply because it was moving along its axis, and had no tumbling motion, and moved in a lateral fashion rather than with the wind. It didn't ever tumble around like you'd expect from a cylindrical balloon.
 
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Skeptics don't control what science pursues. Science is messy and wild and uncontrolled but it is set up to reward the pursuit of good leads. And that is where UFOlogy falls far far short. The evidence, and therefore the impetus for scientific study, to put it bluntly, is shit. [This paragraph has been edited and the meaning slightly changed-see discussion below].

In the entire canon of UFO "evidence" (99% or which is just witness testimony and this is AFTER throwing out the approx. 95% that even the believers admit is not worth anything) is there anything about which the average scientist (except maybe a historian, anthropologist, sociologist or some other field related to folklore) might say, "Hey, that looks promising...I'm gonna devote a bunch of time to that!"

It would take some new evidence unlike any of the wretched stuff thus far accumulated to get any traction there.

I know this situation is unsatisfactory to the believers, most of whom point to the quantity of UFO evidence without regard to the quality. A big pile of shit is not more convincing in this regard than a small one.

Even a quick look at the many supposed Blue Ribbon, Top 10 UFO case lists should be cause for alarm to anyone imagining that UFO's deserve scientific study. These lists are predominately comprised of cases long ago discredited or containing significant problems. And these are supposed to be the best of the best! As a skeptic who does get into the trenches to discuss this stuff with believers, I find the most cowardly but most common response, after I bring up problems with a celebrated case, is to turn and point to another dubious case: "Yeah, but what about this one?"

In a recent look I had at a classic case, the Tremonton film, I instantly found in just a casual first look at the file that most of what UFO believers say to sell the case is just plain wrong (I may do a blog entry on this). In many ways, the enthusiastic but piously flawed work of amateur UFO buffs has done more harm to the reputation of UFO's as a serious topic than any skeptic could ever do.

Lastly, UFO's have enjoyed scientific study. The US government spent untold amounts on UFO's in the early days in an honest attempt to understand the phenomena. But the evidence (in the form of actual documents) tells a clear story of how the government began to see that UFO's, while interesting, were not worth further pursuit and not likely to be the flying saucers that the general public had come to love. By the 1960's the government wanted out. We see this story told through formerly Secret documents, documents that demonstrate that much of UFO myth must be untrue, particularly the part about the government hiding the good stuff from the public.

The biggest and most well-funded academic study, the Condon study, while leaving a few cases unsolved, identified no avenues worthy of further pursuit. And because of several public relations gaffes, (unrelated to the actual work) UFO believers dismiss the entire study as propaganda. I submit that the same result would follow in any new study that didn't properly genuflect to Saucer Jesus.

The biggest indictment of UFO belief is the large passage of time and the fact that the evidence never coalesces into anything actionable.

So a skeptic, (a real skeptic, many believers now follow a silly trend of identifying themselves as skeptics when they are not--I see some of that above), cannot say that UFO's are absolutely prosaic. But he can say that the evidence for UFO's as something non-prosaic is so weak as be laughable. I can't say that there is a zero percent chance that flying saucers are real but the chance appears to be vanishingly close to that.

Lance


Contradict yourself on many occassions during that sermon lance, a real skeptic takes all fact onboard, you obviously cannot see that which is glaringly obvious, YOU are not a real skeptic, if you were, you would read all those government reports, you would acknowledge that serious top scientist's/proffesionals in their fields were employed, by the US government to assess the quality of the KNOWN data.
You just handwave away the fact that several of them became firm believers in an extraterrestrial presence, and you take as definitive the damage limitation footnote assessments of their work, by chairmen who investigated nothing, those men were employed to reach a conclusion that the government/airforce wanted them to come to, the footnotes/conclusions were already written, the fact these experts came to other conclusions than those required was nothing more than embarrassing for the airforce.

You also ignore completely work carried out by other world governments and their reports and conclusions, obviously because you dont even know they exist, yet there you are making your damning assessment/s, in true internet skeptico style, you are a million miles away from true skeptisim, i can see it, anyone who reads your quoted post above can see it, skeptic my arse, skeptical yes, skeptical to the point of willful blindness certainly.

