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Why Science is Awesome

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Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
Here's a great video about science with super geek Veronica Belmont. This is why science works - it learns from mistakes.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nk_80e2owNo" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="640"></iframe>
 
Science rules largely for its capacity to revise its body of knowledge without bloodshed or revolution. Religious faith, superstition, revealed knowledge, all lack mechanisms for the revision of knowledge through human endeavor but rather require something perceived as being outside of or above humanities efforts to understand the universe for such a thing to occur. That makes learning from or even recognizing mistakes practically impossible in such situations.The ability to say, "Hey, this might be wrong, we better rethink this.", is the pearl of great price that religious faith, superstition, and revealed knowledge of any sort simply do not possess.
 
Yet people still like to equate science to a type of religion. I just chalk it up to not understanding the difference.

People often confuse the shortcomings of the human beings involved with science with science itself. Another absolutely fantastic thing about science is that it transcends the frailties of the individuals contributing to it through its capacity to reject, revise, and compensate for the human frailty of the individual scientist.
 
People often confuse the shortcomings of the human beings involved with science with science itself. Another absolutely fantastic thing about science is that it transcends the frailties of the individuals contributing to it through its capacity to reject, revise, and compensate for the human frailty of the individual scientist.

When money and law is involved, even science can't transend :(.

I love science, but people, including many scientist like to follow thoughts that are laid out for them, and sometimes react quite viscerally at things that go against their pattern of thinking. The infamous reaction Einstein had to quantum mechanics.:p

People who follow scientific doctrine and are "skeptics" and have that hard-lined skeptic attitude.. are equivalent to religious fundamentalists in how they deal with their belief system. There is an automatic defensiveness that shuts down their ability to understand or stretch their thinking.

---------- Post added at 10:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

That's cute.
 
When money and law is involved, even science can't transend :(.

I love science, but people, including many scientist like to follow thoughts that are laid out for them, and sometimes react quite viscerally at things that go against their pattern of thinking. The infamous reaction Einstein had to quantum mechanics.:p

People who follow scientific doctrine and are "skeptics" and have that hard-lined skeptic attitude.. are equivalent to religious fundamentalists in how they deal with their belief system. There is an automatic defensiveness that shuts down their ability to understand or stretch their thinking.

Sorry, but I disagree with you. I don't have any trouble understanding or stretching my thinking despite the fact that I'm a James Randi type skeptic.

I don't believe ghosts exist, but if one were to show me undeniable proof of their existence I'd have no choice but to acknowledge their existence. That's the difference.
Try asking a creationist about all the proof we have that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. They'll say it's all Jesus magic.
 
Well.. perhaps a creationist would say..
I wasn't around 4.5 billions of years ago.. therefore, it didn't exist.. and since, in my community we believe in the 6,000 year idea. Then that is what I believe.

In your belief system, ghosts don't exist. Your friend (A) believes ghosts exist and has even experienced them. But you have to experience to believe.

There really isn't any difference.

I'm sure your thinking is very stretchy and no insult was intended. But, to me it is similar. Humans are profoundly illogical. There "logical" thoughts are made based on emotion, past experience, hunches etc...
So.. good luck beating the system.
 
Well.. perhaps a creationist would say.. I wasn't around 4.5 billions of years ago.. therefore, it didn't exist.. and since, in my community we believe in the 6,000 year idea. Then that is what I believe.

And then I would quote Bill Hicks and say, "Dinosaur."

<iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/R370YkYhV0w" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="480"></iframe>

In your belief system, ghosts don't exist. Your friend (A) believes ghosts exist and has even experienced them. But you have to experience to believe. There really isn't any difference.

I have never experienced traveling at the speed of sound, but I know it's possible. What I have experienced is irrelevant to what we know about the world right now. When new discoveries are made and that understanding needs to be changed, I roll with it. A great example that people like to use is that science did not think there was such a thing as meteors. People claimed to have seen them, but there was no proof. Then, proof was discovered and it became science.

I hope you see what I'm getting at - I'm not trying to beat the system.
 
. A great example that people like to use is that science did not think there was such a thing as meteors. People claimed to have seen them, but there was no proof. Then, proof was discovered and it became science.

