Way to settle the Zeta Riticuli debate forever?

[Kieran]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal

thanks for that

 

[Brian Now]

For example, a civilization somewhere in the so-called "Galactic Habitable Zone" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitable_zone#Galactic_habitable_zone) could be as far as 50K light years from earth, meaning that it would take 50,000 years for the signal to reach us. It would expand out in a sphere from the civilization's center and reach us when that sphere was 50,000 light years wide.

You mean the sphere is 100,000 ly wide don't you?
Seems that if the distance from there to here is 50,000 ly then that would only be the radius of the sphere.

Hehehe, I don't mean to be picky, but I have to do something with all this caffeine energy don't I!

 

[marduk]

You mean the sphere is 100,000 ly wide don't you?
Seems that if the distance from there to here is 50,000 ly then that would only be the radius of the sphere.

Hehehe, I don't mean to be picky, but I have to do something with all this caffeine energy don't I!

Yep, math was a bit off there. But you get my gist.

 

[Hoffmeister]

Well I have a conclusion to the whole thing now anyway. Apparently we can only detect planets around 1.5 times the size of earth minimum, but as mentioned, when the Kepler satelite is launched next year we will be able to see planets light years away and see whether they have life on them.
I decided to ask Seth Shostak his views on whether looking at the Zeta region would kill of the Betty and Barney hill story,today and his reply was:

"Well, I don't know if the Reticuli system has actually been observed. No planets there have been found, I believe. I should look up the list of detected planets ... But really, it doesn't matter, because Friedman could always (and in this case correctly) argue that our planet detection systems are not yet able to find Earth-size planets around such stars. Not sensitive enough. So a non-detection wouldn't kill his story.

But ... the technology is getting better, and Kepler launches next year!"

So in 1 year, or maybe two years max, we will not only know whether that story is true, but I have a hunch we will have found life on other planets via this telescope anyway....
Right, i have to go bowling with work now, but i'll catch you guys later lol

 

[marduk]

Of course, if there aren't earth-like planets there, or life on them, that doesn't mean that there isn't some kind of base there.
We'll probably never end the debate until we go there. Maybe not even then

 

[Kieran]

People who have interest in this subject" Believe it to be that' there is number of civilisation's out there that are visiting us ' (Am i "Right or am i Wrong )To me they dont seem to what to get in touch with the mainstream public" So why do we think we are ever going to pick up a signal from there Home planet "When they act in such a way to avoid us as much as they can. Am i right in suggestion if they are from other dimensions' That it would be virtually impossible to pick up a signal " I am open to be wrong in that conclusion

 

[Hoffmeister]

i'm afraid there is no 'wrong' or 'right' in anyones conclusions. There is only compelling cases, and human testimony which is not only highly unreliable in many cases as our memories of situations can change over time and also there are people who make claims because they want to 'be somebody' or do it for the book revenues.

There are a number of points to make here:

1. Re: "When they act in such a way to avoid us as much as they can" - As far as I am concerned, black trianlges flying over the brightest lights on the planet (i.e. the belgium highways) making no attempt to hide themselves doesnt seem like avoiding us to me. Even when the belgiums sent fighters against them then didnt try and hide, they just dodged for a bit then flew off. There is a website that has mapped all the sighting of the black triangles in america and a large percentage seem to be sighted near cities or in particular highways.

2. "they are from other dimensions" - We really dont know that they are, as you can see in the black triangles poll on the site (and i know i am focusing on the triangles but they are the best documented IMO), they could be from the future, from other planets, from black US projects or from another dimension. But in truth, other dimensions are not even really scientific fact whatsoever, so that could me just about anything.

Stanton IMO contradicts himself when he says why would the aliens use something as backward as radio signals when they might be billions of years ahead of us. He bases his theory on the fact that aleins who are billions of years ahead of us wouldnt use the same technology as us.
He also theorises that they travel here using nuclear power, but this contradicts because whilst we can't quite make nuclear powered craft, we arent that far off, maybe 50 years or so. So in his theory the aliens are still using a similar technology to our own.

