what age do abductions start?

[trainedobserver]

As for the mirage question; here lies the problem. First, your response reveals your bias. Seocond, it depends on whom is experiencing the mirage and what their inherent biases are. A seer, a Yogi, a meteorologist, a psychologist, an atheist, a neurologist, all would have different interpretations of what this event is. Just because the worldview of one or more of these experiencers happens to be more widely accepted doesn't make it more valid than any of the rest.

Only if you ignore the hard and demonstrable evidence that a mirage is caused by light rays passing through an atmospheric temperature boundary. Only then.

What you are talking about are "interpretations" of perceiving the end result of light bending and producing images of the sky on the ground. That isn't a "worldview" question.

 

[Hotkafka]

I respectfully disagree. When I have more time to elaborate on this topic, I.e. When I'm out of the car, I'll elaborate.

 

[tyder001]

Uhhh, that wasn't even pertinent to the discussion. Either the "scientist" was right and NOBODY could EVER know something before it happened or he was wrong. Simple as that. Of course that was just "one" example and as I said before I'm sure your right and it's all explained by brain farts.

 

[trainedobserver]

It causes me to just automatically ask questions like ...How does that happen? What is the mechanism for it? Can it be demonstrated? Do people experience dreams that appear to come true? If so, what is actually happening? Is it what it at first appears to be or are other things at play? What else is known about dreams and so forth? Are there other explanations? Do they make sense? Is water in the desert detected by looking at images of the sky on the ground?

 

[tyder001]

Uhhh, that wasn't even pertinent to the discussion. Either the "scientist" was right and NOBODY could EVER know something before it happened or he was wrong. Simple as that. Of course that was just "one" example and as I said before I'm sure your right and it's all explained by brain farts.

Anyway, I didn't mean to "upset" you. I'm sure that in "your" mind you can lay out a "theory' that explains it to your satisfaction. It's an easy thing to do. It's what humans do all the time. Even I've done it but this actually happened the way I have laid it out. Still, my reasons were stated in the original post and going back and forth just to get an "aha" moment is (imo) silly. So, as I said before I'm sure it was nothing but a "brain fart" I shouldn't have eaten at Mcdonalds that night. Now, happy? Good.

Darwin Bless You!

 

[trainedobserver]

Don't give it another thought.

 

[tyder001]

Anyway, I didn't mean to "upset" you. I'm sure that in "your" mind you can lay out a "theory' that explains it to your satisfaction. It's an easy thing to do. It's what humans do all the time. Even I've done it but this actually happened the way I have laid it out. Still, my reasons were stated in the original post and going back and forth just to get an "aha" moment is (imo) silly. So, as I said before I'm sure it was nothing but a "brain fart" I shouldn't have eaten at Mcdonalds that night. Now, happy? Good.

Darwin Bless You!

What is the mechanism for it?

Ahh, now at least that could be a pertinent question. Here's what "I" think. The mechanism (brain)was asleep on my pillow. According to the guys from the study all my experience happened in the mechanism (brain) which is (according to them) self contained. Anything outside the "mechanism" that has was occuring and especially something that had not even happened yet was not available to the "mechanism." So, there was no way for the "known" mechanism "brain" to know anything and to even "imagine" something that wasn't even real at the time and to know details that had not hapened was impossible. So, once the "mechanism" brain woke up it "farted" and said to me "You" who do not even exist in any real sense outside of "me" this is what is going to happen next Sunday starting at 12:00 PM. Write it down Meatbot! So, I wrote it down. I then thought "Wow" I think I will write this down and show it to Jerry (PHD) and devouerer of Scientific American and card carrying member of "Skeptics R US" But I love him dearly he's a great friend. His response? No Damn WAY! So, once it happened his response? "I"ll file that one away." Crickets. But, at least he didn't try to "rationalize it." He didh't try to come up with a phony mechanism after the fact. He simply "filed" it away and went about his own way of looking into things.

 

[ArchieBedford]

Hi everybody.

The original question to open the thread was "At what age do abductions start?"

