Weed

[auntiegrav]

Humans cannot be trusted to use any of the above in a moderate and sensible manner.
Those who are proponents of "legal" or "decriminalised" marijuana should look very seriously at weed as "..all is not what it seems!".

As long as the mentality is that people cannot be trusted, then there will be big government to tell them that "we're here to help".
The problem is our underlying devaluation of people as 'commodities' to be traded, coerced, advertised, bought, sold, and pigeon-holed. We have replaced the family and community with petroleum-based, profit-based methods of 'handling' 'problems' like children (put them in school as soon as possible), old people (stick them in a home instead of keeping their wisdom in the community), and anyone else that doesn't act within 3 sigma of the mainstream idea of 'normal' gets Ritalin or Prozac to 'bring them in line' with 'society'.
The problem is that people don't want to do the daily things that are required of a community: educating their own kids, watching their teenagers, growing their own food (giving people something useful to do). Instead, we have created the 'buy it/sell it/throw it away" society where people have no place except for filling a space at a corporation and spending the money that is doled out to them.
Laws are not the answer, and libertarianism is not a solution without personal networks and communities that actually care about each person.
How do we get that? We start by turning off the TV.
If you want Change, keep it in your pocket.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I agree wholeheartedly with what your saying, Auntie.
Unfortunately the governments who set the rules, set the guidelines to our lives so to speak, are continuously voted in to power time and time again by the same people who object to some of the conditions (laws) that have been set. And i am certanly not suggesting that you are one of those, Auntie.
If people were better educated about drugs (legal and illegal) and their effects
then maybe some would be saved the agony that they sometimes bring.
But your right. Society does not want to spend time and money to educate people, it just wants to give them more drugs.

 

[CapnG]

The problem is our underlying devaluation of people as 'commodities' to be traded, coerced, advertised, bought, sold, and pigeon-holed. We have replaced the family and community with petroleum-based, profit-based methods of 'handling' 'problems' like children (put them in school as soon as possible), old people (stick them in a home instead of keeping their wisdom in the community), and anyone else that doesn't act within 3 sigma of the mainstream idea of 'normal' gets Ritalin or Prozac to 'bring them in line' with 'society'.

We have chosen this, therefore it's what we want. It MUST be or it wouldn't be so. And the wisdom of old people is overrated. It may have been of use when we lived in primitive societies and they served as living chronicles but that's also when life expectancy was 40. Today we live far longer than we otherwise should and most of the elderly are ill, senile and useless. Technological and societal advancement has left the majority of them behind. You may think that makes me cold but it's an honest assesment and an indisputable fact.

 

[auntiegrav]

The problem is our underlying devaluation of people as 'commodities' to be traded, coerced, advertised, bought, sold, and pigeon-holed. .

We have chosen this, therefore it's what we want. It MUST be or it wouldn't be so. And the wisdom of old people is overrated. It may have been of use when we lived in primitive societies and they served as living chronicles but that's also when life expectancy was 40. Today we live far longer than we otherwise should and most of the elderly are ill, senile and useless. Technological and societal advancement has left the majority of them behind. You may think that makes me cold but it's an honest assesment and an indisputable fact.

Thanks for your honest reply. You illustrate my case perfectly. You are completely normal and correct that it is what 'we' want as a society. The questions are these:
Why are elderly becoming senile (many contributing factors are diet, lack of exercise, longterm exposure to chemicals, and lack of mental activity (TV))?
Why do we want to treat people like commodities and evaluate them only for their production capabilities?
Why do we feel the need to compete with our elderly and our children for a place in the world?
What purpose do we have as a collective society that will help us determine the actual usefulness or uselessness of having children and old people around us?
To quote from a letter in New Scientist:
"If our food makes our children stupid and lazy, how will they ever find out?"
If we send out children to schools where the 'norm' is to sneak around smoking dope and having sex with their 'peers' in the latchkey neighborhoods, how will they ever learn what adults act like?
If we outlaw dope, only outlaws will have dope. The way to truly get rid of it is to treat it like raw milk: make it legal only when handled by the processors(corporate lobbyists), charge the farmer for trucking it, pass so many health regulations that nobody ever wants to get started in it and the public is scared to death of it, encourage over-indebtedness through special 'loan' programs, and see how many growers stay in business.
Warning: you are making the assumption that our current society will last in the state that it presently is in. The current system of overconsumption is heading for a brick wall called 'peak everything'. We may just be back to those 'primitive ways' in a very violent and desperate leap to survive in the very near future.
The name painted on the elephant in the room is "perpetual growth".

