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Zeitgeist

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I acknowledge the fact that religious debates often deteriorate into name calling but I wonder why?

This is how I feel about politics, but I kind of get it when it comes to religion.

I think the non-religious person just doesn't think of religious belief as being particularly important. But for the person who is a believer, nothing less than the very fate of your eternal soul is on the line. If there really is a heaven, and there really is a hell, and you really do have to believe a certain thing to make sure you go to one instead of the other, then this knowledge is kind of like the most important thing in the universe.

Also. . . By saying "there's no God" or "Jesus was just a dude," then you're really challenging the believer who has devoted their entire life to living according to their faith. You're basically saying they've foolishly wasted all that time. You can't expect that to be received well.
 
Well you've confused me. I took your original post as sarcasm.

In any case, I actually was at one point very much a Christian believer. Now I'm a bit ambivalent on the subject. I can be pretty outspokenly AGAINST religion, but if I find people being unfair or closed-minded and angrily attacking religion or religious people then I will turn into its defender.

At the end of the day, I understand religious belief and respect it as long as its grounded in some logical thought. The religious community has produced some pretty great thinkers, like C.S. Lewis, Soren Kierkegaard and Thomas Merton. But with that said, I personally think there may be some sort of God and some sort of spiritual reality, but I don't think any of our known religions are inspired in the way they claim to be.

Very Well Put spx
 
I was a Christian when I started my study into religion and I was an Atheist by the time I stopped.

So why did you revert to all-out atheism instead of, say, deism or agnosticism? For someone who was once a Christian I would think you'd still have the questions lingering in the air about how we all got here, how the very first speck of matter came into existence, how all the many accounts of the miraculous can be explained, etc.
 
So why did you revert to all-out atheism instead of, say, deism or agnosticism? For someone who was once a Christian I would think you'd still have the questions lingering in the air about how we all got here, how the very first speck of matter came into existence, how all the many accounts of the miraculous can be explained, etc.

Because once that road has been walked down you question all other forms of belief and semi-belief ... in the end the conclusion is the same.
 
Because once that road has been walked down you question all other forms of belief and semi-belief ... in the end the conclusion is the same.

I guess that's kind of the point of my question. I completely understand always questioning your beliefs. So don't you therefore question your atheism and have doubts about that conclusion?
 
I guess that's kind of the point of my question. I completely understand always questioning your beliefs. So don't you therefore question your atheism and have doubts about that conclusion?

No because atheism is not a belief if you get what I mean. What it means is I do not know what happens when we die and I am not going to make story's up to explain it.

I simply do not know.

Religion is a form of social control and always has been and I chose not to buy into it :)

as such with all matters of a paranormal nature I work on the principle of the Burden of proof, the person making the claim (In this case) for the existence of a god must take on that burden. I make no such claims and I do not have to take on the burden of proof from the negative position of the one who has no belief in said god/gods.
 
To me, that sounds suspiciously like agnosticism. . .

After all, the atheist says "there is no god," rather than, "I don't know. . ." And since the atheist takes a definite stance it's a belief.
 
To me, that sounds suspiciously like agnosticism. . .

After all, the atheist says "there is no god," rather than, "I don't know. . ." And since the atheist takes a definite stance it's a belief.

Not really at all.

No I am not agnostic at all. I have no belief in any form of god what so ever and I see no evidence to support the claim so far that there is one.

However I am not so up myself as to say that some thing is impossible so thus I say I do not know which is just being honest :)

In so doing I keep some what of an open mined but not so open that my brains fall out :D
 
Still sounds suspiciously like agnosticism. . .

ag·nos·tic: A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena
 
Still sounds suspiciously like agnosticism. . .

ag·nos·tic: A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena

But that is not how I feel about it at all.

I am for the most part just being polite SPX :D as my real opinion on the matter of god and religion is very brutal but for sake of argument I will tell you.