A problem arises in the interim period between the first observations of a phenomenon and the moment when our official scientific institutions recognize the reality of the phenomenon. What about those unfortunate witnesses who observed meteors and were told that they couldn't have seen what they saw because the prevailing theory couldn't accommodate the data? They were witnessing an inarguably real facet of Nature, but because science hadn't yet processed that facet through the protocols of the scientific method, it was dismissed. And because in our culture science is the arbiter of truth, these witnesses had their truth reduced to the categorical status of error.

This gets especially touchy when the scientific establishment is for some reason resistant to change. Just because science can accept new data and modify itself doesn't mean it always does. Look at plate tectonics and continental drift. Alfred Wegener proposed the idea in 1912, but it wasn't widely accepted until the mid 1960's. That's almost half a century between the introduction of an idea and its acceptance into the mainstream. Look at Hugh Everett's many-worlds interpretation of quantum indeterminacy. Niels Bohr was the arbiter of value when it came to judging theories about quantum weirdness, and because he wasn't keen on having his reputation threatened by Everett, he wouldn't give Everett's ideas his blessing, and the many-worlds interpretation was relegated to the status of junk physics and pseudoscience. Now it's a viable option, but Everett ended up an alcoholic recluse because of his rejection by the scientific establishment (although he did enjoy a brief period of acceptance in his last years).

Of course, meteors and plate tectonics and many-worlds theory eventually made their way into mainstream acceptability, which confirms that in many cases science will eventually get around to correcting itself. But what about truths that, for whatever reason, never manage to gain widespread acceptance, not because they fail to accurately describe reality but because the scientific establishment never gives them a fair chance (or even because we lack the technology to facilitate legitimate scientific analysis)? How many truths will be filed away as fictions and errors for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, because no one can get the grant money to study a subject that sounds too weird to be real? How many people will be told that they didn't see what they saw or experience what they experienced because it simply doesn't fit into the current, rigid scientific paradigm? In other words, at any given point in history, there are "fictions" and "falsehoods" and "superstitions" that could someday be revealed to be scientific facts, but there is no guarantee that this will ever happen. Maybe a peer reviewer at an academic journal accidentally drinks decaf instead of regular one morning, and a paper that should be published gets rejected, and a potentially revolutionary line of inquiry gets stopped dead, never to be revived. Maybe a professor's pride gets in his or her way, and a brilliant young graduate student is dissuaded from pursuing a valuable line of research so that his or her dissertation advisor's life work doesn't get discredited. A thing can be true and real without having been given the stamp of approval by science, because science doesn't always exercise its responsibility to change itself when necessary.

Now, having said that, that doesn't mean that everything is true. Most "alternative" beliefs are silly superstitions borne of ignorance and wishful thinking. But there may very well be something that we all laugh at, which science could, in theory, prove real, but for whatever reason(s), never will.
 
A problem arises in the interim period between the first observations of a phenomenon and the moment when our official scientific institutions recognize the reality of the phenomenon. What about those unfortunate witnesses who observed meteors and were told that they couldn't have seen what they saw because the prevailing theory couldn't accommodate the data? They were witnessing an inarguably real facet of Nature, but because science hadn't yet processed that facet through the protocols of the scientific method, it was dismissed. And because in our culture science is the arbiter of truth, these witnesses had their truth reduced to the categorical status of error.

This gets especially touchy when the scientific establishment is for some reason resistant to change. Just because science can accept new data and modify itself doesn't mean it always does. Look at plate tectonics and continental drift. Alfred Wegener proposed the idea in 1912, but it wasn't widely accepted until the mid 1960's. That's almost half a century between the introduction of an idea and its acceptance into the mainstream. Look at Hugh Everett's many-worlds interpretation of quantum indeterminacy. Niels Bohr was the arbiter of value when it came to judging theories about quantum weirdness, and because he wasn't keen on having his reputation threatened by Everett, he wouldn't give Everett's ideas his blessing, and the many-worlds interpretation was relegated to the status of junk physics and pseudoscience. Now it's a viable option, but Everett ended up an alcoholic recluse because of his rejection by the scientific establishment.

Of course, meteors and plate tectonics and many-worlds theory eventually made their way into mainstream acceptability, which confirms that science will eventually get around to correcting itself. But what about truths that, for whatever reason, never manage to gain widespread acceptance, not because they fail to accurately describe reality but because the scientific establishment never gives them a fair chance (or even because we lack the technology to facilitate legitimate scientific analysis)? How many truths will be filed away as fictions and errors for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, because no one can get the grant money to study a subject that sounds too weird to be real? How many people will be told that they didn't see what they saw or experience what they experienced because it simply doesn't fit into the current, rigid scientific paradigm? In other words, at any given point in history, there are "fictions" and "falsehoods" and "superstitions" that could someday be revealed to be scientific facts, but there is no guarantee that this will ever happen. A thing can be true and real without having been given the stamp of approval by science.