 

[BrandonD]

We have chosen this, therefore it's what we want. It MUST be or it wouldn't be so...

You may think that makes me cold but it's an honest assesment and an indisputable fact.

Your statements aren't indisputable facts, they only reflect a point of view.

The point of view that the world exists this way because we've chosen it to be this way assumes that human beings are in control of what they do. I don't think that assumption stands up to observation.

 

[CapnG]

Why are elderly becoming senile (many contributing factors are diet, lack of exercise, longterm exposure to chemicals, and lack of mental activity (TV))?
Why do we want to treat people like commodities and evaluate them only for their production capabilities?
Why do we feel the need to compete with our elderly and our children for a place in the world?
What purpose do we have as a collective society that will help us determine the actual usefulness or uselessness of having children and old people around us?

Isn't it obvious? The answer is simple: immortality. We want to be young and live forever. What need is there for children or the elderly if no one dies? That is the goal we are so eager to step on each others necks to reach. This is what Hollywood and Madison Avenue are encoding in every thing you see, hear and buy. The difference is they're pretty up front about it now.

I don't see these as new phenomena though. What about dumping old people on ice floes? What about slavery? What about human sacrafice? Man has never seemed to have a problem with treating his feloow humans like crap, so I don't see why this should suddenly alarm you.

make it legal only when handled by the processors(corporate lobbyists), charge the farmer for trucking it, pass so many health regulations that nobody ever wants to get started in it and the public is scared to death of it, encourage over-indebtedness through special 'loan' programs, and see how many growers stay in business.

Curiously, this is basically how gun ownership works in Canada. Anyone can own a gun but the process of aquiring one is so involved, expensive and irritating, almost nobody does (except in Alberta).

Your statements aren't indisputable facts, they only reflect a point of view.

The point of view that the world exists this way because we've chosen it to be this way assumes that human beings are in control of what they do. I don't think that assumption stands up to observation.

First off you're connecting the start of my comments with the end. Unless you're prepared to contend that most of the elderly persons you know are healthy, sane and productive members of society, I think my statement remains indisputable.

In the second part this isn't about "the world" it's about "society", a construct entirely made by humans for humans and infinitely mutable in the hands of humanity. We could change it if we REALLY wanted to but we don't. That's the simple fact, we don't WANT to change it. Ergo we must want things to be the way they are. Either that or the alternative is so terrifying that we dare not even consider it (auntiegrav's "peak everything").

Say auntie, maybe you should call it the "omega-peak", it's sexier

 

[SnakeOil]

I can't help think how you guys would argue less about it if you smoked more of it.

Just sayin...

 

[BrandonD]

First off you're connecting the start of my comments with the end. Unless you're prepared to contend that most of the elderly persons you know are healthy, sane and productive members of society, I think my statement remains indisputable.

In the second part this isn't about "the world" it's about "society", a construct entirely made by humans for humans and infinitely mutable in the hands of humanity. We could change it if we REALLY wanted to but we don't. That's the simple fact, we don't WANT to change it. Ergo we must want things to be the way they are. Either that or the alternative is so terrifying that we dare not even consider it (auntiegrav's "peak everything").

Ah, didn't realize that I was misquoting you regarding the elderly. Scratch that one.

But regarding your second comment, my earlier comments still apply to society. Really wanting something is not enough to change it. This applies to many other things as well as society.

Take a synthesizer for example. The electronics inside are almost infinitely mutable, hundreds of modified synths are sold on ebay which can do cool things that the original synth can't do.

But this fact is completely worthless to most people because they are ignorant of how electronics work. Those people will just sit there and say, "Gee I wish my synth had a built in vocoder".

Likewise, the vast majority of people are ignorant of how the world around them works (including society), because they are operating upon externally imposed belief systems rather than impartial observation. They bump into the same wall over and over again, and they have little control over their own lives.

If a person is unable to effectively change the course of his own life, why would you think that this person is able to change his society?

In my opinion most people really want things to be different in both society and their own lives, but they are in a state of imposed ignorance and are unable to change their circumstances.

Even the people who want society to stay as it is are generally doing so because they are ignorant of the true situation.

Just something to take into consideration, along with your earlier statements.

 

[CapnG]

Likewise, the vast majority of people are ignorant of how the world around them works (including society), because they are operating upon externally imposed belief systems rather than impartial observation. They bump into the same wall over and over again, and they have little control over their own lives.