Punches are still being pulled here mind :p

I think religion is a scam and the Idea of an all seeing and knowing God is a joke.
It makes no logical sense to me and I have never been given any evidence that would even begin to persuade me that there is one beyond a reasonable doubt.
I find religion repugnant for its history of what can only be described as mental and social rape.
It is repressive and backward.
And I frankly have no need for the mental poison for which it represents.

"God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance." .... That I can believe.

Not being nasty it is just how I feel on the matter.

For all the years I was in the study of religion I was looking for an answer and I found one.... "Just be you and be kind"

I did not need a god to tell me that and it was not from any religious text that I found that.

Peace SPX and I mean no insult it is how I feel.
 
Well I certainly don't feel insulted. I'm a true agnostic . . . I know that I don't know. Maybe we can't know. Even if God appeared to me tomorrow I'd have to wonder if I imagined it, or if I as being tricked by an evil genie (Descartes), or if I am in the matrix. We really could be in the matrix, after all. It's not like we'd know.

I think that you can consider the existence of a god beyond our normal religious conceptions, though. I do think there's some actual evidence to suggest a reality beyond the one we see: near-death experiences, after-death communications, etc. Though I guess there could be such a reality without an all-seeing god.

One thing I do know though (f0r me at least): The idea of an invisible man in the sky who knows everything you do is ridiculous. But the idea of matter just spontaneously coming into existence out of nowhere is equally ridiculous (or the idea of matter always existing).

So I guess at the end of the day it's about which ridiculous things you're going to believe (or lean toward).
 
BTW Stonehart, you really should look into Acharya S's books. She is all about the astrotheological underpinnings of Christianity and religion being intentionally used by those in power to control the masses.

I'm reading "The Christ Conspiracy," but it was her first book and kind of rough around the edges. I've heard her later books--"Suns of God" and "Christ in Egypt"--are better.

In fact, mainstream scholar Robert Price reviewed the latter work:

Review - D.M. Murdock (Acharya S.), Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection reviewed by Robert M. Price
 
I have a copy of Christ conspiracy myself, its a great book imo

And she slam dunks the case for astrotheological underpinnings for not just Xstianity, but other myths as well.

So what are we left with, conclusions drawn about the nature of the universe taken from observations of the natural world.

That in and of itself isnt a bad thing, but where religion is concerned the nature of those conclusions are more than just a bit of a stretch, they are ludicrous.

To a person who doesnt have a spiritual dog in the fight, the bible and other texts read like bad Sci Fi.


We may not know the hows and whys of how the universe came into being yet, but the suggestion some singular intellect "created" it and us is just simplistic hogwash.

Observing the universe as it is there is not a shred of empirical proof even suggesting such a thing is true, its simplistic myth nothing more.

Great way to keep up with Ms Murdock

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Thats just nuts isnt it ?
 
I have a copy of Christ conspiracy myself, its a great book imo

And she slam dunks the case for astrotheological underpinnings for not just Xstianity, but other myths as well.

I am sympathetic to her writings and have been doing as much research on it as I can, but I can't just accept what she writes at face value. Even most secular scholars do not agree with her connections. So I need to figure out how she arrived at her conclusions and see if I agree.


That in and of itself isnt a bad thing, but where religion is concerned the nature of those conclusions are more than just a bit of a stretch, they are ludicrous.

I think the real question is why many of the writers of religious texts arrived at the conclusions that they did. For instance, I live in Utah. There are a lot of Mormons here. Did Joseph Smith just make everything up or did something really happen that lead him to believe he was in contact with the supernatural? I dunno. . .

Maybe there's a trickster element to all this, like Chris O'Brien likes to talks about.

Speaking of which. . .


trixter1.jpg





To a person who doesnt have a spiritual dog in the fight, the bible and other texts read like bad Sci Fi.

I think we should be focusing on the parallels. For instance, why do we stories show up all around the world of a massive flood? Why do we find supposed instances of demon possession in all cultures?


We may not know the hows and whys of how the universe came into being yet, but the suggestion some singular intellect "created" it and us is just simplistic hogwash.

Do you have a better idea?

