12-9-07 show

[Gene Steinberg]

Gene wrote...

The sighting in Venezuela, for example, where there were thousands of witnesses.

In saying that, I don't doubt that some might have been published. But David was a child at the time of some of these events, and thus wasn't apt to research it then. But he's curious now to learn more.

Agreed. I have never seen or read anything about this Venezuelan sighting. As described by David, this would have been an earth shattering event--huge, vanishing instantaneously, seen by thousands, etc. Where's the evidence? Simple, no? If any sighting should be easy to corroborate, this is it. Yet the only evidence is David's anecdote. That wouldn't suffice for any of your guests yet it's acceptable for David.

As to Paranormal Packrat deleting my prior post, you recovered it just fine. No harm, no foul, no apology necessary. (Fortunately, I'm not one of those conspiracists...but I'd best leave that alone for now!)

What about his brother, who was also present on the original episode where they talked about this sighting?

Or the apparition he talked about, where his friend, another witness, was also present and on the show?

You seem to have forgotten key aspects of David's experiences, in which most involved other witnesses that can be contacted for verification.

 

[David Biedny]

Gene, my brother and Bill were obviously hallucinating, as were my parents and the many other people who saw the craft in Caracas in 1974. Everyone who has ever seen a UFO, apparition or any other paranormal element is obviously hallucinating.

And consider that many people hallucinate every day, when they think that the U.S. is spreading peace, freedom and democracy throughout the world. They hallucinate that the awesome force and intelligence responsible for this Universe is intimately involved in their lives, listens to their prayers for a better car, better job and longer-lasting erection and jumps right to the task of providing everything demanded by the talking-monkeys-with-no-tails.

And here I am, sharing these stories with our audience, as I'm some lonely psycho, with an urgent need for people to listen to me. As I have no friends or loved ones - only folks who go to church and watch football are allowed such luxuries - I do the Paracast in order to express myself to all 6 people who regularly listen to the program. Their opinions and acceptance of my reality is what drives me, gives me strength and purpose, defines my very existence. I have no professional reputation to speak of, have never authored articles, books or opinion columns, have no respect amongst my peers, and can't tie my own shoes.



Memories are indeed subject to some haziness over the years - my comment about Jack Koehler was made off the cuff, I just knew that he was in the Reagan administration for a short amount of time, and left because of the less-than-public revelations regarding his youth in Germany - but my memories of these rather huge paranormal events are pretty darned clear. Also, I don't remember saying that my brother has no memory of what happened, it's just not as clear as mine. But there are those who hear what they want to hear, and I really, truly wish they would go find somewhere else to express themselves. But they're the kind of people who just have to makes their opinions known to someone, anyone who will let them vent. So be it. As I've said before, these folks have no bearing or influence on my life or experiences. I don't feel like I have to prove anything to them, or anyone, for that matter.

dB

 

[David Biedny]

And then there's the experience I had with my friend Jaime, who works at Business Week - he's agreed to come on the show and go public with me, and man, it's a doozie.

When the time is right, this will happen, but not until then.

dB

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Meantime, David, don't let the naysayers get you down. I think the one in question here only wishes he could have an experience identical to any one that you've had. As they say, however, be careful what you wish for...

 

[Verum]

Gene wrote..

What about his brother, who was also present on the original episode where they talked about this sighting?

Or the apparition he talked about, where his friend, another witness, was also present and on the show?

As to the faceless, disappearing girl, let's forget that for now. There will never be any documentation for that as anything more than a campfire story, so let's forget it and those with a low evidentiary threshold can accept it for what it's worth. (Let's remember that there is substantial support for the premise that one's memories can be influenced by others', especially after repeated retelling over time.) So let's focus on the Caracas sighting. Thousands supposedly saw this extraordinary event, over a major city. All I'm suggesting is that it's reasonable to document that claim with public records, testimony from objective persons, news reports. Where are they? Why no attempt to secure them? Wouldn't proof of such a thing be a game-changing occurrence, especially by someone seeking credibility in a field which so lacks opportunities for solid evidence? Prove one event and credibility for the other instances--we now know of at least 5 "odd events" to which David has been privy so far--goes way up.