I can't agree, all belief systems are self-imposed as far as I'm concerned. Take me for instance, I was raised christian (My dad's a priest for cryin' out loud!) yet I shed that belief system at the age of 15, no amount of external imposition coud make it stick. I had to go off on my own to find a belief system I was comfortable with and when I finally did I discovered that it (Deism) had already been thought of... over 200 years ago, despite the fact I'd never heard of it.

If people are ignorant, then they are willfully so. There's always a someone else you can ask if you don't know the answer. The next problem of course is a) will they give you the answer and b) should you believe them?

 

[BrandonD]

I can't agree, all belief systems are self-imposed as far as I'm concerned. Take me for instance, I was raised christian (My dad's a priest for cryin' out loud!) yet I shed that belief system at the age of 15, no amount of external imposition coud make it stick. I had to go off on my own to find a belief system I was comfortable with and when I finally did I discovered that it (Deism) had already been thought of... over 200 years ago, despite the fact I'd never heard of it.

If people are ignorant, then they are willfully so. There's always a someone else you can ask if you don't know the answer. The next problem of course is a) will they give you the answer and b) should you believe them?

It's a weird thing, that's for sure. My family situation was the same, I was raised strictly catholic, and I was the only one in the family to "wake up" from the religious programming being passed down from one generation to the next. I could say that this happened because I was more honest or smarter perhaps, but I honestly don't know.

 

[CapnG]

It's a weird thing, that's for sure. My family situation was the same, I was raised strictly catholic, and I was the only one in the family to "wake up" from the religious programming being passed down from one generation to the next. I could say that this happened because I was more honest or smarter perhaps, but I honestly don't know.

Are you also a Gen Xer Brandon (roughly born between 1970 and 1985)? If so that could be part of your "Awakening", alot of us Gen Xers are apathetic and/or rejective of traditions. I think it's because they kept telling us the world was going to blow up thanks to those evil, evil commie bastards and we'd be lucky to see 1987. Except nothing happened. When the apocalypse is all-hype, you tend to become cynical...

 

[BrandonD]

Are you also a Gen Xer Brandon (roughly born between 1970 and 1985)? If so that could be part of your "Awakening", alot of us Gen Xers are apathetic and/or rejective of traditions. I think it's because they kept telling us the world was going to blow up thanks to those evil, evil commie bastards and we'd be lucky to see 1987. Except nothing happened. When the apocalypse is all-hype, you tend to become cynical...

Yes I'm a gen-xer (born 1976). That's a good point, people of that generation definitely seem to be more cynical of institutions and authorities in general.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

If we outlaw dope, only outlaws will have dope. The way to truly get rid of it is to treat it like raw milk: make it legal only when handled by the processors(corporate lobbyists), charge the farmer for trucking it, pass so many health regulations that nobody ever wants to get started in it and the public is scared to death of it, encourage over-indebtedness through special 'loan' programs, and see how many growers stay in business.

I have to disagree with you on that one Auntie.I live in a society that has decriminalized marijuana and the results are far from ideal. On the personal use side it has been okay but the rise in the criminal participation has been phenomenal. Here you are permitted to grow 1 mature plant (hydroponically or naturally) for your own personal use. If the police catch you, you can expect a fine , in the form of an expiation notice, of a few hundred dollars. A mere pittance when you consider that some are growing plants that yield several "pounds" of dope.
With people then feeling free to grow their own in their backyards the incidents of violent "home invasions" quadrupled.
The criminal element chimed in and now they have massive networks of these growers producing massive amounts of high yield, high THC dope grown with all sorts of chemicals.
The government here originally permitted 9 mature plants but when they realized the massive potential for gang involvement they cut the limit back to 1 plant.
Originally the idea was for the government to take the workload off the courts with so many people before the magistrates on petty possession charges and decriminalize dope and this part worked really well for a while.
In an ideal world the strict regulation, education and licensing of the people and the "....The way to truly get rid of it is to treat it like raw milk: make it legal only when handled by the processors(corporate lobbyists), charge the farmer for trucking it, pass so many health regulations that nobody ever wants to get started in it and the public is scared to death of it, encourage over-indebtedness through special 'loan' programs, and see how many growers stay in business....."
would work.
Unfortunately the governments are hand in hand with the criminal element, due to the massive amount of money involved, and are able to shape the laws etc. to suit them and it has become less than an ideal world..

 

[auntiegrav]

In an ideal world the strict regulation, education and licensing of the people and the "....The way to truly get rid of it is to treat it like raw milk: make it legal only when handled by the processors(corporate lobbyists), charge the farmer for trucking it, pass so many health regulations that nobody ever wants to get started in it and the public is scared to death of it, encourage over-indebtedness through special 'loan' programs, and see how many growers stay in business....."
would work.
Unfortunately the governments are hand in hand with the criminal element, due to the massive amount of money involved, and are able to shape the laws etc. to suit them and it has become less than an ideal world..