I guess for me "it just happened" is equally hogwash.

Or: "Biological life sprang from inanimate matter." Hmm. . .


Observing the universe as it is there is not a shred of empirical proof even suggesting such a thing is true, its simplistic myth nothing more.

I hate being pushed into the position of a religious apologist, but I do think an interesting case can be made for Christianity from historical, scientific, archaeological grounds. It's not a case that I agree with, but I don't think faith is necessarily an unreasonable standpoint.



Thanks for the heads up.


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Thats just nuts isnt it ?



Word.
 
To me its logical that the conclusions drawn by humans thousands of years ago , including the existance of "gods" , the peak of whose scientific sophistication was being able to make bronze, has to be trumped by modern science.

To me modern astrophysics is a better explanation.

As for floods , this has been done to death.

Floods are big deals, we had some in australia recently lots of people get killed homes destroyed, they happen all over the world.
Its no surprise large floods make it into the oral traditions of people the world over.

They are big deals, they do stick in the memory, but a global flood ? thats just a silly myth

This is a closed system, where did it come from, and where did it go, the noah story is one of the most absurd of the biblical collection.
When disected with a rational mind, its simply not possible for it to have taken place as written

If a purported miracle gives an indication of the mechanism – as is the case with the flood story – then one might expect the evidence left behind to be consistent with that mechanism. But when narrative and evidence is closely examined there is much that does not seem to add up.
Consider now three articles[4] – available on the internet – that strongly criticize the flood story as interpreted by AIG/ICR. The following bullets are my words but the ideas are redacted from those articles. They represent only a small subset of the objections concerning the veracity of the YEC interpretation. I would encourage you to read the articles in their entirety, to get a clearer sense of the arguments employed.
Critics’ objections to the flood story as understood by YEC apologists:
· “all living creatures” into the ark means:
o species now extinct must be included.
o insects, arachnids, worms, bacteria, amphibians etc., that we usually don’t think of, must also go into the ark.
o all aquatic creatures including whales, jellyfish, fresh-water fish, mollusks, coral, etc. must be preserved in the ark as most water-resident life could not survive the sediment-filled waters of a YEC-style flood event.
· Gathering the animals probably must be attributed to miracle, otherwise:
o Some land animals would have to swim oceans.
o How would they bring their various special diets with them during the long journey?
· Ark space issues:
o YEC estimates on the number of animals vary, trying to get the total down as much as possible. But the various totals either ignore large categories (like extinct or marine animals) or they think a representative sample (a “kind”) can, post-flood, produce the genetic variety we see today. But to get present diversity from a single “kind” pair would constitute massive post-flood evolution, far exceeding anything we observe.
o Non-animal space: food for about a year, water for at least part of that time (after the rain stopped), flooring, compartments, human living quarters – would consume a significant percentage of the Ark’s capacity.
o storage for all kinds of plants/seeds because almost nothing would regenerate on its own post-flood from outside the ark after the amount of postulated violence, then sediment deposited.
o The ark had 1,518,750 cubic feet maximum (assuming a rectangle), perhaps half consumed for non-animal purposes. Even a very low example figure of 50,000 animals (at 2 or 7 per “kind” this doesn’t represent many species), would give an average of 15 cubic feet per animal. However, one critic states the number of species that would have to have been alive (to provide the fossil diversity found) would be more like 1.87 million species – of which at least a pair of each would be required.
· Loading the ark: 7 days and, even if we assume a low figure of 50,000 animals, then 1 animal must be loaded every 12 seconds – from gangplank to cage.
· Boat limitations: A 450 ft long boat exceeds the physical limit of wooden boat design. 300 feet is an upper limit before structural deformation and instability is inevitable. The longest known wooden ship ever built (19th century) was 329 feet and was found to be an untenable design. Thus 450 feet challenges the laws of physics.
· Caring for the animals:
o How would special food be obtained by Noah for some animals – e.g. eucalyptus leaves for koalas, bamboo shoots for pandas, plankton for whales, etc.
o The amount of turbulence during the voyage (given the presumed catastrophic external activity) would have been very harmful to the animals’ health (let alone structural integrity of the boat).
o Even considering a low figure of 50,000 animals, if all eight of the crew worked every day, 16 hrs/day, then each individual animal would wind up with about 1 hour of attention during the entire year. This would not have kept them fed/watered and their waste removed.
· Sediment depth post-flood averages 1 mile, some is essentially 100% fossil (e.g. chalk). If even only .1% of that sediment was considered to be from animals, the living equivalents would cover the entire earth to a depth of 1 ½ feet.
· To deposit as much sediment as YEC estimates the ratio of water to sediment would be 2:1. That much thick muddy water would kill virtually all marine life.
· The Karoo Supergroup (southern Africa) has an estimated (from fossil count) 800 billion animals. All would have to have been alive at the flood, per YEC assumptions. This would amount to 21 per acre on average for the entire planet. But they wound up in one location so the density would likely have been greater. And that’s just one fossiliferous geologic formation.
· Repopulation:
o If the entire Phanerozoic portion of the geologic column was deposited during the flood year, very little plant life or seeds would have survived for re-growth so post-flood Noah would have to replant across virtually the entire planet.
o The world’s food chain would have collapsed. The animals, e.g. carnivores, would have nothing to eat except each other or year-old rotting carcasses.
o How will the pairs stay together to mate and with sufficient success to repopulate? You would expect them to run away randomly upon disembarking.
o Some animals need special circumstances to mate – environment, presence of others of the species, etc.
o How would animals cross oceans to get to their present locations?
There may be plausible answers to some of these objections. And miracle obviously comes into play for some of the actions beyond just the flood water itself. But not all miracles are equally plausible. And some consequences of literal thinking here seem very problematic.