Now, having said that, that doesn't mean that everything is true. Most "alternative" beliefs are silly superstitions borne of ignorance and wishful thinking. But there may very be something that we all laugh at, which science could, in theory, prove real, but for whatever reason, won't.

You bring up excellent points for sure. It is an unfortunate part of the process, but if something is possible, hopefully it will be scientifically proven one day. For now, you have to go with what you think is right and not blindly agree with a particular group (like we see in politics).

---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------

She's hot!

Sorry, I didn't get beyond that....

Veronica Belmont is an awesome geek that video game and tech nerds like me know quite well. She's one of the hosts of Techzila and she's a regular guest on TWIT.
 
The video is hilarious...

By system I meant inherent illogical behavior that everyone has, you, me, and everyone else. So, good luck beating your personal illogical drives that dictate your belief system.

People equate science to religion because it is a belief system.. western science has the ability to make measurements so *awesome*, it has a leg up. But if you think that current science has the answer to everything.. then.. your not asking the right questions.

For many people who have a science bent, there are obvious reasons why religion has issues. But, .. why don't you believe in ghosts.. if you were more "open" you wouldn't have that hard-lined idea of "No they don't exist." You could give them the possibility... "perhaps they do, perhaps they don't". Is there a policy on ghosts among science.. or is it an "unexplained phenomenon". A phenomenon which can be measured in many cases, and science is all about measurement. I believe there is an subconscious something motivating your belief system.

I developed a real "dislike" for hard-lined skeptics when I became ill with a very treatable (but somewhat rare) disease. Doctors literally didn't want to believe me when I told them I was ill.. they would instead think one of two things.. either i was a drug addict or anorexic. So here you have many men who are trained as scientists and medical doctors, who automatically assumed a false reality for me, because it was common wisdom and was the most logical conclusion and could have been deadly! (incidentally it took a natural-path (with an MD) to get me to semi-normal state...), the point being.. non-belief can be dangerous, it can be a crowd mentality, and it can be in-scripted in your belief system.

Good luck beating your own internal biases, emotions, past experiences and coming to a rational conclusion.
 
Ok, not really. I mean, yeah, she's hot but...

This all sounds very tidy, but in the real world of academia and funding, negative results are rarely rewarded. They are extremely useful to scientists of course, but funding is imperative to practice modern science. It's not just about pointing telescopes at the sky anymore.

So yes, the scientific method is awesome! But it is not always practiced (or able to be practiced) by scientists.
 
Ok, not really. I mean, yeah, she's hot but...

This all sounds very tidy, but in the real world of academia and funding, negative results are rarely rewarded. They are extremely useful to scientists of course, but funding is imperative to practice modern science. It's not just about pointing telescopes at the sky anymore.

So yes, the scientific method is awesome! But it is not always practiced (or able to be practiced) by scientists.

Very true. Look at what happened with Andrew Wakefield.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:13 PM ----------

The video is hilarious...

By system I meant inherent illogical behavior that everyone has, you, me, and everyone else. So, good luck beating your personal illogical drives that dictate your belief system.

People equate science to religion because it is a belief system.. western science has the ability to make measurements so *awesome*, it has a leg up. But if you think that current science has the answer to everything.. then.. your not asking the right questions.

For many people who have a science bent, there are obvious reasons why religion has issues. But, .. why don't you believe in ghosts.. if you were more "open" you wouldn't have that hard-lined idea of "No they don't exist." You could give them the possibility... "perhaps they do, perhaps they don't". Is there a policy on ghosts among science.. or is it an "unexplained phenomenon". A phenomenon which can be measured in many cases, and science is all about measurement. I believe there is an subconscious something motivating your belief system.

I developed a real "dislike" for hard-lined skeptics when I became ill with a very treatable (but somewhat rare) disease. Doctors literally didn't want to believe me when I told them I was ill.. they would instead think one of two things.. either i was a drug addict or anorexic. So here you have many men who are trained as scientists and medical doctors, who automatically assumed a false reality for me, because it was common wisdom and was the most logical conclusion and could have been deadly! (incidentally it took a natural-path (with an MD) to get me to semi-normal state...), the point being.. non-belief can be dangerous, it can be a crowd mentality, and it can be in-scripted in your belief system.