He says that every planet has a sun, and therefore they will always work out how it works and then use it to their own space travelling advantage. But every planet also has radio waves also so why wouldnt they still use that too? Afterall, radio waves travel near enough to the speed of light so what could be better?

My favourite theory, and i must stress its not based on any fact, just from what i have heard from scientists such a Michio Kaku is that perhaps they have found some way to step outside of our dimension yet still travel within it without being govenrned by many of its laws (i.e. light speed being max). But this is nothing more than speculation on my part.

3. Yes it does seem unlikely that we will pick up a signal, but right now, none of us really know the answers, for all we know radio waves could be used by all the civilizations in the universe. Its unlikely i know but that fact is we just don't know, and anyone who claims they do is lying.
I really do believe that whilst there may be slight government coverups in that they dont want the public to know our airspace is being invaded, i really dont believe they know what the UFO's are, or how to deal with them. Thats exactly why they cover it up, because they have no idea how to defend aginst them should they become hostile.

 

[Kieran]

i'm afraid there is no 'wrong' or 'right' in anyones conclusions. There is only compelling cases, and human testimony which is not only highly unreliable in many cases as our memories of situations can change over time and also there are people who make claims because they want to 'be somebody' or do it for the book revenues.

There are a number of points to make here:

1. Re: "When they act in such a way to avoid us as much as they can" - As far as I am concerned, black trianlges flying over the brightest lights on the planet (i.e. the belgium highways) making no attempt to hide themselves doesnt seem like avoiding us to me. Even when the belgiums sent fighters against them then didnt try and hide, they just dodged for a bit then flew off. There is a website that has mapped all the sighting of the black triangles in america and a large percentage seem to be sighted near cities or in particular highways.

2. "they are from other dimensions" - We really dont know that they are, as you can see in the black triangles poll on the site (and i know i am focusing on the triangles but they are the best documented IMO), they could be from the future, from other planets, from black US projects or from another dimension. But in truth, other dimensions are not even really scientific fact whatsoever, so that could me just about anything.

Stanton IMO contradicts himself when he says why would the aliens use something as backward as radio signals when they might be billions of years ahead of us. He bases his theory on the fact that aleins who are billions of years ahead of us wouldnt use the same technology as us.
He also theorises that they travel here using nuclear power, but this contradicts because whilst we can't quite make nuclear powered craft, we arent that far off, maybe 50 years or so. So in his theory the aliens are still using a similar technology to our own.

He says that every planet has a sun, and therefore they will always work out how it works and then use it to their own space travelling advantage. But every planet also has radio waves also so why wouldnt they still use that too? Afterall, radio waves travel near enough to the speed of light so what could be better?

My favourite theory, and i must stress its not based on any fact, just from what i have heard from scientists such a Michio Kaku is that perhaps they have found some way to step outside of our dimension yet still travel within it without being govenrned by many of its laws (i.e. light speed being max). But this is nothing more than speculation on my part.

3. Yes it does seem unlikely that we will pick up a signal, but right now, none of us really know the answers, for all we know radio waves could be used by all the civilizations in the universe. Its unlikely i know but that fact is we just don't know, and anyone who claims they do is lying.
I really do believe that whilst there may be slight government coverups in that they dont want the public to know our airspace is being invaded, i really dont believe they know what the UFO's are, or how to deal with them. Thats exactly why they cover it up, because they have no idea how to defend aginst them should they become hostile.

I think you got me wrong in the first part of your post' if you need to read back my first few lines i wrote" you would understand what i meant.Yes i understand! what you mean about the triangles over Belgium in 1990s "But that is not the same as parking a large ship over a city and leaveing it there for a considerable length Of time, If they wanted to be to our so called Space brothers they would have shown themselves already to the mainstream public they have there own agenda' and we better get used to it. I believe dimensions can be explained through quantum physics i believe'" Or i could be wrong in that . Stanton freidman is probably wrong on this one to me. Nuclear through fusion will help you go long distances from our planet'" But say if these species are travelling at unbelieveable speeds and distances through the fabric of space'" I would care to guess They are probably useing some other type of method. Of course any species visiting from a different planet would be interested in our most valuable commodity or power source you could say .. (NUCLEAR ) ......is what i meant to say if anyone is wondering . how would you use radio waves for space travel" Could you explain that a little better if you dont mind your guess is as good as mine to what we would do if they became hostile, Lets hope they dont believe in weapons of destruction, which could be a Possibility since there is no real evidence out there that they have used such weapons. ​

 

[Lord Australis]

A recent newspaper article i read comented on this and said that scientists are now using this data as a kind of cosmic 'Yellow pages' for SETI, so that instead of randomly scanning the sky, they can point the dishes at planets which they know have the potential for life.