Come on lance show us the depth of your research, that leads you to your conclusions, please try doing it without the dozen or so logical fallacies you employed in the posting quoted, and without the blatant unconscious bias you also displayed above.
 
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What explains the gulf between skeptics and believers with regard to the UFO question? As a lifelong active skeptic who has fairly recently jumped the fence to some degree, I may or may not have some insight into the mindset and rhetoric of skepticism. I'm writing this to better equip those of us who think that there is some genuine mystery to the UFO question to engage in more effective dialogue with skeptics, whose numbers are on the increase.

<snip>

So, there you have it, my first take on what it looks like to have been a somewhat dogmatic UFO skeptic, only to find that perhaps there is something to this phenomenon after all. I'm as puzzled by it as anyone I've heard on The Paracast.

I also consider myself a skeptic, and yet I agree with almost everything you said. As far as the prior odds of alien visitation, I don't think anyone really knows, but I don't think they're zero. The Fermi Paradox kinda sorta implies that they should be greater than 1.

I'm trying to cover the problems (and yes, they are hard problems) and possible solutions to scientific UFO investigation in my series "Unidentified Science" on API Case Files. Here's the script to episode 1:

Unidentified Science 1 - Google Drive
 
I also consider myself a skeptic, and yet I agree with almost everything you said. As far as the prior odds of alien visitation, I don't think anyone really knows, but I don't think they're zero. The Fermi Paradox kinda sorta implies that they should be greater than 1.

I'm trying to cover the problems (and yes, they are hard problems) and possible solutions to scientific UFO investigation in my series "Unidentified Science" on API Case Files. Here's the script to episode 1:

Unidentified Science 1 - Google Drive

Thoughtful and well written. Please keep us all informed! :)
 
paul i watched your skeptoid [spelling] vid twice, it kinda humanised you to me, you were twitchy as a cat with fleas nervous.
your opening speil about being a skeptic etc etc, then poo pooing forums like this, i thought here we go.

but then when you were so nervous and uncomfortable body language wise, aswell as trying to analyse a case, i was confused alittle, when you show the men in black footage to that audience, im thinking this is a total piss-take, or he does have a genuine interest, unfortunately the presentation finishes short, and i couldnt be sure whether the presentation was just a piss-take out of ufology and psuedo-science, or you were serious.
so i would like to watch part 2, if there is no part 2, would you be straight and tell me how the presentation wrapped-up, were you mocking with your plastic bag with a hole in it..
 
but then when you were so nervous and uncomfortable body language wise, aswell as trying to analyse a case, i was confused alittle, when you show the men in black footage to that audience, im thinking this is a total piss-take, or he does have a genuine interest, unfortunately the presentation finishes short, and i couldnt be sure whether the presentation was just a piss-take out of ufology and psuedo-science, or you were serious.
so i would like to watch part 2, if there is no part 2, would you be straight and tell me how the presentation wrapped-up, were you mocking with your plastic bag with a hole in it..

Not mocking at all, don't know how you could have possibly interpreted it that way. Yes, I did run out of time, but I don't recall being particularly nervous.
 
As for the Men in Black case, all the information I have is that this was not a hoax, although I don't think we really know enough, and I do have some questions that never got answered to my satisfaction. It's tough to investigate something like that from hundreds of miles away. Ideally, we would have gone to the hotel and spoken to the people who were there. AFAIK, this is the only MIB footage anywhere, and we believe it is the authentic security camera footage and that the people at the hotel did speak to these guys.

My point was - don't dismiss things out of hand just because they are weird.
 