This question pre-supposes that respondents will have done the necessary investigation, read the relevant literature, spoken with at least a small number of abductees and, over an extended period of time, done the personal work to establish this most persistent and consistently reported phenomenon as a real event. Anyone who carries out a thorough, proactive, deep and impartial investigation of the reported phenomenon in precisely the way Eddie insists it should be done will come to the conclusion that the reported phenomenon is, in fact, real and not imaginary (to paraphrase the famous memo from Nathan Twining). Some of the most consistent features are the near-identical but superficially highly improbable memories of a sequence of events, the missing time element synchronous with close-proximity UFO encounters, multiply-witnessed cases and common but extraordinary patterns of body scarring, some quite deep and permanent. After a few years of thoroughly investigating the evidence and following up even as few as 10 or 20 cases, the idea that this is something "psychological" or "internal" will prove to anyone to be just ignorant, ill-informed tosh. It's real, all right.

So, the question was, when does it start? As it's almost always hereditary and, most investigators conclude, runs through bloodlines it can and often does appear right from birth. It's linked to one parent or the other, occasionally both. It's usually easy to work out which one, BTW.

Certainly by age four, children are being taken regularly. My memories of being abducted are from age four or five, but they could have started from birth - I just don't remember before about age four.


BTW I have been personally contacted by PM through these very forums by a number of abductees, all paranoid about ID secrecy and most of whom never post, even once. I have yet to meet or be contacted by any abductee who would even consider going to a "mental health professional" to investigate what is happening to them. They want to know what the hell is going on: the high-level, successful professionals in particular do not want the stigma of having anything like this on their medical records, quite apart from the fact that 98% of "mental health professionals" know absolutely fuck all about this phenomenon and are never going to learn, so talking to them is worse than useless.

 

[Hotkafka]

Too funny! I'll chime in here in a couple hours or so.

 

[tyder001]

Too funny! I'll chime in here in a couple hours or so.

Looking forward to it. I'm not a big nuts and bolts ufo type. I also never really gave abductions a whole lot of thought (except for some wierd episodes from my own youth) so I'm learning some stuff.

 

[trainedobserver]

Hi Archie,

First off, I don't deny that the alien abduction phenomena occurs, but I have no idea what is actually going on. I've read a lot of the literature on the subject and corresponded with people who are abductees and experiencers.

I may have asked you this question before and I apologize if I have but, why do you think it is that given the profusion of CC cameras in society that no images of abductions in progress have emerged? A study of the literature seems to indicate that abductions do occur in highly populated areas where these cameras are most prevalent.

 

[ArchieBedford]

Hi Archie,

First off, I don't deny that the alien abduction phenomena occurs, but I have no idea what is actually going on. I've read a lot of the literature on the subject and corresponded with people who are abductees and experiencers.

I may have asked you this question before and I apologize if I have but, why do you think it is that given the profusion of CC cameras in society that no images of abductions in progress have emerged? A study of the literature seems to indicate that abductions do occur in highly populated areas where these cameras are most prevalent.

A few cctv sequences have emerged over the years which seem to show abductions in progress, but in each case could (and probably would) be claimed as mistakes or frauds. About a year ago I saw one of these which was compelling, up to a point. It was from a security-camera mounted high on an internal wall in a low-occupancy office building at night. The sequence had a digital time-signature on the film footage. It showed a security guard slowly walking along then just disappear in a kind of flash. Two hours later the same camera showed him reappear on the floor, on his hands and knees, about ten feet away from where he had been standing.

Attempts by abductees to film their bedrooms at night have generally been frustrated: typically, the camera will show the sleeper rise, go straight towards the camera, extend their arm towards it (to turn it off) then the filming stops. One or two hours later, it suddenly starts again. We've tried to figure out how to get round this, by for example containing the camera hidden from sight in some kind of tamper-proof box or cage over which the abductee has no control (i.e. it's set up by someone else). However, when you consider how the proximity of these craft has been so often reported to stop vehicle engines and cause local power outages, you appreciate the problem is not a simple one.