Huzzah for science, but eugh... Way to take the fun out of being an astronomer.

 

[Hoffmeister]

I think you got me wrong in the first part of your post' if you need to read back my first few lines i wrote" you would understand what i meant.Yes i understand! what you mean about the triangles over Belgium in 1990s "But that is not the same as parking a large ship over a city and leaveing it there for a considerable length Of time, If they wanted to be to our so called Space brothers they would have shown themselves already to the mainstream public they have there own agenda' and we better get used to it. I believe dimensions can be explained through quantum physics i believe'" Or i could be wrong in that . Stanton freidman is probably wrong on this one to me. Nuclear through fusion will help you go long distances from our planet'" But say if these species are travelling at unbelieveable speeds and distances through the fabric of space'" I would care to guess They are probably useing some other type of method. Of course any species visiting from a different planet would be interested in our most valuable commodity or power source you could say .. (NUCLEAR ) ......is what i meant to say if anyone is wondering . how would you use radio waves for space travel" Could you explain that a little better if you dont mind your guess is as good as mine to what we would do if they became hostile, Lets hope they dont believe in weapons of destruction, which could be a Possibility since there is no real evidence out there that they have used such weapons. ​

Oh i meant the use of radio waves for communication, not space travel really referring to the whole SETI thing. But i really dont know what the triangles are.... one thing i do know is they are dfinastely there.

 

[Kieran]

Oh i meant the use of radio waves for communication, not space travel really referring to the whole SETI thing. But i really dont know what the triangles are.... one thing i do know is they are dfinastely there.

Thanks i understand what you mean knowYes you are right there seems to be some type of triangle flying around in our skies

 

[Illuminati0n]

Surely every intelligent civilizations technologies become obselete over a certain period of time for newer and better things as knowledge of the universe increases. SETI is rediculous, life out there could be 100,000 years ahead of us in terms of technologies. Radiowaves rah rah, they are more then likely, in terms of application, what 2 stones are to a match to start a fire.

 

[rpjmartin]

Seth Poostack has said they've pointed at the Zeta region many times and never received a signal.

In time, we'll be able to detect smaller and smaller planets and this could help.

There are no low-speed human radio waves emanating from the ZR system, conclusively ruling out any advanced civilisation ;-)

 

[Jonah]

Sorry for resurrecting this old thread but I'd like to add a few items that may be food for thought (for some).

First a few items about the map and Betty Hills experience that relate to each other and that are relatively obscure. Many people equate the Grey alien type with being synonymous with point of view of the map she was shown, the emphasis of which was the star system Zeta Reticuli I & II (it being the closest and largest from that viewpoint). However, If you read "The Interrupted Journey" carefully, Betty describes being shown this map by the "Leader" who she describes in the book as being taller, with brownish skin. This may remind some of the depiction found on the cover of Striebers "Communion" . She actually differentiates the "Leader" from the others, the smaller Greys. This aspect of her experience was very much downplayed at the time by Dr. Simon, most likely because it was hard enough having to deal with the concept of one alien race in his mind, let alone the possibility of several who may be working together. You will find this discussed, Bettys description, in the back of the book as well. How this plays into what is depicted in the map she was shown can be found in the details. On the map were other star systems, and between some of those were found solid lines, while between others were found dotted lines. IIRC, the solid lines, she was told by the Leader, were "trade routes" while the dotted lines, again, IIRC, were described as "places we go sometimes" or something close to that. So the idea here seems consistent with the possibility of more than one alien type being present in the Hill's experience. It makes sense (at least to me), that trading partners may also be exploration partners. It could be a symbiotic relationship and just as well could be a subservient relationship. It's all in the book if anyone doubts were I'm going with this. That said, it seems to reason that if you follow the logic I'm applying here, the "Leader", who was described as taller and brownish and was the presenter of the map -and- was on the receiving end of Betty's question (which preceded the display of the map), "Where are you from", that he was answering her question directly. This means that Zeta Reticuli was where -he- was from, not where the seemingly subservient Greys (shorter, different skin color and description from the "Leader" - see Barneys differentiation as well here) were from.