Good luck beating your own internal biases, emotions, past experiences and coming to a rational conclusion.

I think you've misread what I've written. There's no proof that ghosts exist - that's all I'm saying. I'm open to the possibility, but to date, no one has proven that they do exist.
Well, hopefully you won't dislike me too much since you'll probably consider me a hard-line skeptic.

Thanks for wishing me luck although I'm having a hard time figuring out if you're being condescending or not.

Welcome to the forums by the way.
 
Yet people still like to equate science to a type of religion. I just chalk it up to not understanding the difference.

If there is any convincing case to be made for science as a religion, it's this: like medieval clergy, who interpreted scripture to a population that either couldn't read Greek and Latin or couldn't read at all, scientists read the text of reality and dictate their interpretations to the scientifically illiterate masses. A certain group of scholars quite literally owns knowledge about our world, and they dole it out to the rest in dumbed-down form. Example: I believe in anthropocentric global warming. But I do not believe in it because I have sat down with the data and confirmed, to my own satisfaction, that the climatologists are right about it. It would take a PhD in a field other than my own to do this. I believe in anthropocentric global warming because a group of researchers who have a set of skills that I lack have told me that there's enbough evidence for AGW to believe that it is true. Unless I want to switch fields, I will never be in a position to state with any authority that their findings are either accurate or inaccurate. I just have to have faith in them, and I do. But I recognize it as faith.

Maybe at one point in history, anybody could check experimental results for themselves. But we're past that point. Anyone can drop two objects from a balcony and see if they land at the same time, but not everyone has access to computing models for climate change, and even if they did hardly anyone would know how to use them. Not everyone can build a Large Hadron Collider in their backyard to check for themselves whether the team at the LHC is on the right track. Scientific study has become so specialized and dependent upon access to expensive experimental apparatus that even the more scientifically literate portion of the general population is in no position whatsoever to know whether the findings of experts in any given field are valid or not.

Most of us have little choice but to sit and wait for the scientific priesthood to read the world for us and to dictate "The mind of God" (to use Hawking's phrase) to us.
 
Thanks..
Sorry if I come off condescending...but no.. maybe flippant, because I don't think anyone has a good handle on their decisions.. no matter how much they think they do. This includes myself which makes purchasing TP very difficult added to the number of choices... you would think i was incompetent..

EVP are they not evidence? I've had the personal experience, so It's not a question for me.. though when I was a flaming atheist I tried to make up all sorts of excuses for these experiences. But after some life changes.. I decided to stop denying my reality. Which is really interesting thing to try.
 
If there is any convincing case to be made for science as a religion, it's this: like medieval clergy, who interpreted scripture to a population that either couldn't read Greek and Latin or couldn't read at all, scientists read the text of reality and dictate their interpretations to the scientifically illiterate masses. A certain group of scholars quite literally owns knowledge about our world, and they dole it out to the rest in dumbed-down form. Example: I believe in anthropocentric global warming. But I do not believe in it because I have sat down with the data and confirmed, to my own satisfaction, that the climatologists are right about it. It would take a PhD in a field other than my own to do this. I believe in anthropocentric global warming because a group of researchers who have a set of skills that I lack have told me that there's enbough evidence for AGW to believe that it is true. Unless I want to switch fields, I will never be in a position to state with any authority that their findings are either accurate or inaccurate. I just have to have faith in them, and I do. But I recognize it as faith.

Maybe at one point in history, anybody could check experimental results for themselves. But we're past that point. Anyone can drop two objects from a balcony and see if they land at the same time, but not everyone has access to computing models for climate change, and even if they did hardly anyone would know how to use them. Not everyone can build a Large Hadron Collider in their backyard to check for themselves whether the team at the LHC is on the right track. Scientific study has become so specialized and dependent upon access to expensive experimental apparatus that even the more scientifically literate portion of the general population is in no position whatsoever to know whether the findings of experts in any given field are valid or not.

Most of us have little choice but to sit and wait for the scientific priesthood to read the world for us and to dictate "The mind of God" (to use Hawking's phrase) to us.