I find it interesting that David ignores a simple suggestion--one he'd find acceptable to make to a similarly-situated guest--that he prove the key facts underlying his extraordinary claims. In this case, nothing could be easier. This isn't two people alone in the woods seeing a bigfoot. This is thousands of people seeing an enormous object over a metropolis, an object which then "blinks out". I can accept the existence of events which are inexplicable. I can not accept that we should, however, simply accept that the event actually occurred, in the absence of evidence for the underlying elements which are critical. In this case, I'm simply suggesting documenting that thousands of other people saw the same thing, at the same time. Is there any event of the last 50 years that's been witnessed by thousands that couldn't be documented?

I am also interested in David's refutation of the hallucination theory even if we accept his contention that thousands saw the same thing. And he has yet to respond to the fact that an estimated 50,000 people saw the spinning sun of Lourdes; mass hallucination or religious event? Of course there's a lot more documentation for that than for the Caracas sighting, as of now.

Now if my reputation and credibility were at stake I'd be inclined to address the issues at hand and avoid continuing ad hominem attacks. I have raised reasonable issues by someone who offered these issues for public consideration. Of course, when one attacks another person's religious beliefs--even though they know nothing about those beliefs (remember, David's entire ludicrous rant is based entirely on my simple comment that I was going to church with my family!)--it speaks volumes about the core values of the attacker.

 

[Miah]

I have to at least agree to what Verum has said in the single post above.

Yes, please do take the time to address my sincere questions. I am interested is all, not here to call you a liar.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

What sort of documentation do you expect to receive about the disappearing girl encounter? Did you somehow expect David and his friend to break out the test gear and try to photograph that person?

David can speak to his personal experiences, most of which were witnessed by others. He wasn't alive during the incident at Lourdes, obviously.

 

[Miah]

What sort of documentation do you expect to receive about the disappearing girl encounter? Did you somehow expect David and his friend to break out the test gear and try to photograph that person?

David can speak to his personal experiences, most of which were witnessed by others. He wasn't alive during the incident at Lourdes, obviously.

He did basically say that we understand it cannot be verified because only 2 people saw it, and to focus on the big event.

 

[David Biedny]

Verum,

Please, feel free not to believe a word I say.

I don't care what you believe, it makes no difference to me. Grok it already.

I have indeed tried to secure a copy of the cover of either El Universal or 2001 for that month (I don't recall the exact date, must be my bad memory), I have been told that I will have to show up, pay a fee, and go through the records myself. Also, consider that at this point, an American calling a Venezuelan newspaper and asking for help is going to run into some issues, as I have, even with my fluent Spanish. If you think I would not like to have a copy of that paper, you're daft.

Meanwhile, you've accused my brother and close friend Bill of being liars, so kindly fuck off.

dB

 

[Miah]

Repost, in case you missed it:

Miah,

I have no idea of how to track down Mr. Ferris (I'm not even sure if this is how his name is spelled), but I doubt he'd still be alive. He was older than my father, who would be in his late eighties if he were still among the living.

If you can just give me the address you lived at at the time, which side of you his house was on and the year, I think I can at least get his full name. From there who knows what we might find, perhaps a relative he shared the experience with.

While I understand your point about listing my paranormal episodes, it simply won't happen, as I am not seeking confirmation from the Paracast audience - or anyone else - as to the veracity of my experiences.

I was hoping for a simple number rather than a list of the experiences. The point is if you came up with a new experience every few months people are going to start talking shit. But if you've given a number up front, people can at least gauge just how crazy things have been around you through your life, and what might possibly be revealed to us at some point.

Though I understand that you don't care about what people think, without a number one could speculate that you have had tons of experiences, which would make one wonder if they were somehow psychological in nature. You've also gone this far in revealing some very off-the-wall stuff, a skeptic might ask why trickle out the rest?

I feel comfortable in saying that you seem very genuine about your experiences, and I really appreciate you sharing them with us. I have never seen anything that I could consider paranormal, and am here seeking answers from those who have, and those who study it. I would be a fool not to still be skeptical about the whole subject from my limited perspective.

Also to add, I am just curious yes/no, have you ever been abducted?

You guys decided instead of being interviewed with tough questions on your last show that you would simply talk to each other, so I just figured I would ask you some good ones here

 

[Aaron LeClair]

And then there's the experience I had with my friend Jaime, who works at Business Week - he's agreed to come on the show and go public with me, and man, it's a doozie.

When the time is right, this will happen, but not until then.

dB

Don't forget Annie V.