Whats more likely ?

That the biblical flood is literally true thus prompting global flood myths, or the reality that floods do occur the world over, that they are a big deal to those who experience and survive them and that these events would become part of the local oral tradition.
 
but I don't think faith is necessarily an unreasonable standpoint

A four year old child has "faith" santa is real, is able to draw a solid conclusion from both observing the tree and presents, and is told by the generation before it its true......

Does that childs faith and observations make santa real ?

In this example faith is undeniably absolutely unreasonable as a basis to insist santa is real, what makes your example different ?
 
To me its logical that the conclusions drawn by humans thousands of years ago , including the existance of "gods" , the peak of whose scientific sophistication was being able to make bronze, has to be trumped by modern science.

To me modern astrophysics is a better explanation.

Why does it have to be either/or? Why can't it be something out-of-the-box that we just haven't figured out yet?

Again, modern science has no realistic explanation for how the first, tiniest speck of matter that "banged" came into existence. After all, matter can neither be created nor destroyed, right? Nor does modern science have an explanation for how life could result from inanimate matter.

Even the top evolutionary scientists will tell you--as I have heard many times--that if someone tells you they have the answers to these questions from a scientific perspective then they are lying to you.

Maybe the science of tomorrow will . . . but not the science of today.

So what is your answer for that? Do you just have faith that it will get figured out?


Whats more likely ?

That the biblical flood is literally true thus prompting global flood myths, or the reality that floods do occur the world over, that they are a big deal to those who experience and survive them and that these events would become part of the local oral tradition.

Again, this seems like either/or thinking. I.e. either it's the genesis account or it's local floods.

Why can't it be a global flood that each culture endured and then took that kernel of truth and built a myth around?
 
A four year old child has "faith" santa is real, is able to draw a solid conclusion from both observing the tree and presents, and is told by the generation before it its true......

Does that childs faith and observations make santa real ?

In this example faith is undeniably absolutely unreasonable as a basis to insist santa is real, what makes your example different ?


Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, we all live our lives on faith. That is absolutely, positively indisputable.

I have faith that the sun will rise in the east and set in the west tomorrow. This is based upon prior observations. But tomorrow isn't here yet, so for now, it's a matter of faith.