The difference is that science uses evidence and religion does not. A scientist can say, "Here's the physical evidence as to why we think this is the case."
Having grown up Catholic and knowing a lot about the Catholic faith, I can tell you with certainty that if you ask for physical proof of anything, you will not get it from the church since there's none there. It's literally based on faith. You may have faith in a scientist, I get that, but they did not base their discoveries on faith, they came to a conclusion through observations. I see a big difference there.
 
If there is any convincing case to be made for science as a religion, it's this: like medieval clergy, who interpreted scripture to a population that either couldn't read Greek and Latin or couldn't read at all, scientists read the text of reality and dictate their interpretations to the scientifically illiterate masses. A certain group of scholars quite literally owns knowledge about our world, and they dole it out to the rest in dumbed-down form. Example: I believe in anthropocentric global warming. But I do not believe in it because I have sat down with the data and confirmed, to my own satisfaction, that the climatologists are right about it. It would take a PhD in a field other than my own to do this. I believe in anthropocentric global warming because a group of researchers who have a set of skills that I lack have told me that there's enbough evidence for AGW to believe that it is true. Unless I want to switch fields, I will never be in a position to state with any authority that their findings are either accurate or inaccurate. I just have to have faith in them, and I do. But I recognize it as faith.

Exactly.

So.. it comes down to source.. where you get the info and if the source is reliable. Which might help when wading through the paranormal weeds.
 
Thanks..
Sorry if I come off condescending...but no.. maybe flippant, because I don't think anyone has a good handle on their decisions.. no matter how much they think they do. This includes myself which makes purchasing TP very difficult added to the number of choices... you would think i was incompetent..

EVP are they not evidence? I've had the personal experience, so It's not a question for me.. though when I was a flaming atheist I tried to make up all sorts of excuses for these experiences. But after some life changes.. I decided to stop denying my reality. Which is really interesting thing to try.

EVPs, even the best ones, are evidence that something was recorded - that's it. Saying it's a voice from beyond the grave is a guess.

I know my reality: I love my wife, my daughter, my family, my cat. I'm not religious, although I used to be. Playing video games makes me happy, technology is cool. I'm looking forward to spring because Winter in Montreal sucks. When my 4 year old cat died last year I was extremely sad, and it still makes me sad to think about him. I know that I am interested in knowing how the world works. I am amazing at useless trivia. I wish Carl Sagan was still around to write more books and teach this generation about science in a way they can understand. I can keep writing but I'm sure you get the point.

Thanks,
A
 
The difference is that science uses evidence and religion does not. A scientist can say, "Here's the physical evidence as to why we think this is the case."
Having grown up Catholic and knowing a lot about the Catholic faith, I can tell you with certainty that if you ask for physical proof of anything, you will not get it from the church since there's none there. It's literally based on faith. You may have faith in a scientist, I get that, but they did not base their discoveries on faith, they came to a conclusion through observations. I see a big difference there.

Quite right. There is a very significant difference, and I'm in no way suggesting that scientists don't work with tangible evidence. But scientists do have a kind of faith: faith in the validity of whatever interpretive paradigm dominates their field. They have faith that their way of interpreting the evidence they collect during observations is the correct way, as opposed to some obsolete interpretive paradigm or some as-yet unformulated paradigm. The seventeenth-century and eighteenth-century scientists who believed in phlogiston had faith that their experiments with combustible materials proved the existence of a new element that flammable objects contained and non-flammable objects did not. Of course, this paradigm was eventually discredited and science corrected itself. But how many contemporary paradigms that most scientists would never question would end up on the phlogiston pile if circumstance permitted further scrutiny? And how many scientists have been treated as heretics--ostracized, persecuted--because they had faith in an interpretive paradigm that wasn't in favor at the time?

It's faith in an interpretive paradigm that determines whether an observational anomaly gets thrown out as equipment malfunction or included as usable data. It's faith in an interpretive paradigm that keeps some important data from ever entering into the conversation because it simply can't be true.

In any case, the point I was trying to make was structural and political: a small group of privileged knowers enjoys access to knowledge that a large group of ignorant laymen could never attain access. Small group reveals truth to large group. Large group must accept as a matter of faith the truth of what they're told. That structure applies to both religion and science. It's not meant to say that the two resemble each other in every way. Just that one way.

Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions is good for this stuff, as is the final episode of James Burke's classic TV series Connections.
 
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