I don't think you disagreed with me, after all. ;-)

You just helped condense something that was too long to start with.
Everyone should be required to read "Legacy of Ashes" and "Reefer Madness".
The missing part of the Legacy of Ashes story, however, is the corporate influence stories from "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man".

I still think the ignorance of the people has to do with the way they have competed against each other for the bottom of the value barrel. New technology has always devalued the human being in the equation as long as populations stay the same (relieving people of the 'burden' of labor simply makes them worthless). This devaluing makes people detached from their place, and 'relieves' them of the 'burden' of directing their own value to that place. Dope is escapism with profit. No different than sports, disneyland, or computer games in that sense.

I have to stop trying to save the world now.

Dan

 

[CapnG]

I have to stop trying to save the world now.

I find it's more challenging trying to figure out if the world wants to be saved... or even deserves to be.

 

[auntiegrav]

I have to stop trying to save the world now.

I find it's more challenging trying to figure out if the world wants to be saved... or even deserves to be.

"If a man is ill, to the point that he cannot perform his normal functions or duties.....he immediately sets about reforming the world." --paraphrased from Thoreau....

In order to actually fix the world's most pressing problems (not just talk about it), you have to enlist the people of the world to make some changes. This, they will not do unless the things they currently do are stopped by some external force, such as a catastrophe or war which forces them out of their comfort-holes.
In other words, the only way to save the world is to destroy it (TEOTWAWKI).
The more sophisticated it has become, the more steadfast it is at keeping the status quo to six sigma. No longer do the outlying 'lunatic fringe' change things. Instead, they are drugged, cajoled, and disenfranchised to such a degree that there is no hope for real change. The world will dig its own grave and shoot itself. I don't have to worry about it any more. The KoolAid has been distributed, the guns are loaded, and the people have been hypnotized by advertising to "Do It" without thought.
It's just a matter of what the synchronizing event will be (peak oil, peak food, nuclear war, climate change, idiocracy or consumption)

Seeyalaterbye.

 

[CapnG]

It's just a matter of what the synchronizing event will be (peak oil, peak food, nuclear war, climate change, idiocracy or consumption)

Roll on 2012...

 

[Aaron LeClair]

It's just a matter of what the synchronizing event will be (peak oil, peak food, nuclear war, climate change, idiocracy or consumption)

Roll on 2012...

Was 1999, then 2000, then 2001. At least there's a bit of a break now. Wonder what the envogue date will be after 2012.....

 

[CapnG]

Was 1999, then 2000, then 2001. At least there's a bit of a break now. Wonder what the envogue date will be after 2012.....

2036; it's when that asteroid's supposed to hit us... or not.

 

[auntiegrav]

Was 1999, then 2000, then 2001. At least there's a bit of a break now. Wonder what the envogue date will be after 2012.....

2036; it's when that asteroid's supposed to hit us... or not.

This is the kind of thing that comes under the term "Black Swan".
A Black Swan is a random event that is an 'outlier' on graphs which, whether predicted or not, when it happens, it changes everything it touches. We tend to ignore the possibility of black swans because they are uncomfortable (since, by their nature, they will change things whether predicted or not). The only thing we can reliably do is to try and prepare ourselves for the possibility of change, and hope that we aren't wiped out.
Just because a black swan has been predicted and not happened doesn't have any bearing on whether it WILL happen. Randomness is what the universe is all about: that's why we have so much junk DNA, so many variations of species, and why we aren't lizards instead of mammals.
We know there are an awful lot of things wrong with where the trends are heading in consumption, politics, technology, and environmental damage and change. We know that asteroids have hit the planet in the past and changed it drastically. We know that the stock market collapses periodically because of overzealous investors. None of this data lends itself to accurate divination of the future, but as we look deeper into what is going on, we can see the need for preparedness to some extent. The more we prepare to be capable of changing the path of an asteroid, the less we have to prepare for that mass extinction event. The more we develop diplomatic relations, the less we have to worry about world war.
Unfortunately, most of the preparations we need to make don't involve making a profit from pliant consumers, so we get to make cracks about coming destruction dates and past predictions as though it is ALL bullshit, while we steadily work ever harder to consume any backup resources we might be able to use IF such an event occurred.
Humans are NOT smarter than yeast. Only bigger consumers.