It would be a mistake to claim (I realise you're not doing this) that because you've seen no convincing cctv footage of an abduction taking place, the phenomenon therefore does not exist. You also need to factor in that the vast majority of abductees are shy to the point of paranoia about their ID getting into the public domain, and that this is another associated problem about even attempting to film in most cases.

 

[trainedobserver]

he sequence had a digital time-signature on the film footage. It showed a security guard slowly walking along then just disappear in a kind of flash. Two hours later the same camera showed him reappear on the floor, on his hands and knees, about ten feet away from where he had been standing.

I've seen the sequence where he disappears but not the one where he reappears.

Thanks for talking about this Archie. I cannot imagine what it must be like to go through that type of experience. Certainly, when you look at cases like Karla Turner's, it is hard to dismiss the whole business out of hand.

 

[Hotkafka]

Only if you ignore the hard and demonstrable evidence that a mirage is caused by light rays passing through an atmospheric temperature boundary. Only then.

What you are talking about are "interpretations" of perceiving the end result of light bending and producing images of the sky on the ground. That isn't a "worldview" question.

The issue is just that, the hard demonstrable evidence you reference is an expression of an attempt to attend to one worldview, which equates physicallity and the laws of cause and effect as the underlying mechanism of all that manifests in reality. It is a bias, and represents just one of many such bias that serve mankind in his quest for understanding. Take for instance the case of John Wayne Westerner who is taking a leisurely stroll in Death Valley. He is lost and thirsty and wishing his damnest he had taken the time to scavenge from his 401K plan to buy a GPS. In the grips of unyielding forces of heat he sees before him a warble of energy unfold into a vision of water surrounded by the usual flowering of palm trees. Immediately, he defaults into the conditioned impulse to discover the physical phenemenon that may be responsible for this "mirage" - a cultural bias which reflects the consensus belief system of mainstream Western Society. He collapses in frustration, for he failed his meterology class in undergraduate studies. Miraculously, a helicopter appears and whisks him away to an Arby's parking lot, this followed by a stern ass-chewing by resident park ranger. When at home sipping a single malt, he marches over to his Mac and performs a google search: Mirages. A reeling list of sites appears elaborating on the years of crack research Science has produced via the scientific method. Light bending in the atmosphere reflected onto land. Bias served: answer discovered. He goes to bed after a short fit of exercise inspired via pornography. This says nothing about what John Wayne Westerned actually experienced. It just produces a possibility, one that serves the cultural bias produced by years of research done by the Western Scientific community.

Take Siddartha Babba, a Yogi extrodinaire lolligagging amidst the desert in that same scenario. Instead of a Western bias, he believes in the worldview elaborated in Tantric Yoga. He is thirsty, lost but content in being lost, and then "bang!," the same vision manifests before him. Believing that he is but one manifestation of divine consciousness which supports that consciousness or mind is the seed of the universe, and that all is maya, he interprets this as a experience which is corresponding and influenced by his inner state of consciousness. It is not merely the result of cause and effect produced by physicallity, but by mind, because that is the underlying "truth" of all things. He drinks from the so-called mirage, lingers for a day or so, and marches onward to find his way back to his three day seminar on breathwork and such. For him, his worldview served to enable his bias, and he is quite happy with his experience. Once again, this says nothing about what actually happened. However, his experience with mirages has proved to be a pleasant one.

Whether or not the data supports the perception of the event, or evidence, is not the issue. Each system can present loads of data to support their worldview (although thier ideas on what represents valid data may differ violently) and accompanying assertions. John Wayne Westerner may now be able to predict where another mirage may spring up in the future, and Siddartha Babba may be able to produce a mirage at will, even mirages that are seen by multiple witnesses. Of course, each bias may conflict with one another and either support or constrain the experience of the other in any given scenario. However, the real issue is how ones bias and worldview serves the needs of that individual as he progresses towards an understanding of the truth. In one case, truth is objective, and the other subjective. Science has proven wildly useful, as so has Tantra Yoga. Neither says jack about the truth of reality, despite their biases and their interpretations fueled by their belief in their corresponding worldviews.