I also have faith that when I go to sleep, I will wake up the next day. Though one day that might not be true.

And I have faith, as I mentioned earlier, that I'm in a real, physical world and not living in the matrix. But I can't prove that.

It's all about faith and belief, based upon prior experiences. And any of the above could one day prove to be wrong.

As for Christians, like I said before, I was at one time a Christian and I got pretty deep into the study of apologetics. Ultimately, for me, the arguments weren't convincing. But there are a lot of people who disagree. I'm not going to tell C. S. Lewis he was a fool just because we reached different conclusions.
 
But "The Grand Design" seems to step away from that, saying physics can explain things without the need for a "benevolent creator who made the Universe for our benefit."
"Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing," the excerpt says. "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to ... set the Universe going."
Stephen Hawking: God NOT Needed For Creation

As for the either or flood question.

We Know floods take place, we know they take place the world over, we know they leave a lasting impression of those who experience them, we also know the fossil record does not match the account of noahs flood, we know its just not possible for it to have happened

The Great Pyramid of Cheops was built about 2589-2566 BC, about 230 years before the flood, yet it has no water marks on it. The Djoser Step Pyramid at Saqqara, Egypt, built about 2630 BC doesn't show any signs of having been under water. Likewise for many other ancient structures. But even more importantly, the Egyptians have continuous historical records for hundreds of years before and after the time of the flood that make no mention of a great flood. This shows that they were not only not aware of a global flood, they certainly were not greatly affected by one. Outside of the Bible, there is no historical or physical evidence that would place a worldwide flood during the time period specified by the Bible for the great flood.

Where did the water needed for the flood come from? Where did it go? The atmosphere only holds enough moisture to account for about an inch of water worldwide. To cover even Mount Ararat, where Noah's Ark supposedly landed after the flood, in 40 days would require over 400 feet of water per day. That's not 400 inches, but 400 feet a day. And Everest would require 725 feet per day - that's 30 feet of water per hour

How much water would it take?
The total volume of water on Earth is about 1.4 billion cubic kilometers www.space.com, USGS.gov
Volume of a sphere = 4/3
pi_a.gif
r3 where r=radius
Radius of Earth = 6,378.15 Kilometers
Height of Mt. Everest = 8.85 Kilometers
The volume of water needed to cover Earth to the height of Mt. Everest is approximately the difference in volume of a sphere needed to encompass Mt. Everest and the volume of a sphere the size of the Earth.
Volume of a sphere encompassing the Earth at sea level
= 4/3
pi_a.gif
(6,378.15 KM)3 = 1,086,825,918,019 KM3
Volume of a sphere encompassing Mt. Everest
= 4/3
pi_a.gif
(6,378.15 + 8.85 KM)3 = 1,091,388,460,971 KM3
The Difference = 4,530,488,766 KM3
Notice that this is more than 3 TIMES the amount of water presently on Earth.

Just about every major point of the Noah's ark story is in stark contrast with the observable world and science as we know it. A world wide flood would leave massive amounts of geological evidence behind; and it just doesn't exist.
Every ancient culture had its history and its mythology. When an ancient culture records stories about talking snakes, magic fruit, people living inside of giant fish, and gathering representative members of every species of animal and living on a boat for almost a year, one should automatically realize that they were recording their mythology and not their history.
Noah's Flood - What does the Evidence Say?
 
Bertrand Russell noted, "Where there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith'. We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence"

You dont need faith that the sun will come up tomorrow, we have a long chain of evidence that supports the prediction it will.
We know the sun is real, we understand the mechanism of sunrise, we can thus predict with great great accuracy it will rise tomorrow.

Faith plays no part in it

Faith is a human construct, the sun was rising long before there were humans on earth and we can predict based on the evidence it would do so after we are gone.

Its a superfluous construct , its not needed.

Faith is typically used as a substitute for evidence, in the context of religious discussion this is doubly so.

We have more than enough evidence and understanding of the mechanism of sunrise to predict it will rise tomorrow.

We dont need faith
 
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