I'm curious what factors are involved in the timing being right? You just waiting for enough air time, or are other factors involved?

 

[Poi]

Geeze. The show was one of my favorites. Seemed like a good time to toss that in.

 

[Verum]

David wrote..

Meanwhile, you've accused my brother and close friend Bill of being liars, so kindly fuck off.

I did? When did I do that?

As to documenting your Caracas sighting, why not go through contacts at MUFON or maybe Bill Birnes and ask for them to put you in touch with a credible Venezuelan investigator? Imagine the impact on "ufology" if you could document your sighting, getting confirmation from even 50 of the thousands, with press reports. Is it possible your parents saved copies of the newspaper reports at the time? There are certainly ways to document your sighting, with a will to do so and a certainty as to the outcome being the only real impediments.

As to Gene's comments about David not being able to address Lourdes since he wasn't there, of course I never asked that David provide testimony as to Lourdes. I presented that in response to David's position that, because thousands of people saw the Caracas object (a still unsubstantiated contention), it could not possibly be an hallucination. Obviously, unless one accepts the miraculous events at Lourdes as just that, mass hallucinations are possible and have happened....and can be documented. One can't have it both ways, I think. Is that an unreasonable position?

I must say I'm intrigued by the oddly tangential and emotional reactions to a few very legitimate inquiries.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

David wrote..

Meanwhile, you've accused my brother and close friend Bill of being liars, so kindly fuck off.

I did? When did I do that?

As to documenting your Caracas sighting, why not go through contacts at MUFON or maybe Bill Birnes and ask for them to put you in touch with a credible Venezuelan investigator? Imagine the impact on "ufology" if you could document your sighting, getting confirmation from even 50 of the thousands, with press reports. Is it possible your parents saved copies of the newspaper reports at the time? There are certainly ways to document your sighting, with a will to do so and a certainty as to the outcome being the only real impediments.

As to Gene's comments about David not being able to address Lourdes since he wasn't there, of course I never asked that David provide testimony as to Lourdes. I presented that in response to David's position that, because thousands of people saw the Caracas object (a still unsubstantiated contention), it could not possibly be an hallucination. Obviously, unless one accepts the miraculous events at Lourdes as just that, mass hallucinations are possible and have happened....and can be documented. One can't have it both ways, I think. Is that an unreasonable position?

I must say I'm intrigued by the oddly tangential and emotional reactions to a few very legitimate inquiries.

Since you asked, David has asked people about a proper contact in Venezuela, and I'm sure he'd welcome your suggestions, if you have any to offer. But I doubt that you have anything more to do than make complaints.

 

[Verum]

Gene wrote...

Since you asked, David has asked people about a proper contact in Venezuela, and I'm sure he'd welcome your suggestions, if you have any to offer.

Well, I just offered 2 very concrete suggestions about finding a liaison in Venezuela, in the very post you quoted. Do those not constitute suggestions; were they just more of the "complaints" you claim I'm raising? Seriously, though, doesn't it concern you that you're appearing very duplicitous in not demanding the same minimal level of documentary support for extraordinary claims as you have many times demanded from your guests?

 

[Poi]

Obviously, unless one accepts the miraculous events at Lourdes as just that, mass hallucinations are possible and have happened....and can be documented. One can't have it both ways, I think. Is that an unreasonable position?

If you think in strict terms of a black and white world, no. Could have been both of those things going on at once, but if one chooses to see what makes him most comfortable, well, black and white can serve a purpose.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Obviously, unless one accepts the miraculous events at Lourdes as just that, mass hallucinations are possible and have happened....and can be documented. One can't have it both ways, I think. Is that an unreasonable position?

If you think in strict terms of a black and white world, no. Could have been both of those things going on at once, but if one chooses to see what makes him most comfortable, well, black and white can serve a purpose.

We do not know whether or not the incident at Lourdes was a mass hallucination or not, or whether that applies to the sighting David, his family and many others had in Venezuela. You just want to look at the dark side of this, clearly.

 

[Verum]

Poi wrote...

Could have been both of those things going on at once,

Agreed. It could have been a miraculous mass hallucination.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Poi wrote...

Could have been both of those things going on at once,

Agreed. It could have been a miraculous mass hallucination.

Or not.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I personally don't think there is a such "thing" as mass hallucinations. I think there are illusions, and mis interpretations though.