I find this to be consistent with other Abduction accounts. Again, think of Striebers "Little Blue Doctors" working with taller brown skinned (possibly a Mantis type here) colleagues. There are many many other accounts as well of collaborating types, including those of Jim G. and Kevin whose stories I posted links to in the Abduction thread. John Velez is another who has witnessed the little Blue guys working with Greys as has Peter Khoury of "Hair of the Alien" fame. At this point, I think you get the idea.

All that said, with the recent launch of the Terrestrial Planet Finder, the first place -I- would aim the thing would be not only towards Zeta Reticulum, but also at the terminus star sytems of the "trades routes" Betty described as being indicated on the map she was shown. There has already been discussion of the potentials of these star systems, a discussion that one can find here, that includes comments by Carl Sagan, Terrence Dickenson and others who probably would be worth listening to.

Recent exo-planetary discoveries find that one will probably be inclined to find planets around any star, it being the rule, rather than the exception. Whether they might support life as we know it is another question, as is the question of whether life as we don't know it, cares whether we know it or not.

At some point we will aim the Terrestrial Planet Finder at Zeta Reticulum system as well as the other star systems shown on the map. And we will find planets there. This in itself will lend more credence to the Hills account than anything SETI will ever discover.

At that point, the question we might need to start asking ourselves is, what do we have to trade?

 

[Kevin Daly]

That scene has always struck me as staged - I suspect it's an example of alien disinformation. I'd be almost willing to bet they conceal their origin as a matter of course.

 

[Jonah]

That scene has always struck me as staged - I suspect it's an example of alien disinformation.

Everything is on the table Kevin. That said, the idea that a race (or races) that may well be 100,000 years or more advanced than us on the evolutionary scale (all but three of the stars listed as part of Fish's match are older than the sun, according to Kretsch - most are much, much older), and that exhibits behavior that only 100 years ago, most of humanity would have considered 'magic' would somehow find in themselves the need to deceive a race as backward as ours is questionable (long run on sentence - thank you very much). And a form of, if I may, anthropomorphic projection. Just not sure a race (or races) that communicates telepathically, if the tales are to be believed, would understand the concept (unless of course, they picked it up from us). That is not to say they don't have a bit of the Trickster in them, but is that the same thing?

As I said though, everything is on the table, including the hypothesis that, rather than disinformation, it was more a seed planted that has yet to bear fruit. As I suggested, an easy way to find out would be to simply look.

 

[Kevin Daly]

Everything is on the table Kevin. That said, the idea that a race (or races) that may well be 100,000 years or more advanced than us on the evolutionary scale (all but three of the stars listed as part of Fish's match are older than the sun, according to Kretsch - most are much, much older), and that exhibits behavior that only 100 years ago, most of humanity would have considered 'magic' would somehow find in themselves the need to deceive a race as backward as ours is questionable (long run on sentence - thank you very much). And a form of, if I may, anthropomorphic projection. Just not sure a race (or races) that communicates telepathically, if the tales are to be believed, would understand the concept (unless of course, they picked it up from us). That is not to say they don't have a bit of the Trickster in them, but is that the same thing?

As I said though, everything is on the table, including the hypothesis that, rather than disinformation, it was more a seed planted that has yet to bear fruit. As I suggested, an easy way to find out would be to simply look.