Are you talking about this one? Public speaking is pretty difficult for most folks. I thought he did an excellent job.


yes, i thought he did well, i warmed to him, i watched it twice in a row, niggled me that it was edited at the ending, i wanted a conclusion to the case, and i wanted to see/hear the audience's response to his presentation.

a brave man that shows the men in black as part of his presentation, the cynical side of me, from dealing with debunkers, came to the fore, after due consideration of the vid.
i thought maybe it was just the first 30 mins of a much longer presentation, and the case was mocking psuedo-science, then there was another hour of pure skeptic for the skeptic audience, i would like him to have a genuine interest, but you only have to look at the ufology scene to see how many nasa men are in it, muddying the waters, mr oberg will tell anybody that will listen, that he has had a passion for UFO's since he was a boy.


edit posted before i saw your reply paul
 
Not mocking at all, don't know how you could have possibly interpreted it that way. Yes, I did run out of time, but I don't recall being particularly nervous.

you were nervous, your voice is stressed at times, even the vid TO posted, shows you nervously playing with your fingers, no biggy, it humanised you, you were presenting to skeptic's a poo-poo subject, you can watch your obergs et al, and just end up frustrated, as they take the public for total morons, but that said, it is american tv.

its the people in this arena that are as interesting as the topic, i always go to motive first.
 
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you were nervous, your voice is stressed at times, even the vid TO posted, shows you nervously playing with your fingers, no biggy, it humanised you, you were presenting to skeptic's a poo-poo subject, you can watch your obergs et al, and just end up frustrated, as they take the public for total morons, but that said, it is american tv.

its the people in this arena that are as interesting as the topic, i always go to motive first.

Paul certainly seems to have a genuine interest and love for the subject. He has devoted a considerable amount of time and energy to it. He comes across as sober and sincere. Nervousness in public speaking is indicative of nothing but human nature.
 
On a different note, some exciting research is being done by Dr. Harold "Sonny" White in improving the warp field theory of Miguel Alcubierre. Notably, power requirements were reduced many orders of magnitude, from the realm of crazy impossible science fiction to doable but outside our current technology. NASA has a project headed by Dr. White to test for the signature of the effect on the small scale.

If Dr. White can demonstrate the effect, I personally feel we can throw out the "they can't get here" meme once and for all. In part this is because the hypothetical Alcubierre warp drive is basically the holy grail of warp drives, allowing pilots to experience no superluminal G-forces or time dilation. If such a thing is possible, it's almost certainly the means of interstellar travel for intelligent life throughout the universe.

There is good reason to doubt this - as Geoffrey Landis told me, if interstellar travel were easy, we'd expect to see lots more evidence of it. There may be good reasons why warp drives are never or rarely developed. What is going on NASA now isn't even proof of concept, but even more preliminary than that.

Of course, I hedge. Maybe we don't know what the observable signature of a warp drive or its payloads would be. Certainly before you would send anything as delicate as biological bodies on such a trip, you would send very small robot probes - perhaps a small package containing a swarm of nanoprobes. There is also good reason to believe that anyone advanced enough to actually construct a warp drive would have transcended their biology, and the notion of "having a body" might be quaintly old fashioned.
 
I think that somewhere in the posts I mentioned my estimate but the whole thing from first noticing her face watching the objects, watching one descend, hold, move along the line of houses, hold, join with the other, float to a new holding point a couple blocks away, hold there again and then fly upwards to the stars, finally dissolve into two pinpricks and then gone was about 3-5 minutes. In my memory each section was a stunning amount of time to watch these two craft do their thing.

I speculate that when these impossibly high accelerations are perceived, that this may be a clue that we only glimped some almost accidental aspect of the phenomenon - that it wasn't where we actually thought it was. Our perception and memory may just not be equal to the task, so we interpret as best we can. I'm not sure of this, though - maybe a naive view is the correct one.
 
Paul certainly seems to have a genuine interest and love for the subject. He has devoted a considerable amount of time and energy to it. He comes across as sober and sincere. Nervousness in public speaking is indicative of nothing but human nature.

Thanks - what you can't see in the video is some of the pointless remarks that one person in the front row was making. JD edited most of that out, but as a result of fielding that stuff I was pressed for time. I don't remember being particularly nervous except that I had to try and rush through things.
 
Paul certainly seems to have a genuine interest and love for the subject. He has devoted a considerable amount of time and energy to it. He comes across as sober and sincere. Nervousness in public speaking is indicative of nothing but human nature.

i agree, no problem.

paul i still dont know the final outcome of the case you were demonstrating, the vid ends before conclusion.
 
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