You're right Jonah, everything is on the table. And we have no idea how much more advanced than us they are - as Leppy pointed out recently there is no set timetable for development. It is in fact conceivable that they could be behind us in certain areas (it's a matter of the road not taken. Even if it's only flower arranging). More relevantly, for even an advanced civilisation a certain degree of caution is simply common sense...For instance: I've mentioned before Bussard's speculation on the possibility of a weapon based on his ramjet idea being used to cause a star to go nova, if fired toward it and accelerated close to light speed. That's the kind of thing that will kill you however advanced you are.
I agree that it's worth at least looking at the area around Zeta Reticuli once our techniques have been refined a bit: even a small chance of success is sufficient justification. I just don't expect much.
(Of course, there's always the possibility that they've pointed us towards the home of a species with whom they do not have especially warm relations, or who are even more primitive than we are: misdirection has endless variety)

 

[Drew UK]

At that point, the question we might need to start asking ourselves is, what do we have to trade?

Nothing! - If interstellar travel became available what would happen to the prices of raw materials?
So, the only trading commodity would be the technology in converting raw materials into useful products. Since our technology is probably respectively backwards - it would be like going to the trade show selling wooden pegs.

Another hurdle would be if we wanted to trade - what would we want to buy? You don't need what you haven't got. And for starters we haven't got a catalogue - so how do you start bargaining?

They are not linked in to our monetary system - since it would require to be built on trust and any system which allows for monetary expansion pegged to nothing, just won't take off in any negotiations, I am surprised that this is still the model we all trust - but then it comes back to that old subject again.

To be honest - we have no authority to trade, to negotiate, to compete with products or do anything. Economics just like politics will be completely assymetric - and to start talking interstellar trade in this topic rings alarm bells!

It makes me laugh when I see this stuff - and lines of trade routes - it's not like there navigating the panama canal. Too much Star Trek in this one, sorry.

 

[Kevin Daly]

Nothing! - If interstellar travel became available what would happen to the prices of raw materials?
So, the only trading commodity would be the technology in converting raw materials into useful products. Since our technology is probably respectively backwards - it would be like going to the trade show selling wooden pegs.

Another hurdle would be if we wanted to trade - what would we want to buy? You don't need what you haven't got. And for starters we haven't got a catalogue - so how do you start bargaining?

They are not linked in to our monetary system - since it would require to be built on trust and any system which allows for monetary expansion pegged to nothing, just won't take off in any negotiations, I am surprised that this is still the model we all trust - but then it comes back to that old subject again.

To be honest - we have no authority to trade, to negotiate, to compete with products or do anything. Economics just like politics will be completely assymetric - and to start talking interstellar trade in this topic rings alarm bells!

It makes me laugh when I see this stuff - and lines of trade routes - it's not like there navigating the panama canal. Too much Star Trek in this one, sorry.

Not that I buy the trade route thing, but you're making an unjustified leap in limiting the discussion to raw materials.
Logically, trade if it exists between planets would be in whatever is unique to a planet: its biological resources (food is unlikely since it probably wouldn't be compatible, slaves seem unnecessary and too high maintenance, so maybe pets or useful microorganisms - still a bad idea in my opinion, but maybe it happens) and its cultural output.

And of course, there's always Tibetan music and Strawberry ice-cream Although as a Kiwi I naturally think we should try them on Hokey-Pokey ice-cream as well.

 

[Drew UK]

Not that I buy the trade route thing, but you're making an unjustified leap in limiting the discussion to raw materials.
Logically, trade if it exists between planets would be in whatever is unique to a planet: its biological resources (food is unlikely since it probably wouldn't be compatible, slaves seem unnecessary and too high maintenance, so maybe pets or useful microorganisms - still a bad idea in my opinion, but maybe it happens) and its cultural output.

And of course, there's always Tibetan music and Strawberry ice-cream Although as a Kiwi I naturally think we should try them on Hokey-Pokey ice-cream as well.

You have not understood my point,
To sell, you need to identify a need - and a price.
Neither of which we can ascertain - and if a trading system is to exist, the initial costs of quantifying these two will be economically unviable especially if it is leveraged with Tibetan music and Strawberry ice-cream.

Right now, were third world - i.e. come and take it for free. So, whats being taken? - There's that need again.